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Sean, I feel like I am living in a nightmare. My closeted-husband is still insisting I am all he wants. He had at least one affair with a man who sent me dirty pictures of the two of them having sex through my social media accounts as well as sexy text messages, etc. My husband minimizes all this, says it was a one-time identity crisis. There is no way this is true: there were other weird pocket dials, taxi receipts, strange trips. I am convinced we need to divorce, for our health and the health of our children, now 16 and 19, who have overheard a lot and who I am convinced also labor under burdens of shame and fear.
But, Chris is going to be mean to me as I try to move to divorce, and I am afraid of that. He can be lacerating, so sharp when he is angry. And he is going to try to make me look like the bad guy although he is the one who committed infidelity and had to take a restraining order out against the affair partner, who turned into a stalker. I have tried to be understanding, have not "outed" him to his family or our mutual friends, have found him a counsellor who specializes in LGBTQ/coming out and is himself gay. I know - you are saying "codependent" but I have tried to hold a mirror up to all of this and bring us to a place of honesty but with no luck. Chris had another burner cell in his backpack last month. But "all he wants is me". I saw your comment about the wife being like the bartender, also the one about a drowning man pushing someone who swims out under. It is so hard to know what to do. And, my 19 year old son is really in a dark place with pot, video games and conspiracy theories. Even if some of this is due to Chris's closet, throwing everything into chaos might make it worse in the short term? I am very stuck, and grateful for any advice, thank you for being here.
Last edited by RoseColoredGlasses (March 8, 2022 2:42 pm)
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Thank you Sean. Reading through your responses gives me a sense of relief. Sorry to keep bugging, but just want to add that the penetrative sex is less than once a week, oral often several. In the beginning I thought it was so odd, when we were young and first dating, that he would almost always prefer oral in situations where we had the the privacy to have piv. I've been seeing a therapist for many years. My depression & anxiety had never been worse in the first few months of dating when I was trying to figure out what the heck was going on. Sigh!
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Thank you for posting. In reply:
Rose wrote:
1. Sean, I feel like I am living in a nightmare. My closeted-husband is still insisting I am all he wants. He had at least one affair with a man who sent me dirty pictures of the two of them having sex through my social media accounts as well as sexy text messages, etc.
Wow. I'm so sorry you went through all of this.
2. My husband minimizes all this, says it was a one-time identity crisis. There is no way this is true: there were other weird pocket dials, taxi receipts, strange trips.
Cheating is a bit like an iceberg...9/10ths is often under water.
3. I am convinced we need to divorce, for our health and the health of our children, now 16 and 19, who have overheard a lot and who I am convinced also labor under burdens of shame and fear.
I'm sorry to read this. Our children are often the silent victims of toxic marriages.
4. But, Chris [husband] is going to be mean to me as I try to move to divorce, and I am afraid of that. He can be lacerating, so sharp when he is angry.
Anger is a form of control in my opinion. What you've shared suggests an abusive relationship, something you should perhaps explore with a professional.
5. And he is going to try to make me look like the bad guy although he is the one who committed infidelity and had to take a restraining order out against the affair partner, who turned into a stalker.
There is a very good chance that he's already maneuvering against you. Closeted husbands often try to paint their wives as crazy or overly emotional because it provides us with cover, particularly when she's making noises about separation/divorce.
6. I have tried to be understanding, have not "outed" him to his family or our mutual friends, have found him a counsellor who specializes in LGBTQ/coming out and is himself gay. I know - you are saying "codependent"...
Question: what's he doing to support you?
7. ...but I have tried to hold a mirror up to all of this and bring us to a place of honesty but with no luck.
I'm so very sorry. As I've posted here and shared in countless interviews, honesty just isn't a language the closeted husband understands. When I ask straight spouses to grade their husbands on an honesty scale - with 0/10 being pathalogically dishonest and 10/10 being Jesus-like honesty - most wives give closted/questioning husbands something like a 2/10. Going forward, straight spouses can then tell themselves that 20% of what he's saying is true or conversely that 80% of what he's saying is false, particularly when he's blathering on about his sexuality. We're not bad people, it's just that we've been hiding our sexualities since around ages 5 or 6. Another example: if he got caught sleeping with just 1-2 men, you can muliply that x8 based on his honesty score. I discuss this and similar issues in my recent interview S4 Ep 3: A “Narcissist in Recovery” Gets Real - OurPath.
