Thank you for writing HereInMpls and Blackie. In response to HereInMpls' post: 

1. I have some questions. I'm a man married to a now coming out lesbian wife. I've known for almost two years. Her IG [Instagram] is often LGBT activism posts, her with our kids, her with friends. I'm in a holiday picture now and then. It's not that important, just a metaphor for how I feel in our relationship in general.

I'm so sorry you've found yourself in this position and posting on this forum. When reading my comments, please keep in mind that I'm a gay man offering a gay perspective. I have few lesbian friends and, other than some exchanges here, have little experience with straight husband/lesbian wife marriages. With that in mind, here goes...

2. I poured my entire adult life into our family and loving her, only to be mostly erased because she realized she likes different parts (she actually used those words once).

How heartless. You deserve better. 

3. She went dancing drunk at a gay bar with a woman. I signed up for dating apps. Why would she think what she did is perfectly fine and then rage at me, screaming and crying, because I wanted a straight woman to show interest in me? (I literally wanted a straight woman to express attraction to me, that was all, I wouldn't have even met irl).

It sounds like your wife is going through gay adolescence. Regardless of age, the newly-out man/woman goes through a period of teen-like exploration meaning; sexual exploration; becoming an LBGTQ warrior; lots of "I HATE you! Now give me money to go to the mall"-like conversations. We of the closet never really went through puberty because we lied about our sexualities. So when I came out at 42, I acted like a petulant, horny, gay 13-year-old until about age 44. Newly-out members of our communities are also referred to as "baby gays" or "gaybies." This may explain why your wife is acting like she's 13, but in an adult body. And like a teenager, get ready for her to fall completely in love with her first (but not last) girlfriend. 

4. It feels like she's trying to slowly exit our relationship while keeping me as a source of safety and stability.

I disagree. There is nothing "slow" about drunk dancing around a lesbian bar in my opinion. 

5. I feel used...

Damn straight! 

6. I do support and affirm her, authentically, not just lip service. Why does it seem like she can't do the same for me?

I'm happy to share my opinion but please keep in mind that I'm not a mental health professional. If your wife's experience in any way resembles mine, I reckon she isn't supporting you because she currently has all the empathy and emotional maturity of a 13-year-old lesbian K-Pop fan. While I'd suggest discussing all of this with a qualified counsellor/therapist, she's screaming at you because she is currently THE SUN in her rainbow-coloured universe...everyone else (meaning you) is just a tiny speck of a planet in her orbit. During this self-centred adolescent phase, I wouldn't expect to have any adult conversations with her. Put bluntly, you're like the annoying dad keeping her from being 100% authentic. Your relationship might have become more father/daughter than husband/wife. 

7. I'm not angry at her for being gay, or coming out, or even how this is blowing up my life.

The anger will come...eventually. 

8. I don't blame her for that stuff. What is destroying everything is the way she's handling things and treating me through it. Why doesn't she support me as much as I'm supporting her?

Likely because she and her new entourage (or girlfriend) see you more as the man keeping her from being her "authentic self." I'm going to make a huge generalization here but most of the lesbians I know aren't huge fans of men in general. Unfortunately, as a straight husband married to a lesbian wife, you-just-can't-win my friend because you don't have the right "parts." If your marriage follows the common arc, she'll start making demands to spend more time with and/or travel with her new best friend (read: girlfriend). And if things weren't already f*cked up, she might even start to make you feel like "you're keeping them apart." It is indeed a mind f*ck but there was little logic to my actions during my own gay adolescent phase.   

9. Why doesn't she take more responsibility for this?

Because she's not emotionally mature enough to do so and likely won't be until you split. Sorry if that's too blunt. 

10. Why am I expected to shoulder so much when the only thing I did to cause this is fall in love and marry her? I gave up so much for her and it's like she's spitting on that. 

I often ask straight spouses this question: if an adult son or daughter came to you and confided that their spouse was doing the exact same things as your lesbian wife, what advice would you give your children? Most people start their posts by writing, "She's my best friend and I love her..." only to then share a grocery list of abusive behaviours. In reply, I don't know your full relationship history but most gay/straight (or lesbian/straight) relationships were pretty God-awful, even before the gay thing became an issue. Based on my years of posting here and based on my own relationship, these marriages were largely one-sided meaning the straight spouse put up with years of emotional abuse and sexual neglect...even before the coming out and blatant cheating. So what's my point? I can only assume that your wife believes her behaviour and actions are completely acceptable. Put bluntly, this is her current definition of marriage. Straight spouses like you are often supportive following disclosure/coming out because, deep down, they often think that by being the best spouse possible, they can: turn back time by rekindling a sexual relationship; transform their gay spouses into bisexuals (rather than gay); or perhaps help their self-centred spouses be more like them. So what's my point? Your future ex-wife isn't going to change until she has to deal with the real-world consquences of her totally unacceaptable behaviour. In my opinion, you're enabling her.    

