Thanks for posting longwayhome and MyExodus. If you can, please let me know where you are in your journeys and particularly how your son (longwayhome) and daughter (MyExodus) are coping with your situations. In response to 2naive's questions: 

1. I'm more than 3 years out from D day and still trying to get my head around things.

Gosh...so sorry you're still struggling my friend. Question: are you still married? 

2. Do straight men suspect or know a closeted gay man easily? Especially when discussing women ie; finding them attractive or sexually desirable?

I reckon you'd have to ask a straight man my friend as I am 100% gay, with zero attraction to women. However, I am happy to share my personal experience and opinions so here goes. Most straight men I know, like my brother-in-law, are totally clueless when it comes to gay men and they have zero gaydar. In my experience, straight (and not straight acting) men see homosexuality like they see modern art: they just don't get it. However, if a "straight" man talks about the gays, acts anti-gay, and constantly labels others "gay" or "f*ggot" then I just assume he's closeted. Women, on the other hand, can usually sniff out a gay man in about 10 seconds. 

3. How do they, both the closeted gay and straights tend to deal with each other in friendship situations, work relationships or as neighbors?

Again I can only share my personal experience. Growing up I had a number of straight friends I secretly lusted after. Looking back, my friendships with straight males were totally f*cked up because of the one-sided sexual tension I caused. I was highly possessive, jealous, and exclusive with my straight male friends while they were completely clueless of my burning sexual desire. 

4. Do closeted gay men realize that they are not fooling a straight man on topics such as their phony marriage?

That wasn't my experience. Most of the straight friends I had as a closeted husband/father were so clueless they never even thought I was gay. I reckon straight men just aren't that intuitive. However, most women and bicurious, closeted, or out gay men knew I was gay...immediately. Funny you should bring this up. I was talking to a female co-worker, let's call her Mary. Mary and I were discussing another (male) co-worker. Let's call him Mike. Roughly 30 seconds in to a recent Zoom call, I knew Mike was gay and brought this up in conversation a week later with Mary. I asked if he had a boyfriend. Mary told me Mike was married to a woman and I commented, "Well Mike's wife is in for quite a surprise because he's as gay as a rainbow." There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Mike is gay: the voice; the demeanour; and some rather telling references to loving Broadway and Madonna. So what's my point? If you really want to know if your husband/partner is gay, just ask another gay man.      

5. Hope this isn't a ridiculous thought.

Not at all. 

6. Now that I'm aware of closeted gay men faking straight, it seems like their straight colleagues are playing along too or are they expressing doubts among each other when the gay man is not present?

Again I reckon you don't understand how truly indifferent/clueless straight men are about gay men and homosexuality. Most straight guys I know can't even find the mustard in their fridges, let alone determine a man's sexuality. And if a supposed "straight" guy obsesses about another man's sexuality, he's probably closeted himself.

I hope I've answered your questions 2naive. If not, please feel free to post again. Be well! 

Last edited by Séan (March 30, 2021 1:31 pm)

Thank you for posting 2naive and Oliviap. In reply:

2naive:

1. I notice closeted gay men interacting with obvious straight men and wonder if the closeted man attempts to fit in with the straight guy's talk of lusting after women or if they stay silent. How did you deal with 'guy talk' regarding the straight men around you checking out women. It seems like a closeted gay man would try to keep his cover and would have to fake some sort of a reply? These thoughts got me wondering what my ex said about me, his spouse, to straight men.

We older gay men will sometimes lower our voices and "butch it up" when around straight guys. Pre-COVID it was something I joked about with my gay friends..."Ok so everybody put on your straight voice now because we're going out." In response to your questions, I myself was terrible at guy talk because, like a lot of gay men, I had zero interest in organized sports and man hobbies. I was good at pretending I was interested in women because I'd been doing it since age 5 or 6 when I was first asked, "Do you have a girlfriend?" Where I really excelled was in giving Oscar-worthy performances as "the perfect husband" in front of friends and family. Like a lot of gay men, I was super attentive to the needs of others (think of any business-class American Airlines steward or hairdresser). For me personally, I was very attentive and loving towards my wife, particularly in front of others, but it was 100% platonic.  