8. Chris had another burner cell in his backpack last month.
Again, cheating is like an iceberg: 9/10ths is often under water.
9. But "all he wants is me". I saw your comment about the wife being like the bartender, also the one about a drowning man pushing someone who swims out under. It is so hard to know what to do.
You've made a good start by posting here. I'd also urge you to contact "Our Path" and perhaps seek professional help. I also think you're justified in sharing all of this with a trusted friend or family member.
10. And, my 19 year old son is really in a dark place with pot, video games and conspiracy theories. Even if some of this is due to Chris's closet, throwing everything into chaos might make it worse in the short term?
Question: would you just "give it a little more time" if your house were on fire? Of course not. You'd get yourself and the kids the f*ck out. My kids starting healing once they were out of our burning wreck of a fake marriage. I've been posting here for years and I can tell you with some confidence that tech-savvy kids know all of dad's little secrets. Often the reason they're acting out is because they can't deal with the pressure of living in dad's closet.
11. I am very stuck, and grateful for any advice, thank you for being here.
We're only as sick as our secrets friend. Again I'd suggest:
- reading this forum's "first aid" kit
- contacting "Our Path" to get support
- sharing your story with trusted friends/family
- get yourself professional help, not couples' counselling
- be prepared for his final push to assert control over you and your marriage: a honeymoon phase; some bullsh*t story about sexual abuse; and finally abusive behaviour.
Good luck my friend and please feel free to post again.
Annie wrote:
1. Thank you Sean. Reading through your responses gives me a sense of relief.
Glad to have helped but please keep in mind that not too long ago, I was also a monstrous closeted husband.
2. Sorry to keep bugging, but just want to add that the penetrative sex is less than once a week, oral often several.
Thank you for answering my question. You're still having more PIV sex than most straight wives who are 40+ years old. Many first-time contributors come to this forum not having had sex with their husbands for years.
3. In the beginning I thought it was so odd, when we were young and first dating, that he would almost always prefer oral in situations where we had the the privacy to have piv [penis-in-vagina sex].
That's a red flag in my opinion.
4. I've been seeing a therapist for many years. My depression & anxiety had never been worse in the first few months of dating when I was trying to figure out what the heck was going on. Sigh!
I personally don't define love as paralysing depression/anxiety. I applaud you for having a therapist but would encourage you to contact "Our Path" and also speak with fellow straight spouses. I know from experience that a one-hour conversation with a fellow member can be life-changing.
Thank you both for sharing. Be well!
Last edited by Sean (March 9, 2022 2:47 am)
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Sean, thank you so much for responding - I was looking for it eagerly; I do think you make so much sense. It is so hard with my son. Both of my children were adopted at birth. When all of this started to explode, it was immediately clear to me that they needed their Dad, and that demonizing him was definitely not the way to go. He is a funny, kind, generous, smart person who made a mistake a long time ago, in a different - but not different enough - era, and married his college girlfriend - me. Like you said “ We're not bad people, it's just that we've been hiding our sexualities since around ages 5 or 6. “
That said, opening the door is the only path to health that I see, and he isn’t budging - in fact, I’m worried he thinks the right thing to do is double down on his commitment to the life he built with me. Ugh. It isn’t going to hold!
Anyway, I think for my son it is this: yes, there is a fire/smoke issue. But we (ok I) are going to have to stabilize the structure before we can get close enough to address it fully. This is our house, flaws and all. So, I’m going to engineer a strategic exit over the next several months while I get my son the psychiatric and therapeutic care he needs. Then I can go. I’m tempted to blow the whole thing up now but I guess I believe it’s more nuanced, multifaceted than that. BUT it would be so much easier if my husband could cope with the truth, right? But he’s still lying to himself I guess. Anyway, thank you so much for being here. This limbo life is a weird experience and your support here is a help to so many; look at the numbers! Gratefully, Rose
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Thank you for posting Rose. In reply:
1. Sean, thank you so much for responding - I was looking for it eagerly; I do think you make so much sense.
Thank you but please keep in mind that I myself was an angry, manipulative, closeted husband not too long ago.
2. It is so hard with my son. Both of my children were adopted at birth. When all of this started to explode, it was immediately clear to me that they needed their Dad, and that demonizing him was definitely not the way to go.
I reckon we owe our children the truth. If you've determined that their dad is a closeted, cheating, and abusive husband, you can honestly share all of this with them. In my limited experience, most children know dad's gay long before we sit them down and share "dad's big secret." In fact, many children experience relief when dad comes out because they no longer feel responsible for keeping his secrets and for keeping mom/dad together.
