Sean,
    I need to push back on this notion that in-denial husbands are "constitutionally incapable" of telling the truth, or that they "cannot be honest."  Say rather that an in-denial husband--or a closeted husband who is not in-denial but duplicitous and manipulative--will not tell the truth and will not be honest.  Such a husband has built for himself a medieval keep, a fortified tower constructed of lies, and has walled himself in.  But he mixed the mortar and laid every stone.

   An in-denial man knows what his sexuality is--you claim he first feels the attraction to other males by the time he's 5 or 6--so it's not that he doesn't know, but that he does not want to admit it.  He makes countless decisions to deny this to himself, each of those countless decisions requiring him to make a choice, and in each case he chooses to lie and deny.  He may insist he has no choice in the face of a homophobic family or a homophobic society but that insistence is a rationalization.  He has a choice.  There have always been gay men who chose to live honestly, or, if they could not live an "out" life, have chosen to live honorably, and not to marry.  

  Yes, a gay boy and adolescent is subject spoken and unspoken pressures in our still heteronormative society, and that can lead to confusion and self-loathing. But a wish to be different or a feeling of shame about the self, and the decision to "go along to get along" does not mean that a man is "constitutionally unable" to tell the truth.  

 I also think your "Stevie Wonder" analogy, which you employ to tell wives they should not let their husbands "drive the marriage bus," which to my eyes and ears looks a lot like an accusation of wives that they are willfully in-denial themselves, fails to take into account 1) the dynamics of marriage, 2) the shock wives experience upon disclosure or discovery, 3) gender dynamics in marriage, and 4)  the tactics of in-denial/closeted husbands. 

1) Spouses have the expectation of honesty from their mates, who have after all promised to love and cherish them.  Especially after disclosure, when the truth (or semi-truth) has emerged, the husband has expressed relief and love, and during that "honeymoon phase," the wife has a heightened expectation that her husband will deal honestly with her.  

2) It is unfair and unrealistic to expect that a wife reeling from discovery or disclosure, who is questioning the basis for and history of her entire marriage, whose husband has been revealed to be something quite other than he has represented himself to be--often quite successfully--will be able to "take the driver's seat."

3) For one thing, even in the most equitable of marriages, prevailing gender dynamics means "the driver's seat" will have usually been occupied by the husband.  Women are raised to defer, even subtly, and men--even gay men--are raised to expect deference.  Women are raised to be emotional caretakers, and men are raised to be taken care of.  I think you do women a disservice when you tell a wife that she has erred in allowing her husband to "take the driver's seat," and to expect her to be able to do so when in shock from the blow her husband has just dealt her.

4) And in-denial or closeted man, in building his keep, has chosen countless times, make countless decisions, to keep his sexuality secret.  He has learned over the years how best to ward off suspicion or his own urges.  He has developed a set of tactics designed to protect this secret, many of which you have identified, and many of which keep his wife at a disadvantage in the marriage.  Some of these are downright outright abusive (avoiding sex by accusations she is undesirable or unworthy), but all, even the seemingly innocuous (such as spending long hours at work to avoid spending time at home where the role of husband to a wife makes him uncomfortable, which can spun as a virtue or wielded as a cudgel should it be needed--"I provide well for this houshold; isn't that enough for you?") is abusive.  It's insidious manipulation.  

Finally, once the truth is out, the husband who does not deal fairly or honestly, or is outright abusive, or ghosts, or is cruel, does not get to fall back on "society made me do it."  He has to own his choices going forward.  That he so often refuses to own them, or rationalizes them, is a reflection of how all those countless decisions and earlier choices warp character.

 

Anon,

 I'm willing to believe that a person can be confused about, or in denial about his (or her) sexuality, and that coming to terms with it can occur in stages, like first declaring oneself bisexual, and only later owning that one is actually gay. 

What I am not willing to accept is that manipulative or otherwise bad or cruel behavior is to be excused.  I'm sorry that my ex lived with the burden he did all his life.  But I'm also sorry that before he admitted it or figured it out that he chose to lie to me, to deceive me, to project his own insecurities and shame onto me, to manipulate me.  That was damaging enough. 

But when he did come out to himself and to me, he continued to manipulate me, to expect that I would act always to his benefit and act toward him as a wife when he refused to act toward me as a husband, expecting 100% acceptance from me while not fully accepting himself and seeing anything less than 100% acceptance on my part as an attack on him. His actions after his disclosure do not get a pass from me.  He was a shit.  And that's on him.  As it is on your stbx.

For what it's worth, I've stopped trying to "untangle the skein" of my ex's "fuckedupedness," as Chump Lady puts it.  I've decided I'm way better served in figuring myself out and focusing on my own future.  For myself (meaning I don't wish this next to come across as a lecture to you, which it emphatically is not), I'm learning to set boundaries and to enforce them (by which I mean be willing to act), to pay attention to actions and not words (my ex was the master of the self-exculpatory word salad) and to respect myself more, so that I don't make excuses ("spackle" in CL argot) or bend on what are my core values.  For a lot of reasons, going back to my FOO (Family of Origin) I didn't have good strong boundaries or the self-respect or self-worth I should have.  Despite a PhD and 35 years in higher education, and the willingness and ability to stand up the administration (the faculty voted to give me an award for it, even!), and independence in mind and action outside my marriage, I have learned that inside it, I deferred and placated and adapted to his manipulations and subtle pressures and unhappiness while not even realizing I was doing it, and rationalizing all the while in ways that made my compromised actions seem like rational decisions made from strength.  