Oliviap:

2. "Women, on the other hand, can usually sniff out a gay man in about 10 seconds." I do not agree with Sean on this statement. If women can sniff out a gay man that easily, why do we marry them?

Is there a face palm emoji? You are 100% correct! 

2. Also had this been true, I would not have stayed in a marriage for 38 years whilst knowing my STBX is gay. I did not realize that he is gay until he told me in so many words. He actually told me "and by the way I am gay"(his exact words)  7 months ago in a rather aggressive way.

Wow...what a pr*ck! Again fair points although most straight wives I interact with instinctively knew something was wrong at the start of their relationships because he never seemed interested in (hetero) sex. And most women start playing detective because they no longer have sex with their closeted husbands. Question: how was your sex life with this man? 

3. He also appointed about 5 male employees in the past two years who are gay and I was oblivious to the fact that these men were either married to men or have a relationship with a man.

Understood. 

4. I really wish that I had that gay radar! My brother who is 100% straight did tell me that he always thought my husband could be gay, unluckily after the fact.

Interesting. Question: did your brother say it from the beginning or just recently? 

5. My husband's sister, who is also gay and with whom he has a  close relationship, was very surprised when my husband came out as being gay at the age of nearly 61 years.

Age/generation may explain the disconnect with my prior "gaydar" post and your experience. Allow me to explain. In my experience, the older the generation, the darker the closet and deeper the denial. While younger people in their teens and 20s have fewer issues with being LGBTQ, 40-somethings like me are divided between the "out and proud" and "discreet" people who still prefer to pass as straight. With my 50-60 year old friends, many still suffer from a form of PTSD because, for that generation, being gay often meant lost jobs, isolation from friends and family, and sometimes jail for "lewd conduct."  

6. Like me, she never suspected anything. My point is that contrary to Sean's statement, not all woman have gay radars.

Totally agree and my apologies if I offended in any way. Feel free to repost if you like. Be well! 

Last edited by Séan (March 31, 2021 8:22 am)

Thanks for writing friends. In reply: 

2naive: 

1. I really appreciate you for sharing your personal experiences and helping me to understand things from my ex's world view. It's helpful to me at my stage in this process. I'm finally starting to remove the negative emotion and "reframe" the past.

Well done. Don't hesitate to post again if you want more insight into the gay husband's mind. 

2. These are just some of my crazy thoughts about how did he get away with the lie for so long with everyone else in his life, especially male co-workers. I guess I'm still sorting things out.

I reckon it takes a few PTSD years to recover from an abusive gay/straight relationship. 

3. As far as my gaydar goes, it's mind blowing to watch a closeted gay man believe that he's fooling anyone. Of course, I would never bring it up, but honey please.....

I'm sure lots of people felt the same way about me not so long ago. 

4. I totally agree with your clarification on the generational differences. The Millenials and Zoomers are much more tuned-in to their sexuality. They keep coming up with more terms and categories.

True. 

5. My ex is in his 60's and from the south. I'm realizing that his lifelong denial may have been purely survival.

For me personally, I grew up in a place and time without positive gay role models. (That is unless you consider a b*tchy, deeply closeted Paul Lynde camping it up on the old "Hollywood Squares" a role model.) Now almost every mainstream television show has positive queer characters. Many women have asked me, "Didn't you know?" and my answer is always, "I did. But I just couldn't be gay at the time. Or perhaps I just didn't know how." I married because I didn't want to be gay. I just couldn't be gay. It was dirty, evil, and socially unacceptable. I did it to survive and will forever regret hurting my ex-wife and kids.    

oliviap: 

6. ...our sex life was basically non-existing in the past 5 years. The reason was not really him - I did not want to have sex because it was very painful. Previous to this we had an active sex life, but I never found it very satisfying.

It's very common for: straight spouses to think they are somehow to blame for a lack of intimacy (false); and for sex to be rather "meh" from the beginning.  

7. I was still a virgin when we started dating and I did not have anything to compare it with. It was only when he started sleeping with men 12 months prior to his confession that he did not even try to fake any intimacy - he told me he had no sex drive.