3. He is a funny, kind, generous, smart person who made a mistake a long time ago, in a different - but not different enough - era, and married his college girlfriend - me. Like you said "We're not bad people, it's just that we've been hiding our sexualities since around ages 5 or 6."
There appears to be a disconnect between the kind man you describe above and this person:
"But, [husband] Chris is going to be mean to me as I try to move to divorce, and I am afraid of that. He can be lacerating, so sharp when he is angry."
4. That said, opening the door is the only path to health that I see, and he isn’t budging - in fact, I’m worried he thinks the right thing to do is double down on his commitment to the life he built with me. Ugh. It isn’t going to hold!
Few spouses just walk away from long-term marriages, particularly when there are children. HOWEVER, be prepared because closeted husbands don't go quietly, particularly when they've built an entire identity around acting straight. When a straight spouse starts hinting at divorce, her husband often:
- Fakes an illness or suicide so she becomes his caretaker
- Claims he was sexually abused/assaulted and that only she can help him heal such wounds
- Love bombs her and initiates a "honeymoon" phase during which he acts like perfect, horny, hetero husband
5. Anyway, I think for my son it is this: yes, there is a fire/smoke issue. But we (ok I) are going to have to stabilize the structure before we can get close enough to address it fully....
Fair. But how is Chris/husband/father helping other than buying burner phones and hooking up with men on the down-low? Hard for any spouse to "stabilize the structure" when the husband is throwing Molotov cocktails and swinging away with his pink sledgehammer.
6. This is our house, flaws and all. So, I’m going to engineer a strategic exit over the next several months while I get my son the psychiatric and therapeutic care he needs. Then I can go.
Take all the time you need my friend. Separation and divorce are serious matters.
7. I’m tempted to blow the whole thing up now but I guess I believe it’s more nuanced, multifaceted than that. BUT it would be so much easier if my husband could cope with the truth, right?
Truth isn't a language closeted/questioning husbands understand unfortunately. Asking these broken men to be honest and authentic would be like asking your husband to wake up tomorrow speaking fluent Mandarin. It's going to take him years to fully accept reality.
8. But he’s still lying to himself I guess. Anyway, thank you so much for being here. This limbo life is a weird experience and your support here is a help to so many; look at the numbers! Gratefully, Rose.
Thank you Rose and I'd encourage you to keep coming back. Here are some links to interviews I've done with fellow straight spouses:
INTERVIEW W/CHARLOTTE (FEB16-22). Charlotte (aka "LMM") is a relatively new member to the forum. She bravely shares about being raised by mentally ill parents, being an Evangelical Christian, and why God told her to marry a closeted gay man. Charlotte has recently made the decision to separate/divorce.
INTERVIEW W/LILY (JAN30-22). Lily is a long-time forum member and beloved contributor. She shares about meeting her future husband in a cult, moving to Australia for "love", and how he emotionally abused her for decades. Lily is now divorced, free, and living her best life down under.
INTERVIEW W/KAY (JAN22-22). Kay (aka "Walkbymyself") shares about spending three decades with her closeted ex-husband, his AIDS scare, and how she found the courage to divorce.
Good luck!
Last edited by Sean (March 9, 2022 11:07 am)
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Sean wrote:
I reckon we owe our children the truth. If you've determined that their dad is a closeted, cheating, and abusive husband, you can honestly share all of this with them. In my limited experience, most children know dad's gay long before we sit them down and share "dad's big secret." In fact, many children experience relief when dad comes out because they no longer feel responsible for keeping his secrets and for keeping mom/dad together.
I wanted to emphasize the importance of this observation. A child who suspects they know something about one parent that the other parent isn't supposed to know, is being put in an inherently conflicting situation. Speak up, and you're risking your relationship with Dad. Keep quiet, lie to your Mom, and if she stumbles across the truth you've ruined your relationship with her. It puts the child in a no-win situation.
And, as a mother, you have no way of knowing whether your daughter is keeping secrets from you. You know it's not healthy. You don't know whether she's thinking you're an idiot in denial about her father.
The kids don't ask to keep secrets -- they get manipulated. It's unhealthy to the point of being sick.
