Thank you ImSoConfused ("Confused"), Wild Mushroom ("Mushroom"), and Pinklady ("Pink") for responding. In response to Confused: 

1. Thank you Sean. You aren't being too blunt.

Whew! I'm relieved. 

2. I should add that I've had her [16 year old daughter] in therapy since this came out..I got her in before I got myself in..I'm trying VERY HARD to draw a line for her- one where I am honest with her, but where she doesn't try to fill some sort of supportive role. It can be a very hard line, but I'm running what I'm saying past both our therapists and I'm being told my instincts are good so of all the crazy ways I'm behaving, I do think I'm managing my situation with her well.

Understood. I'd recommend reading my exchanges with RoseColoredGlasses (here is the link) as she shared about a similar situation; namely her oldest son learning dad's secrets followed by a breakdown. While I'd discuss all of this with your therapists, I reckon your daughter's violent reaction to all of this is perhaps jarring you out of the denial stage. (Just yesterday you were describing your husband as "honest" when by any objective standard he's a pathological liar.) Based on our exchanges and based on my years of similar conversations with other straight spouses, I equate these relationships to something like a house fire. But the fire doesn't start immediately, it smoulders...often for decades. The questioning/closeted husband manipulates his wife into not smelling the smoke (downplaying gay porn, racy undwear, and a gay sexting history). The house then starts getting smoky (little to no sex), then it gets really smoky (discovery of gay cheating), but the straight spouse has become so accustomed to living in these toxic conditions that it feels almost...familiar. She's in denial that a fire is coming. Eventually the home becomes so smoky/toxic that her children then start to cough/complain. This forces the straight spouse to not only deal with the reality of her toxic marriage, but also to see staying/divorcing in terms of survival. So what's my point? Most straight wives I've interacted with decide to separate/divorce in the following situations: 

- Her husband is asking for threesomes, an open marriage, or he wants to introduce a male partner to the kids. 
- The straight spouse's mental and physical health are failing to the point that she can no longer remain married. 
- Her children know dad's secret and the toxic home environment is putting their mental/physical health at risk. 

3. Both therapist told me that what she needs right now is someone who is honest.

Agreed. She should also limit her contact with dad as he is the cause of her problems. 

4. So that's what I'm trying to be. It just quickly flips and flops from one side of the "I'm being honest with you" line and then becomes her worrying about me and trying to be there for me and I have to remind her that I'm the adult and she can't be my support.

I'm so very sorry your husband is hurting you all this way. Question: are you going to continue living in this burning house of a marriage or get you and your kids the hell out? 

Mushroom wrote:

1. I've listened to your podcast a few times & read almost all your reply’s here.  I want to thank you for being brutally honest with answers to many questions from others,  it’s helped with my own questions at this time in my life feeling completely lost with no one to turn to.

That's very kind of you. But please keep in mind that I've done most of the terrible things I'm now writing about: namely emotional abuse; cheating; and lying. 

2. Your crystal clear answers & personal insight are truly invaluable.  ( I wouldn’t of viewed my personal situation as I do now, if it wasn’t for your post & links for additional helpful information). Thank you… 

Glad to have helped in some way my friend. 

PinkLady wrote: 

1. I have no idea but the day he went [to a naked sauna] on was the men only day. He has been there early on in our relationship twice. But those two times he went with a friend from work as far as I know.

The same "watching lesbian boxing in a van" friend perhaps? Let's just pause here and review what you've shared: your husband claims to have visited a naked sauna on men's day. And now, he apparently went to the same naked sauna on "only men's" day with a male co-worker. None of this is normal my friend.  

2. At least that’s what he told me back then. When I spoke to the receptionist he did confirm the men walk around naked “but not in a gay way”. That was his words.

Please send me a direct message with the sauna's website. I'll be able to tell you in about 10 seconds whether it caters to gay men. As for the receptionist/manager denying this is a gay sauna, I'm sure he fields about 10 calls a week from straight wives demanding "My husband visited your establishment. Is this a gay sauna?" If I were in his shoes, I'd deny it as well. I reckon the last thing this naked, all-male sauna wants is an hysterical straight spouse knocking on their door demanding to speak to her cheating husband. 

3. Could he have possibly went to have sex with a woman? If it’s a private sex club. Just strange that he went on men only day.

Not really. Let's review the facts: your husband claims to have visited a naked sauna on "men only day." He claims to have had a "manly" talk with another naked man. Later they had anal sex, which your husband claims was a non-consensual sexual assault. That is a rather staggering list of coincidences for a straight man.  

4. The weeks and months even leading up to the sauna experience, he just seemed different. Full of energy and so excited for life. I’d never seen him like this in the 12 years we’ve been together.

This sounds like a form of gay adolescence.

5. That’s when I starting getting suspicious. My intuition told me something was off and when I confronted him about cheating he told me I was paranoid and crazy. That I get too emotional and make up my own stories in my head.