This mirrors my experience. As a gay man, I found every excuse possible to avoid sex with my (then) wife. And once I'd had sex with a man, I could no longer have sex with my wife. 

8. It also was at this stage that I started questioning his sexual orientation and I asked him if he was gay twice - he denied it. I then thought that it could be his medication that caused his lack of a sex drive.

Very few straight spouses actually hear "I'm gay" from closeted husbands. 

9. He always abused me emotionally and said things to me like "you stupid fucking bitch", "you fat fucking bitch" (I am not over-weight)and I actually said to him that he treats our gardener with more respect than me. The emotional abuse got even worse when he started sleeping with men.

What a monster. You deserve better. 

10. He is a prize prick - problem was and is that I still love him.

I'm so sorry. 

11. My story is a long and bitter one but the last thing that I ever thought was that I will divorce at the age of 60. He now has a 40 year old boyfriend and he does not even have the decency to treat me fairly financially. I just wish there was a button that you can turn to switch off your love...

What a terrible man. Please share as much as you like, perhaps here or on your own thread. Most straight spouses who post here regularly heal thanks to the support of kind members who understand your pain. Good luck my friend. 

If any straight spouses have questions for a gay ex-husband, please feel free to post them here. 

Welcome to the forum PrairieGirl, although I'm sorry things aren't working out with your husband. Before getting started, I'd urge you to review this excellent list for straight spouses:

https://straightspouse.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?pid=28678#p28678 

Now in response to your post/questions: 

1. My husband and I have been together for 13 years, married for 7 years. We met around age 20 through mutual friends. In hindsight, our relationship had a slow start in the physical/sexual areas, but we enjoyed each other's friendship and wasn't a deal breaker at the time. I remember around 2-3 years into our relationship, I felt like we weren't having sex frequently and definitely felt a lack of intimacy. I confronted him about it at the time and he told me it was because he watches porn.

These are common red flags: more friends than lovers; a lack of intimacy; and (gay) porn.  

2. I was confused and hurt by this, but we must have resolved things (or so I thought) as our relationship continued. About a year after that, I began having thoughts that be may be gay.

Again this is quite common with gay/straight marriages. As I shared in a recent post, none of the women in my life were terribly surprised when I came out. So I'd trust your intuition. 

3. I'm not sure entirely why I thought this at the time...

Well it sounds like "gay" was your first instinct. 

4. ...but it was just little comments that he would make. I did ask him at the time, and he denied it. Again, things must have smoothed over because we continued on the "traditional" path.....married....house...child. I had a lingering feeling that something was off but didn't really reconsider the homosexuality possibility until about a year ago.

Understood.  

5. Within the past year he has made numerous comments and innuendos about men. He also tends to bring the topic of gays up in conversation when it seems out of place. About a year ago, he brought up a suggestion about an open marriage (not something I have suggested) and also said he would have a threesome with me and another guy (also not something that I have suggested). However, when I bring up this conversation we had he has brought up a number of excuses... told me it didn't happen, I remember it wrong, he was under the influence of medication (he wasn't).

Again, this follows a common pattern. By suggesting a threesome (and it's always with another man with closeted husbands), your husband was likely testing your reaction. When you reacted negatively, he denied he'd ever suggested it. I'd look up the term gaslighting.   

6. So last August 2020 things seemed to be going pretty smoothly in our relationship, until I came across text messages between him and a former male coworker, who I am aware of but haven't met. The messages were flirty, intimate, sexual. In my mind, definitely crossing the line over friendship and also between him and another man. When I read these messages, I was shocked but also felt a weird sense of relief that I may have an answer to years of confusing behaviour.

I can imagine. So to recap, your husband: has little interest in sex with you (his wife); watches porn (likely gay porn); seems obsessed with men/gay culture; and now has had a relationship with a former male co-worker. Is this accurate? 

7. I waited a few days to talk to him about it and approached him by saying that I came across the messages that surprised me and asked if there was something more he wanted to explore. He became very defensive and said that he was offended that I could think that about him. He focused on the fact that I looked at his phone. And just flat out told me again, that he is not gay. He then deleted all the texts.