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I've been thinking a lot about all of this: my kids overheard a lot, so they know my husband was questioning his sexuality, and they also know he had an affair. They also do adore their father. Sean wrote that there is a disconnect between the kind man I described and some of his actions, including his anger. I'd say, yes, there is a disconnect. That is kind of the whole thing: there is a disconnect. We straight spouses have to sit with that, work around the gaps and find ways of coping when the person who we are supposed to be able to count on most is a person who is deeply conflicted, and not acting honestly. There is a disconnect between his sexuality and his life, probably his values and his life. And thus my sexuality and my life, and my values and my life. And my family and my life, and my hopes and dreams and what is possible. And his hopes and dreams and what is possible. And the children's, too. Very many disconnects, actually! I guess we have to accept it and work around it for now because it is also true that he is a kind, talented man who loves them very much. And if he cannot cope with who he is, the rest of us will have to adjust. Yes, it is unhealthy and difficult for all of us, and he is the only one of us can really fix it. I'm going to leave, but I am not going to make a huge stink about it, and I am going to pace the work of restructuring this problem marriage. REALLY GRATEFUL this forum is here. Thank you both for thinking about it, Rose
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Thank you for sharing Rose. In reply:
1. I've been thinking a lot about all of this: my kids overheard a lot, so they know my husband was questioning his sexuality, and they also know he had an affair. They also do adore their father.
I'm going to rewrite something:
"My sons (16 & 19) know dad has been lying about his sexuality and has been cheating on mom with men for years."
While I'd urge you to discuss all of this with a mental health professional, I still think you're being overprotective towards your closeted husband. (Question: do you think he's gay?) Knowing dad is gay/questioning and cheated on mom (with another man) is a very heavy burden for 16 and 19-year-old boys. I think we can also assume the boys know about dad's gay porn history, emails/texts, and perhaps even his sex toys...assuming these things all exist of course. Thinking of you Rose, you may now feel like you're treading water with three family members standing on your shoulders. Again I'd urge you to seek professional help for yourself and perhaps for your sons. Yes your boys adore their dad, but they DON'T have to accept the lying, cheating, and anger. We can still love others with boundaries.
2. Sean wrote that there is a disconnect between the kind man I described and some of his actions, including his anger. I'd say, yes, there is a disconnect. That is kind of the whole thing: there is a disconnect. We straight spouses have to sit with that, work around the gaps and find ways of coping when the person who we are supposed to be able to count on most is a person who is deeply conflicted, and not acting honestly. There is a disconnect between his sexuality and his life, probably his values and his life. And thus my sexuality and my life, and my values and my life. And my family and my life, and my hopes and dreams and what is possible. And his hopes and dreams and what is possible. And the children's, too. Very many disconnects, actually!
Well said.
3. I guess we have to accept it and work around it for now because it is also true that he is a kind, talented man who loves them very much. And if he cannot cope with who he is, the rest of us will have to adjust.
I disagree. The burden is also on him to make things right...and helping means more than just arranging hook ups on another burner phone. If I've read your former posts correctly, you want to divorce and your husband does not. You should prepare yourself and your sons for dad to make mom look like "bad mom" because you're asking to divorce while dad wants to stay married "for the kids."
4. Yes, it is unhealthy and difficult for all of us, and he is the only one of us can really fix it.
I agree that only he can fix himself.
5. I'm going to leave, but I am not going to make a huge stink about it, and I am going to pace the work of restructuring this problem marriage. REALLY GRATEFUL this forum is here. Thank you both for thinking about it, Rose.
Take all the time you need my friend and please keep coming back. Be well!
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Sean,
First things first: thank you so very much for so much time out of your life answering our questions here. I’m relatively new to this site, but I’ve been slowly reading through much of this thread and you have consistently given honest and balanced insight into these difficult situations.
I’ve been absolutely dreading asking this, but I’ve been puzzling over some things my husband has said/done and I’m at a point now where I’m not entirely sure I believe he’s straight. More specifically, I’ve developed a deep fear that he might be happier with another crossdresser/mtf trans (someone who looks like a woman but still has a penis). I understand my situation is a little outside your realm of experience (crossdressers, trans) however, I think you still might be able to give some insight into his patterns of attraction (or lack thereof).
Things that over the years have raised flags:
1. He has always been honest that nudity does not arouse him. He likes lingerie, there’s nothing “sexy” about genitalia. I will note that I’ve never actually caught him checking out men, I HAVE seen his face light up like Christmas morning over seeing attractive women... as I get older, I wonder how much of that admiration is actually lust vs envy. (Does he want to sleep with her, or BE her? He’s a crossdresser/sissy and closeted trans, so it’s not that much of a stretch. But he swears up and down to like women and he does seem attracted to other women so who knows.)