11. I don't expect that there's a roadmap for doing this better, but then again, is there? I know you can't know what her reasons are but your perspective might help. Thanks! 

In my opinion, you are fully justified in separating while she figures all of this out...on her own. I've just read your first post which started with: "My wife is my best friend." Perhaps it's time to revisit that statement brother. Best friends don't cheat (kissing in gay bars), scream at, and neglect their loved ones. I read that you have six children and am concerned how this turbulent and perhaps toxic home environment is affecting them. 

I have to agree with Blackie's approach on this one, namely: 

I have gone 100% no contact since December to protect myself and my sanity. She continues to rage at me, and I always remind her, "you chose this, this is what you wanted, you dont get to use me and drive me into the water to keep yourself afloat" She hates hearing that....other than that and communication for our kids, I do not speak to or even look at her. 

I second that. As I've often written here, you don't have to stay in the pool with a drowning spouse. And why? Because until your wife learns how to swim on her own, you'll both sink. I hope that helps in some way my friend. Be well.  

Last edited by Sean01 (February 6, 2023 11:31 pm)

Thank you for sharing Blackie. In reply: 

1. Sean - thanks so much. Tremendously insightful and helpful. I realize this may not be the answer for both my and HereIn's situation, but your prospective is honest and truly appreciated. 

Thank you. But please keep in mind that I've done many of the terrible things I now calmly write about in my posts. In my opinion, you straight spouses are the heroes...not me. 

2. For me, in addition to everything she has done, she is either lying outright (even more) or still confused, since her online dating profile is "looking for men". Not bi sexual, just looking for men. Guess she thought I wouldnt see it? I am a straight male looking for women....anyway, ever experience that or see that as common? 

It's very common for the questioning/closeted ex to rush into another heterosexual relationship, particularly when he/she was outed/dumped prematurely. ("Our Path" podcast host Kristin Kalbli discussed this during one of our interviews as her husband married a woman shortly after their divorce.) The most important thing for we closeted crazies is maintaining our carefully crafted facades as "straight acting." As I shared during my podcast interviews, I also reckon acting hetero is a kind of "f*ck you" to the straight spouse andperhaps community at large. While I'm not a mental health professional, I believe it's the closeted/questioning spouse's final gasp at heterosexuality while also trying to continue controlling the narrative and at the same time undermine the straight spouse's credibility. Put bluntly: more mind f*ckery. In more practical terms, I'd urge you to stay the course: limited contact and for God's sake don't reach out to any future boyfriends. If you've determined that your future ex-wife is toxic and/or radioactive, maintain a healthy distance while focusing on your own healing.  

3. Thank you again, super helpful. Hope to finalize divorce and pick up the pieces of my life in weeks (its been almost a year of dealing with this) Best and highest wishes for you, Sean.

Good luck my friend. Be well. 

Last edited by Sean01 (February 6, 2023 11:34 pm)

Thank you for writing HereInMpls, in reply: 

1. It does help. Not that it matters, but to clarify- I'm plenty angry. I'm angry about how I'm being treated. I'm not angry about her being herself. I would have been her biggest supporter and was trying to be when I thought she must be bi. I'd still like to get there.

Understood. My question is: what is she currently doing to support you? Based on what you've shared, it sounds like this relationship is largely one-sided.  

2. For now, I know I need some space. She's been out of town at Disney with my two youngest kids for 4 days and my therapist commented today on how different I am. Peaceful, at ease. I can't heal while the person who has caused so much pain is right here, treating me like I don't exist. I can't stay in that anger, it's incredibly damaging.

Agreed. A word of caution my friend: if your wife is traveling with her new (female) best friend, then this is likely her girlfriend. While I don't have a lot of experience with lesbian/straight marriages, the new girlfriend is often introduced to the family as a new "best friend." Just a word of caution. 

3. I wonder if late-blooming lesbians like men more? I know a few who were married, had kids, have come out and after getting through their adolescence (and generally treating their husbands like shit initially, according to them) they still love their husbands and end up friends.