We he's certainly checking all the boxes. By focusing on the snooping, a cheating husband distracts from the real crime - his cheating - while also putting his wife on the defensive. While I'm going to sound like a broken record, I'd suggest you start reading up on, or watching videos about, narcissism. Why? Because your husband is using a lot of the tactics narcissists and abusers use to keep their partners in line.    

8. A few weeks after that, I had a bit of a freak out on him asking him why he doesn't show me any affection then and that I wanted to talk with him about separation. In short, without getting into the really private details, this lead into an emotionally heightened day that he disclosed to me a lifelong secret about a childhood abuse incident.

Wow...these guys are all reading from the same script. If you read my previous posts, it's quite common for closeted husbands to claim sexual abuse is the cause of their homosexuality. And most of them make such claims when their wives ask to separate/divorce. While many disagree with me, I reckon it's the closeted husband's "Hail Mary" attempt to change the narrative. Claiming childhood abuse does several things: first, it abruptly ends all discussion of separation/divorce because most straight spouses are caring empaths who overwhelmingly feel the need to heal their husbands. Second, it effectively ends all discussion of cheating/homosexuality because it's now just "too painful for him to discuss." And finally, it indirectly absolves him of any wrongdoing because, in his mind, all of his "acting" out is due to this trauma. As you can read in my previous posts, I typically call "bullsh*t" when closeted husbands allege abuse. My logic is simple: if he's capable of hiding his sexuality and has lied his whole life about porn/cheating, there is a very strong possibility he's lying now. 

9. Our relationship shifted to giving him the space to seek counselling and work on healing. However, he didn't really do that....and then he continued to make more homosexual comments...but whenever I approach the topic, he says that he is joking and that I am reading too into it, etc.

Again this is quite common. Most straight spouses throw themselves into healing their husbands and marriages whereas the husband appears to be disinterested or even hostile. I reckon what bothers most closeted husbands are straight wives challenging them on their bullsh*t. And by bullsh*t I mean, if you watch gay porn, have sex with men, and no longer have sex with women, you're as gay as a rainbow. 

10. So our relationship hasn't really progressed much since the summer, we are living pretty separate lives in the same household as we care for our 3 year old. I have repeatedly brought up the topic, but he continues to deny and defend. Then last week, he told me he would tell me something in writing but not face-to-face. I was fine with that, so we corresponded by email (sounds weird but worked for him). In that email, he tries to tell him that the "real reason" for our lack of intimacy and his disinterest in sex with me at times is because he watches porn. I really don't feel this is the reason and I told him that.

Question: what kind of porn is he watching? 

11. Sorry for the long winded history above. I guess my main questions are around denial and disclosure. I'm sure I will have more questions along the way. In your experience, is this type of denial common and how can it be approached?

If I'm reading your timeline correctly, you started thinking "my husband's gay" about a decade ago. You two then seem to have followed a pattern of "conflict, denial, reconciliation, repeat" for most of your relationship. If your husband is anything like me, he likely starting hiding his sexuality around age 5 or 6. So in response to your question, I recommend you do the following and these may seem a bit strange: 

- Remember that you and your child come first...the two of you are now your priorities
- Write a "help wanted" ad for the husband you need (ex. straight, honest, monogamous, sexually compatible etc.)
- Print this ad and read it daily...feel free to leave it where he can see it as well
- Determine how long you want to give your husband to get his sh*t together or get "fired" (a 3-month honeymoon is typical following conflict but normally 6-12 months will show you how your relationship will play out for the next 10-20 years).
- Start writing down everything your husband says so that he can no longer "gaslight you"
- Your husband will again insist on couples counselling. Don't agree. Couples counselling suggests there is something wrong with you, whereas he is the cause of your problems. 
- Go to individual counselling, create a thread here and post often, and share all of this with a trust friend or family member.  

12. My patience and compassion and giving him space to figure this out within our marriage is running thin.

Amen! 