Damn f*cking right you got suspicious. Clever of him to turn the tables and call you paranoid. In no universe is it normal for a straight husband to visit a gay sauna...and yes this is a gay sauna no matter what you're being told by your lying husband. 

6. I actually listened to the podcast before coming here, I came across it on my Google search. I was literally a few minutes into listening and I couldn’t believe how much resonated with me and my relationship. I’ve since read every page on this thread and I am in between thinking “no way this can’t be happening to me!” And “oh my god this whole relationship has been a lie.”

I'm so sorry you're suffering my friend. 

7. I’ve never suspected that he would cheat. Definitely not be GID. At the start of our relationship I had low self esteem and was jealous if he looked in another girls direction. But I’ve matured and grown since becoming a mother and now realise I was being ridiculous. He’s always made me believe he would never cheat because his dad did and he saw what it did to his family.

Like father like son perhaps? 

8. He says he’s a good man and gave up everything for me.

Yes he clearly gave up a lot: namely honesty and going to the local family-friendly swimming pool. He much prefers gay saunas and pathological dishonesty. 

9. I wonder what he means by giving up everything.

I reckon he's referring to the possibility of living as an out, gay man.  

10. On our first date he was wearing his friends trainers that he’d borrowed. That same friend later came out as gay. I’m even wondering if he was a discreet lover before me. My mind is going crazy trying to piece it all together.

This is quite common in gay/straight marriages. 

11. You said gay in denial men can’t perform after gay sex. Last night he woke me up for sex (after 2 weeks of nothing, no hugs or kisses nothing) it was quite mechanical but he did ask if I wanted the dildo and I said no. I wanted sleep that’s what I wanted! He didn’t manage to finish during intercourse I had to finish him, well tried to with my hand, but he took over and finished himself.

You make a very good point here. In my opinion, he couldn't perform - namely maintain an erection, have penis-in-vagina sex, and/or orgasm with his wife. By "perform" I mean loving, mutually satisfying intimacy. If he's using you like a masturbatory tool, rather than enjoying loving, meaningful intimacy during which he focuses on your pleasure, then I don't consider what he did "performing." Based on what you shared, I believe he obsessed about his recent hook up until the wee hours, felt the need to prove to himself that he was indeed straight, and then proceeded to basically masturbate with you there.   

12. Come to think of it, from the beginning of our relationship he’s never been too keen to fully undress me for sex. I can recall having my top on most of the time. It’s strange because I’ve always thought he was into boobs and that’s why he had so many Nuts mags.

Lights off, only doggy style, and/or partially clothed are common red flags in gay/straight relationships. As for the pornographic magazines, he's probably looking at the men in these sex scenes. 

13. I even had a breast enlargement 10 years ago because I was self conscious. He’s never really paid any extra attention to them.

What an *sshole. 

14. When I walked in on him masturbating he at first said he was watching girls showing their boobs. I just still can’t get over him then changing it to - “how do you know it wasn’t a man?” …. What the actual fuck what kind of comment is that?!

In legal circles, this is called a "spontaneous declaration" meaning he blurted out the truth...for once.  

15. This was my exact thought as well. I asked him why all of a sudden he wants to move. He didn’t like that I was questioning it and said that if I love him I should want to support his wishes. Because he would do the same for me.

While this is purely speculation, I reckon he's afraid you'll run into his male lover...likely the man from the sauna. OR he wants to move closer to an out-of-town boyfriend. 

16. Body shaving, sexy underwear, a sudden interest in physical fitness...he’s been doing all of this. Not so many unexplained absences but he has left home after an argument  a few times to stay at his mums. A couple of weeks ago he kept talking about how he wanted to get fit, have a few sun beds, have his teeth whitened and get a hair transplant. He works in Essex so he’s probably seeing a lot of fit, tanned, teethy guys. I don’t know if it’s since he’s been working there he’s realised he’s gay because he’s finding these guys attractive. I know you said you knew from age 5 but I just can’t believe that he could’ve known.

Correct, but I denied I was gay from age 5 to age 42. I didn't fully accept I was gay until my (then) wife confronted me, I reluctantly came out to her, we separated, then divorced. 

17. I’ve never ever questioned how sexuality until now. It was after the sauna, my aunt said maybe he’s bi and I was like nooooo way!! Then the masturbating and him asking me “how do you know I weren’t watching a man?”  My aunt reckons no straight man would even THINK to ask that question.

I agree with your auntie. 

18. Maybe he was watching a man. I’m so so confused and alone right now. 

I'm so very sorry you're struggling my friend. Please keep coming back and sharing your journey. For every straight spouse posting here, there are hundreds eagerly following your journeys. Be well everyone! 