After years of exchanging with straight wives, most have spent decades hoping beyond hope for a better future. It often sounds something like this: once he works through his childhood trauma with a therapist; stops cheating; stops watching gay porn; stops lying to me; we'll have a shot a real relationship. So what's my point? I'd urge you to accept and deal with who she is at the moment...not who you're praying for her to be. For example, if she is currently dishonest, then it's safe to assume she's mostly lying to you. If she is toxically self-centred at the moment, then you're only torturing yourself if you expect her to be kind/caring. This may sting a bit but you can reasonably assume that she's sleeping with women at the moment because this is what newly out people do...explore their sexualities. She'll also likely continue to lie, distract and gaslight you when challenged about her sexuality. It's not that she's a bad person for doing so. It's more that honesty - when it comes to her sexuality - just isn't a language she understands at the moment. I hope that doesn't hurt too much my friend but this is the common progression of gay/straight relationships. 

4. Idk, I just have to heal now. Thanks for your insights.

Thank YOU for sharing my friend. I'd urge you to keep posting because for every straight spouse sharing here, I believe there are hundreds following your journeys. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (February 8, 2023 1:30 pm)

Thank you for sharing Rose and such a pleasure to see your last message. For context, please click this link to see Rose's first forum post. In reply to your latest message: 

1. I am 5 or more like 15 years into hoping therapy etc brings some sense of self awareness, healing in some direction., so that we can get to a peaceful next chapter.

I'm so sorry you and your family have been suffering...and for so long. As I shared above, most straight wives spend decades hoping beyond hope for a better future. It often sounds something like this: once he works through his childhood trauma with a therapist; stops cheating; stops watching gay porn; stops lying to me; we'll have a shot a real relationship. Unfortunately, that "new beginning" never materializes. And our children often suffer the terrible effects of living in a toxic household...full of secrets.  

2. And, instead, this is what I get [from her closeted/questioning husband]: “It’s unfortunate that you think you need to end the marriage to make the point that what I did is not ok.  You have made that point for the last 5 years and I agree.  So sad that you believe you need to kill the entire relationship to make that point.  I remain very concerned that you are focused on the event of separating and not the permanent implications.  But it’s your choice.”

What an *sshole. This is a classic blame shift and might also demonstrate some form of gay-in-denial personality disorder; something I'd suggest you review with a qualified therapist. "It's your choice" is particularly galling given your future ex-husband's long history of cheating with men. My question to him would be: what, if anything, did you do wrong?  

3. Ok wait. Erotic pics - really- sent to my by the boyfriend over my social media accounts. Multiple cell phones - recently! And a significant drinking problem. And somehow it’s my fault? Ugh.

In my unprofessional opinion, your future ex-husband appears to have lost touch with reality. Few sane husbands would define marriage as: lies; infidelity; and (now) addiction. So no, this isn't your fault because your husband chose to, and continues to, cheat on you.  

4. Save yourself. Keep your honor, no need to make it worse for your floundering partner, but save yourself. Now. (I know it’s hard / I still love mine.  Fingers crossed he finds himself. But I’m doing no good by not getting out, now.)

Agreed. 

5. This started for me when I was 40, if not before that - “is it the Zoloft or is it me?” - and only escalated. Now I’m 56 and rebuilding a life on my own, still in the face of massive resistance as in the text above. Go. Now. I have a lot of nice friends who would love to meet you, in an honest way!

Well said my friend. I hope you and your children are well. Please feel free to post an update as I believe you planned to move out last September. 

Last edited by Sean01 (February 9, 2023 4:42 am)

Thank you for writing Needtoknow22. I'll do my best to reply to your questions/post but to do so will edit it down. Here goes: 

1. I am posting here for a few things. I'm wondering if some of the things that feel like red flags to me, are red flags. I'm also wondering how if there is any way to get him to tell me. I've made my stance on cheating clear so if he has already cheated...I don't know how to convince him to tell me.

While we can debate your husband's sexuality, "cheater" is a very black and white term. I have always maintained that cheating is like an iceberg, meaning 9/10ths remains under water. So if you caught your partner in one or two affairs, you should multiply that by x10. So if he admitted to one affair, that means he's likely had 10+ lovers. 

2. Ten years ago I had a gay best friend when I met my SO [significant other]. Them two quickly became great friends. But things started getting weird where my SO spent more time with him than me. But then it got weirder bc the gay friend started making odd remarks and then tried making me jealous. It was an important event in our lives and I couldn't be out late bc of a major function for me. But gay BFF [best friend forever] was saying that he is so excited that my SO was coming to drink with him that night (SO had never told me about that) and claimed he had no idea what BFF was talking about that he planned to finish out that evening with his other friend group and he didn't feel comfortable drinking alone with gay BFF. Since then I've learned my SO has no issues lying and hiding things so now I'm wondering if gay BFF was telling the truth. Since I believed SO, we decided to end the friendship with him.