13. If he would be open with me in any way, I feel we could be amicable and supportive.

Your husband is likely drowning emotionally and, unfortunately, you can't swim with him and a three-year-old on your shoulders. Most closeted husbands aren't bad people per se. We just can't be honest about our sexuality, particularly with our wives.   

14. Also, this may sound odd but I have this feeling that he would respond well to someone telling him that he may be gay. We went through couples counselling, which turned out to be a disaster.

I'm sorry you had to go through this. 

15. She asked him - "Are you gay?" - No.  "Are you bisexual?"-No. "Are you heterosexual?"-Yes. Then he left in the middle of the session overwhelmed and crying. Do you have any experience with men that disclose their sexuality when its presented in a different way?

I've never read about a straight man crying when challenged about his sexuality. Sadly, most straight spouses never hear "I'm gay" from their closeted husbands. Tragically, some straight wives spend decades trying to coax the truth out emotionally damaged husbands...to no avail. Based on what you've shared, I reckon the gay thing is secondary. Your husband appears to be emotionally damaged, appears to be borderline abusive, and hasn't made you happy in almost 10 years. Most importantly, he shows little sign of ever becoming the man you need. I'd suggest spending the coming weeks and months focusing on you, the baby, and your future. As others have posted here, the ball is now in his court. Let him save himself and your marriage...if he can.  

I hope that helps in some way my friend. Please post again if I haven't answered your questions. Be well! 

Last edited by Séan (April 2, 2021 5:05 pm)

Thank you JS. In response to your post: 

1. This does seem to be overwhelmingly true [straight wives who never hear "I'm gay" from closeted husbands]. *Many* only discover the truth through snooping...or "digital discovery" as a fellow straight spouse put it. No one likes doing it...no one wants to have to do it...but sometimes it's necessary. 

Based on my exchanges here, going years without sex forces many straight wives to play detective. Understandably, the straight spouse wants to know if her husband is cheating, gay, or both. 

2. If you decide to go that route again [namely playing detective] and have access to his phone/devices/app download history, you can do a global search for Kik, Grindr, Scruff, Jackd...Reddit is another big one. I'm sure there are many, many more...but those are the big ones. It may save you loads of time (and additional confusion). 

Sadly, most straight spouses arrive here in such a state of shock that they continue to ask, "Is my husband really gay?" even in the face of overwhelming evidence. And by overwhelming evidence, I mean: the couple hasn't had sex in years, he's on gay porn, and clearly cheating with men. 

So what's my point? I'm starting to think 'the gay thing' is actually a huge distraction. Don't get me wrong, a husband's sexuality is very important - meaning that straight wives deserve husbands who desire them sexually. What I'm trying to express is this: his (homo)sexuality aside, most of the straight spouses here find themselves in sexless, abusive, and highly toxic relationships. The straight spouse already has multiple reasons to separate/divorce even before unpacking issues such as a husband's infidelity and apparent homosexuality. 

Based on my time here, most straight wives exhaust themselves trying to: coax husbands out of their closets; convert obviously gay husbands back to being bi or straight (often via therapy); and many attempt mixed orientation marriages (MOMs). Sadly, most straight spouses do all of the heavy lifting and totally sacrifice themselves to save pretty sh*tty relationships. And she does all of this in the face of a husband who becomes progressively more hostile and abusive. The final insult is when he demands an open marriage "because, you know, I have certain needs." No straight spouse is capable of treading water forever, particularly with an angry gay husband standing her shoulders. Rather reluctantly, she starts to consider separation/divorce. And what does the closeted husband do? He suddenly reveals a "sexual abuse made me gay" story in a last-ditch attempt to keep her trapped in the marriage. This works for a time but after a few months or years, she realizes he's still the same damaged, philandering, porn-addicted man who refuses to have sex with her. Sadly most gay/straight relationships follow this well-worn path.    

I guess I'm urging straight spouses to determine whether they have marriages worth saving, before falling down the rabbit hole of defining a husband's sexuality. She needs to determine if he was, or can ever be, the man she needs. I hope that makes sense my friends! Please feel free to post whether you agree or disagree with my opinions. Be well.      

Last edited by Sean (April 5, 2021 3:05 pm)