The whole experience has shaken me to the core, and rebuilding is hard, especially rebuilding while trying to heal from the blows that shattered my sense of self.  Some days I think I will never be whole or healthy again.  Some days I just want to give the hell up.  But then I think of the small daily joys and pleasures, and I also think that by god I'm not letting him "win" by breaking me.  I prevail by persisting, even when it's so effing hard.

 

Last edited by OutofHisCloset (April 20, 2023 11:31 am)

Anon,
 I get it.  I had one of those gasp-a-ha moments when my now-ex said to me one day, "I wish I'd never told anyone."  It was like a physical blow to realize that he would have been fine to let me live in ignorance in our compromised marriage for the rest of my life, not knowing what the real issue was, blaming myself (and him blaming me, too--all those behaviors of his that displaced what was his problem and his unhappiness onto me), that I meant so little to him.  It was breathtaking to realize how little I meant to him.  

 

Last edited by OutofHisCloset (April 20, 2023 12:23 pm)

Thank you for posting everyone. In reply: 

1. Okay, so the reason for my post is to offer support to Sean.  Much as I appreciate how you are feeling Anon, expressing it on his thread feels like an attack on him personally and I don't think that's fair - he's not the one who has treated you so badly.  

That's very kind of you but I don't feel at all attacked. OOHC and Anon have been nothing but kind and respectful in their posts and they, along with any other members, are more than welcome to post here as much as they like.

2. Anyway, as I said, posting in support of you Sean, while still on the trail of my personal bugbear - the term bisexuality.  I am hoping you will delve a little deeper into your partner's feelings for women and see what exactly he means. 

If you're referring to my partner's claims he's still attracted to women, wouldn't it be an exquisite bit of karma if he left me for a woman? Now that would certainly be a tasty bit of irony. That said, the last time he slept with a woman was, I believe, in 1993. He only claims to still be attracted to women when we're around heterosexual women...not a mention of it when we're with our gay friends. So I reckon it's part of him still trying to pass on some level. BUT only time will tell.  

3. I'm guessing it's an emotional sort of attraction rather than a sexual one.  I mean, do you believe he actually wants to get into bed with a woman, Sean?  

No, but I've told him many times that he can sleep with a woman if he wants to. Not surprisingly, he's never acted on it. I reckon his attraction to women is more an attraction to female glamour...sort of like a gay man fawning over bejewelled European royals or sparkly Hollywood stars. I reckon he's more attracted to bling than breasts. But I will promise to update if he steps out with a woman. ;)

Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (April 20, 2023 5:40 pm)

Sean01 wrote:

Thank you for posting everyone. In reply: 

2. Anyway, as I said, posting in support of you Sean, while still on the trail of my personal bugbear - the term bisexuality.  I am hoping you will delve a little deeper into your partner's feelings for women and see what exactly he means. 

If you're referring to my partner's claims he's still attracted to women, wouldn't it be an exquisite bit of karma if he left me for a woman? Now that would certainly be a tasty bit of irony. That said, the last time he slept with a woman was, I believe, in 1993. He only claims to still be attracted to women when we're around heterosexual women...not a mention of it when we're with our gay friends. So I reckon it's part of him still trying to pass on some level. BUT only time will tell.

A slightly different take on Bisexuality. I personally have some attraction to women, and I have known plenty of gay guys state they have some attraction to women. However, the problem is the amount and frequency of attraction. It is why I compare it to a dying flashlight (weak.... tends to go out, might work for a few seconds if you shake it) to blinding sunlight (so strong you just can't easily ignore).  If the Pope need to a man to guard a college dorm room of deeply religious young women, there would be a far greater probability of a lesbian sex scandal occurring on my watch than a heterosexual one involving me.

 A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, I was in a gay bar when that famous Pepsi commercial of Britany Spears with Bob Dole came on. It got the attention of a total of one gay man. Who got strange looks from the rest of the men in the bar and even he said He would go after her, if only he was not gay. If Brittany could only entice one man out of a dozen....Houston there is a problem!

The thing with Gay/Bi/Straight is that we want clear easy separate labels, and it is understandable. However real life is messy. Many gay men can have some sexual attraction to women. It is just that the attraction to men tends to be stronger, more frequent, and harder to ignore. While the attraction to women is in various stages of poor to non-functional. 

3. I'm guessing it's an emotional sort of attraction rather than a sexual one.  I mean, do you believe he actually wants to get into bed with a woman, Sean?  

No, but I've told him many times that he can sleep with a woman if he wants to. Not surprisingly, he's never acted on it. I reckon his attraction to women is more an attraction to female glamour...sort of like a gay man fawning over bejewelled European royals or sparkly Hollywood stars. I reckon he's more attracted to bling than breasts. But I will promise to update if he steps out with a woman. ;)

Be well!
 

Gay men can have emotional attachments to both men and women.  Getting in bed with a women is just a lot more complicated on the gay end. He can on some level(even if it is just intellectually ) want to get into bed with a women but the rest of it is a problem,

If there is sexual attraction it tends to be just with only a very few women and not very strong.   Some guys are more bi-functional than others but at the end of the day they would prefer men.

There can be problems with the fact that his partner might not be able to turn him on or he might need to think of a guy in order to function and the functionality could be limited(i.e. Only able to do it under very limited situations). There might not be enough attraction to over ride the ick factor(i.e. You want me to put it where...eweh!!). Or knowing he is strongly attracted to men, he could feel like a phony or fraud about doing it with a women. 

Anyway my experience with guys who where bisexual was that they didn't just want men. They wanted both men and women. They didn't want either/or but both and would happily have both several women and serval men at the same time. With married gay men it tended to be the wife and men, men, men. 
 

Last edited by Diff I guess (April 20, 2023 9:23 pm)