These are pretty common pink flags; namely a straight spouse who has a gay best friend and a closeted husband/partner who starts surrounding himself with or showing a fascination with gay men and gay culture. (I call them "pink flags" rather than "red flags.") It's very common for the closeted man to have two faces: acting like a real queen/diva around gay men and then switching back to the macho homophobic man's man the next day. 

3. About a year past that incident (recently married) I felt something was off and went snooping. Found an odd message in his spam folder. Pulled phone records. The number had a few weeks of texts. I confronted too soon. He thought I knew more than that and cried. Said he messed up and swore he would go to church. After that he realized I knew nothing and suddenly forgot the rest (right).. I did find out that number was a woman. We went to counseling. We agreed to stay together.

Again, cheating is like an iceberg; 9/10ths remains under water. Gay or not this man clearly isn't very good at monogamy. 

4. About a year later. My SO was in the military. One night at a party one of the guys asked me about my SO's penis size. If he grows.. another guy made an odd remarks about my husband being gay. I asked SO he said guys just joke like that.

More pink flags: namely an ultra-macho career (military) and getting teased for being gay by other men. I'd ask his mother or older sister if he was ever teased as a child/teenager for being gay. 

5. A guy in the military didn't have a car and occasionally my SO gave him a ride. I suspected this guy of being gay or bi. Well one after noon we all 3 went grocery shopping. Well as we dropped the guy off and as my SO was bent over the guy grabbed my SO hips and thrust/humped. I said wtf. And SO claimed he is just weird like that. A bubble buster. Anyways it has since came out that he is gay. He came out if the closet.

More pink flags in my opinion. The closeted man will often befriend a lot of gay men before coming out. 

6. Now I'm going to tell this incident as it happened but I need to add a note at the bottom. From info I found out in the last few months. ** My SO had a guy friend he was buds with in the military. I liked the guy. He was married but his wife was in a LTR [long-term relationship]. Anyways about 5 years ago they got out of the military and this friend lived in a different state. Him and his wife were passing through our state and wanted to stop by. Well SO wanted to take (fake name) Jake out back behind the shed to show him our livestock. Well my young (3 daughter) wanted to go so I yelled out the door that's was sending kiddo out. Well kiddo goes running to the shed and Jake comes around the corner and picks kiddo up and takes kiddo slowly back to me. Well about 5 minutes later SO comes out from behind the shed. I asked what took so long and he said feeding the animals. Well that struck me as weird bc why didn't they let kiddo help. Well that night my SO was super pushy for sex. Like super unusual.i even told him then it was really weird how he was acting.

Did he and Jake have sex in the shed? Unknown. It's quite common for the closeted/questioning husband to panic after having sex with another man. Pushing to have sex with a wife just after hooking up with a man to prove his "heterosexuality" is a common emotional response, particularly if they got caught by your three-year-old. 

7. About 3-4 years ago we were going to a community craft fair. Well from what I know my SO didn't do those before me. Well when we pulled in he was like "let's look for the gutter booth" and I'm like what? He is like "yeah let's stop at the gutter repair booth". I'm like WTF there are no gutter people here? It's a CRAFT fair. He insisted that they are always at craft fairs. Well we start walking around and sure as shit there is a gutter repair booth. So bee lines for it ahead of me and starts talking to the guy. Well when I walk up the guy is very flamboyantly gay. They talk for a few minutes and then he gives my SO his number for repairs and we leave. I have never seen gutter repair people at any craft fair since.

For a self-identified straight man, he surrounds himself with a lot of gay men.  

8. 2 years ago he pulled out his phone and was in his contacts and there was a new guys name I didn't recognize and he behaved super weird. Now I know y'all might be like "could've been a woman". Since the first affair 10 years ago we have an open phone policy and I've some learned he is probably using a burner phone. Well around this time me and my SO have to go out of town at different points. And looking back it's clear he cheated but idk who. At two different points in the last 3 years I found women's sunglasses and a black wash cloth in our house. Flimsy excuses. At the time I guess I had no way to prove him lying. But obviously looking back...