2. We had a *decent* sex life for maybe a year when we first started dating. It quickly deflated. Since we’ve been married, sex has ranged from once a week (at best) to a couple times a year, and at one point we had about a year long dry spell. He chalks this up to my sex drive being higher than his, him being tired/sore/stressed from work, and feeling repressed because vanilla sex is ‘boring’ (gee thanks) and he needs his fetishes (crossdressing, abdl, pegging, being dominated) to get him in that mindset.
3. He’s admitted that his sex drive has virtually nothing to do with me. (Apparently that’s supposed to make me feel better?!) And I believe this, because he’s rarely ever seems aroused by ME, he usually seems either just randomly horny or he’s aroused by feminizing himself.
4. The stars have to align perfectly for him to get off during normal intercourse. Right now that makes sense, I just had a baby and it takes awhile for everything to fully bounce back, but 5 years ago? Pre-children? When we were both in our 20’s?! The only way he can get off is laying on his back, with his eyes closed, and not really participating much but receiving a lot of stimulation.
5. He has absolutely no interest in preforming anal and says it’s unsanitary, but he really really likes pegging (being on the receiving end of anal play).
6. The first time he went down on me was 2 years into our relationship... on our honeymoon. He had no interest in trying it before that because it grossed him out. He has since decided that he enjoys it, and even mentioned a few weeks ago that he prefers doing that to actual sex.
7. Sometimes he seems to enjoy receiving blowjobs, sometimes it’s apparent that he’s annoyed by me and is waiting for it to end. (What kind of straight man gets annoyed by his wife wanting to give him blowjobs?!)
8. I used to jump through hoops trying to get his attention. He said he liked slutty clothes, so I wore them. He liked the goth-dominatrix look, I tried it. He liked the schoolgirl-Lolita look, I tried it. Etc. My closet used to look like the costume closet of a porn studio. I got wayyy to much attention from other men, but virtually none from him. He always wanted whatever I wasn’t.
9. He’s made several insensitive remarks about my looks over the years, basically insinuating that I’m not very attractive. He later excused these remarks by first saying that he thought talking about me that way was okay because he’s heard me say similar things about myself (I’ve got some self esteem issues due to past traumas) and later claiming that he wasn’t even talking about me. He was. Then he tells me he thinks I’m beautiful and all that jazz.
10. He’s always been amused by the fact that he ‘passes’ for a girl well enough that men will occasionally check him out before noticing he’s a man. He claims it’s because he thinks the look on their face when they realize he’s a man is hilarious.
11. When we were arguing about his crossdressing/feminizing, I tried to put things in perspective by asking how he’d feel I started presenting masculine. What if I cut all my hair off, stopped shaving, never wore makeup or plucked my eyebrows or did any type of feminine grooming, and started wearing men’s clothes? He said it wouldn’t bother him as long as my personality was the same. His love/attraction to me doesn’t really have anything to do with how I look. As I told him, if that’s true, then he’s an anomaly because I don’t think that’s normal at all.
12. He’s on sub forums for crossdressers, trans people, feminine men, abdl, etc... He doesn’t post, but he comments. The comments all seem harmless and platonic, like he’s just encouraging friends with similar interest. Kind of the same way women pay each other compliments when we like each others hair/makeup/clothes. But it still makes me wonder.
He says he’s never cheated, and I 100% believe him. But what are the odds that all these little things are coincidental and due to the multitude of excuses I’ve been fed? He swears up and down that he’s straight (likes women). My intuition says that he might not realize it but he’d be happier with some kind of dominant drag queen... though I really really hope I’m wrong.
Goodness gracious. Sorry about the novel.
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Sean, I have asked him to "put out or get out " for lack of better words. I asked him if he was still attracted to me. I just get crickets from him. He just gets defensive. He recently got a prescription for ED. I told him that it doesn't work if you aren't interested. I have planned a trip to Turks and Caicos and I plan to just break the news that I'm leaving. I do love him but at this point I'm not in love. Hes pushed me away far too many times and the gaslighting and emotional abuse is far too much for me to take anymore. I told him when two people live together and dont have sex....they're called roommates. I told him I dont want to be a roommate anymore. It's over. Hes kissing my ass a lot but no sex which is fine with me.