Last edited by Sean01 (November 18, 2022 10:13 am)

Sean,
I'm getting out. It hurts, but I'm getting out. I met with an attorney yesterday. It was disheartening- basically, because I've been able to take care of us so well financially, I can't expect much from that.  I have 2 more appointments coming up. The ball is rolling. There MAY have been a chance of reconciling if there had been honesty. Probably not, but that was the only shot. Now that I know that the lies started before we married, I'm out. There's no saving this. It is going to happen. The attorney suggested I get my ducks in a row and so that's what I'm doing. Opening new LLC for my business, etc. Just a lot to work out but I'm formulating a plan. Thanks for leaning on me though.

Sean,
"An authentic life."
   I understand why you phrased it the way you did, and in some contexts and with some audiences the way you phrased it would be ok, but for us, because we struggle with the feeling that our lives, lived "authentically" by us, were fake, I think the way to phrase it, rather than an "authentic life" is an "honest life."  

Thank you Sean for looking into the sauna. I have no words to explain what I’m feeling. It’s like I have some signs to believe he’s gay but I feel it’s not enough. It’s almost that I want him to be gay so I have a reason for the messy relationship we’ve had. I’ve felt for a long time that he can’t really love me. Like really love me. All the times he’s left us for days on end, with no contact until I ask him to come back. If he really loved us how could he do that? He says since the sauna experience he’s felt broken because I didn’t support him. But I reminded him he was suicidal before that. Was that my fault too? He says yes because I don’t show him enough love. When I listened to Lilys interview and she mentioned her husbands runny nose, it resonated with me. Do we straight spouses start picking out little things we don’t like because we know deep down something is not right in our relationship. This has happened to me I went through a stage where I felt so mistreated and disrespected that every time I looked at him I felt repulsed. I feel terrible admitting that. I do love him and I wish I could take this all away. I asked him why he gives me these dry kisses and he said he’s forgotten how to kiss the way I like it. Keeps talking about how an experience or Trauma can change someone. But never mentioning the word gay. I’m worried that he’s going to hide his gayness and come out years later with the story of “the sauna experience made me gay” it’s like he’s preparing me for the story. I’m picking up on things I didn’t use to even think twice about. My mind is constantly on high alert around him. I’m looking at him like I don’t even know who he is. He’s promising me the whole dream business together he doesn’t want me to have a job he wants me to run the business. He wants me to rely on him as my man. Says I should put full trust in him. But like I said to him, how can I put trust in someone who’s telling me he doesn’t trust me enough to tell me something big that’s on his mind? How can we be a couple yet he has something he doesn’t wanna tell me, and he even feels comfortable enough to tell me that. Does he think I’m stupid? Am I stupid? Maybe too naive.
Sorry just a rant from me this morning.

How’s everyone else getting on?

Good morning all,

Here’s something that happened Thursday. I want to get your take on it. I have husbands location on google maps. I can see where he is at any given time- or where his phone is. Reminder- Some of his cheating was done during work hours when he would leave work during the day for blow jobs. He would also stop off at someone’s house on the way home from work or make excuses to leave the house. I also realize that he could have a second phone and could leave his main phone at work and go wherever he wanted to. So, regardless, I occasionally check his location. One day last week I saw that he had left work at a certain time. His location froze at one place on the way home, so each time I looked, it showed that he was there 15 minutes ago or 25 minutes ago. It was just fishy to me that his location was frozen and I had never seen this happen for this amount of time before. It was probably nothing but I decided to say something to see what his reaction would be. I stated the facts...” I checked the location at 5:00 pm. Your location was frozen at this place for at least 30 minutes. Why did it take so long to get home?” 

Here’s what happened: He started talking about his route coming home. (I realize it’s rush hour traffic so it can be very congested. I just wanted to see how he handled my questioning). He said he went one way then had to adjust the route. Blah blah blah.  I pressed a little harder and then he actually started raising his voice at me!!! He didn’t like it! I said something like, “You are yelling at me because of a situation that YOU have put me in???” I walked away and went into the kitchen and cried, which is my go to reaction these days. I cry all the time. Anyway, I calmed down thanks to a medication I’m having to take. 

Later on I’m walking through the room that he’s in. He said, “I’m sorry that I lashed out. I’ve been feeling stressed lately due to the thought of having to get a prostate biopsy. (Which he had not told me about) He said that his PSA was a little more elevated than last time and add that to the fact that he is now 60 and his dad died of prostate cancer, they are going to do a biopsy. Guess what immediately thought... DISTRACTION. He knows that I would be all over that with questions that it would be a distraction from the fact that a) He has cheated so badly that I am still tracking his location for over a year later. b)That his behavior since DDay has been so crappy that I am still triggered by his lack of sympathy or empathy. C) He didn’t say one single word of reassurance like, “I want you to know that you can trust that I am where I say I am.” Or “I will never put you in position again to worry about where I am.” Or “I am sorry that my terrible actions have caused you to be triggered and upset.” Not one word like that. 

What do you think about that?

I don’t like following him. I stopped for a while because it made me crazy, but now I am watch mode. I am watching him always. It was truly a revelation to know that he’s a narcissist and that I’ve been snowed for years.