Regardless of your husband's sexuality, he is clearly failing at monogamy. If you determine that monogamy is an integral part of marriage and you do not want an open marriage, then it's time to accept you simply define marriage differently and move on. With regards to "open phone" and "probationary-officer-like relationships", this rarely works because the cheating/closeted husband just buys a burner phone or he takes even greater precautions to conceal his hidden life from his warden/wife. A classic example is the straight spouse putting a tracker on her husband's phone, only to have him buy a burner phone, or switch his tracked phone off, or simply leave that phone in his car/hotel room when traveling on business.  

9. Well in March of this year we were at a friend's party. And my SO made two different inappropriate jokes. 1 (to a guy we didn't know) was talking about killing his chicken for food. And my SO was like are you going to choke the chicken? Then his high school best dude friend was super drunk (now let me pause for context and say that there was 2 gay couples there) and got to shouting about he tried to "to be with a dude once" and my SO was like "oh you have?" And lifts one leg up on the counter and like leans in like a lunge and wiggles his eyebrows. I just laugh it off but then the party moves outside. And the two gay couples start talking about all the married guys with kids we went to high school with being on Grindr. Well I go to look over at my SO thinking we would share that "we are about to get gossip" look but instead I got a deer in headlights look. Well then the friend looks dead at my SO and says " I guess we all have things we regret". And my SO looked so weird and behaved really tense after that. Well in the car ride I "confronted". And he denied. Was angry.

Ok so now he's likely on Grindr, a gay hook up app.

10. Well that was a Sunday. Monday I go to my BFF [best friend forever] and talk to her. Well that Tuesday he was super down in the dumps. Sent me song lyrics about about splitting up. Apologized for "not being the husband I need" and told me if I wanted to go my own way I could totally do it and no reason to be scared about not making it on my own. Note: so as I said major open phone policy. Well I recently have been going through his old phone. I had complete access then and now. Well I got to looking at messages between him and [shed friend] Jake and while out on military training (gone 3 months) And my SO sent him a text asking to send him the link they were talking about so he could send it to me. Well the link was "5 reasons a married man should try sex with a man in their life". SO never sent that to me. Then over the next few weeks Jake sent SO gay erotica with hilarious titles. Which SO did share with me. Well then my SO sent me a message right before he got home that he wanted to start trying prostate stuff. Which I was totally open to. Well their messages keep going and Jake calls my SO gay boy several times after that. Then in one text thread Jake said "look you are the one that was trying to buy dick picks today". And SO mentioned that I approved that. I don't know what they were talking about and don't remember. Well here and there more gay related stuff (I remember joking a one point saying they were gay). And my SO said to him "wife totally thinks we are gay together you'll have to heckle her about it".

This all sounds very "Brokeback Mountain", meaning two married husbands having sex. It's also very common for closeted/questioning husbands to ask straight wives to peg/penetrate them...what you refer to as "prostate stuff." 

11. Anyways. I've spoken to a PI [private investigator] and there is a lot of circumstantial evidence of affairs but he knows I'm suspicious so we are sitting back. But with that being said, are the above things normal?? Are these the things people mean when they say "the signs were there". He has been struggling with ED with me for several months now. But he didn't have any trouble when I let him play in my back door or when I used my fingers on him during a BJ. I don't even know how to get him to talk. I'm not sure I can.

I'd suggest listening to two podcast interviews I did with "Our Path"

S4 Ep 3: A “Narcissist in Recovery” Gets Real - OurPath
S5 Ep 5: A Former Closeted Narcissist in Recovery Answers Your Questions - OurPath

as we discuss a number of pink flags. 

Let's review the facts. Your husband: 

- Has a long history of cheating and has been caught cheating with women. 
- For years has demonstrated he's curious about gay men, gay culture, and gay sex. 
- Often chooses to befriend and/or hang around gay men. 
- Likely had a sexual "Brokeback Mountain"-like relationship with Jake.
- Is likely using Grindr, a gay hook up app. 
- Asked you to peg him (anal penetration) and is now having performance issues with you in the bedroom.  
 
As I shared in the above podcasts, when closeted husbands cheat, there are a number of common pink flags such as: body shaving (particularly chest, pubes, and *ss); a sudden obession with physical fitness to attract other gay men; and a sudden change in wardrobe, underwear, and appearance. Most closeted cheaters also travel a lot for work or perhaps even live in another city because this makes it easier to cheat. With regards to getting a cheating/closeted/questioning husband to open up, that's not going to happen unfortunately. Most of these men have been hiding their true sexualities for decades. In my experience, most of these men only come out to themselves and their families once separated/divorced from straight wives. And some very deeply closeted men often marry then divorce another woman before finally coming out.

I hope that helps my friend. Please feel free to post again if I haven't properly answered your questions. Be well!