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October 9, 2022 2:35 pm  #2021


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you Sean for your reply.

It does still help to hear these things. I know that since this is so fresh from a few days ago that is why I keep holding on to he might change his mind cause I’m having a hard time To come  to terms with losing him after we had discussed these possibilities before ending up on this situation.

I know he will probably not change his mind about me but I would like him to want to be in his daughters life as we are still 2 very calm adults and agree we should co parent the best we can for our child.

 

October 10, 2022 5:12 am  #2022


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you for responding JP. If anyone wants to read your background story, please follow this link: OurPath (formerly SSN) Open Forum » 7 months pregnant and feel like my world has been ripped away from me. (boardhost.com). The short version is as follows: JP's male partner disclosed that he was bisexual at the beginning of their relationship; she is now pregnant and due to give birth in two months; and her partner recently disclosed that he wants to end the relationship, then move away to be with his boyfriend. In response to her last post: 

1. I know that since this is so fresh from a few days ago that is why I keep holding on to he might change his mind cause I’m having a hard time to come to terms with losing him...

I've been posting here for the past six years and during that time have found most straight wives/partners to be very kind, caring, and hopeful...almost hopeful to the point of being naive. So what's my point? The way that he's acting now is who he's been for your entire relationship. While he may have initially minimized or even lied about his attraction to men while swearing his undying love for you, I would urge you to focus on who he is now: namely no longer in love with you and itching to move away to be with another man. While I'm not a mental health professional, I don't believe he'll have a strong bond with your future baby because he's made his goals quite clear: end the relationship with you to make a life with a (male) partner. While incredibly painful, I think you should start to plan your life based on the assumption that he won't be around for either you or your baby. I reckon that by forcing him to be a father or, worse, trying to trap him in fatherhood will only create heartache later in life...for all of you. 

2. ...after we had discussed these possibilities before ending up on this situation.

By "possibilities" I believe you're referring to his bisexuality, while still being in love with you. I'd forget what he's said in the past and focus rather on who he is now: a man in love with another man who is no longer in love with you while also planning to move away. As Maya Angelou once said: "When people show you who they are, believe them." 

3. I know he will probably not change his mind about me but I would like him to want to be in his daughters life as we are still 2 very calm adults and agree we should co parent the best we can for our child.  

Again, I think you're setting yourself up for failure here. Based on what you've shared so far, this man clearly wants to move far away to be with another man. That's his stated goal at the moment. Assuming he'll play an active fatherly role in the life of your unborn child when he's already trying to distance himself - both emotionally and geographically - from you is perhaps unrealistic. I reckon it's safer to assume he won't be playing an active role in your lives and then act/plan accordingly. I'm sorry if that stings but perhaps best to accept reality - he wants to bolt - rather than spend a lifetime expecting/demanding he play a role he's clearly incapable of playing: a straight; hands-on father. Sorry if that stings my friend. 

Please feel free to post again or ask any questions. Be well! 

 

October 11, 2022 10:08 am  #2023


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

 Sean- I hear everything you are saying. I am 57 and he is 60. 

 I definitely feel the need to define and label his sexuality! It’s my right as a wife of 32 years to know who the man is that I’ve been married to and sleeping next to. I’m pretty sure I need to hear it coming out of his mouth. I’ve often thought that he is so out of touch with who he is that he is unable to verbalize.  

What will I do if he hasn’t done anything towards addressing his many problems? I will be packing up and heading to my parents house. At the time of this post, he has a little over a week. I haven’t heard a word from him since I told him this was happening. I’m not holding my breath.

  Once recently, I had a conversation with him about my own sexuality. I will also add that we were swingers for several years in the past 10 years. It was my idea. He was all in. (I’ve since thought he was into it because he wanted to be in the room with naked men). Little did I know that he had met with his first crossdresser before then. We actually had a lot of fun. We met people that we are friends with to this day. It was fun parties and chatting and actually very little sex. He and I were having sex A LOT. One thing about the swinger world is that there are a lot of bi women. I’ve often thought some of them were lesbians married to men. I made the decision that if the opportunity presented itself, that I could kiss a girl or whatever, for the sake of fun and to get the guys excited. I did just that several times. It did absolutely nothing for me. So, in the conversation with him about my orientation, I explained to him what being attracted to someone is for me. I am attracted to men. Men only: their bodies, their smell, their masculinity.. all that good stuff. Anything that I did with a woman during that time, equates to a handshake. All he could say is, “I’m not attracted to men.” I said, “You ARE attracted to men, otherwise how in the world could repeatedly have sex with them?” Over and over. In my mind, a person doesn’t do something again and again for years, if they aren’t attracted to the people they are doing it with. Am I right? 

 I caught him on Sept 11, 2021, when he fell asleep with his Grindr app open. Along with about 250 screenshots that I have of his chats and pictures, I have an ongoing conversation he had with a crossdresser that’s ‘up for anything’ and the 19 year old. He was planning a weekend of fun with them in a hotel. He was planning to bring his toys and the crossdresser was bringing his ladies clothes and lingerie. He planned also to surprise the boy by dressing him up. The boy had expressed a mommy, daddy, son fantasy and my husband was all in to explore that.  

The man that was planning the above sex weekend, is not someone that I know and it’s devastating. He’s such a good father and good provider. He’s fun to be around. We are cyclists that ride about 80 miles every week. We’ve done that together for about 4 years. The fact that he is closeted is unthinkable! He acts as if the sex with men and all of the crap is just little side fun. “It was just a blowjob.” “I was just horny.” It had nothing to do with us and our family and our lives together.  

As for him being of a generation where being gay is unacceptable, I just don’t know. We met in retail and had lots of gay friends. I realize that of course he could say, “There’s nothing wrong with being gay, but I’m not gay!”  

My brain is unable to reconcile what has happened. I read somewhere that it’s like walking out into the street and being hit by an airplane. That’s exactly how I feel. There’s the infidelity and the crossdressing and the blowjobs and the boy and hotels and so much more. Its too much for me to handle.  

Thank you so much, Sean, for being so real with me. I’ve really needed to hear what you have to say. I’m looking at my husband through a different lens now.  

Last edited by Blue769 (October 11, 2022 10:10 am)

 

October 12, 2022 8:36 am  #2024


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Blue. Hugs to you. My relationship with my GID EX BF who was also a narcissist and master manipulator was only 3 years.  When he left me last month, I began getting migraine headaches which I never get. My MD says it’s an acute stress reaction.

Please take care of you. I feel for you and feel the emotion in your story. I’m glad Sean can help with the validation. It feels nice to be here, supported by other people. Stay strong Blue, trust your gut, and ask yourself, does this make me feel good?


You cannot save someone who does not want to be saved.

Believe that we will meet our person and it will get better!!
 

October 12, 2022 11:27 am  #2025


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you for posting Blue and Wonder Woman. In response to Blue's last post: 

1. Sean- I hear everything you are saying. I am 57 and he is 60. 

Understood. In my personal opinion, a 60 year-old closeted man has likely spent decades hiding, minimizing, and lying about his attraction to men. And why? When your husband was born, gay men were still considered mentally ill, a danger to children, and disordered. No amount of watching RuPaul's Drag Race can just deprogram from this negative perception of gay people. 

2. I definitely feel the need to define and label his sexuality! It’s my right as a wife of 32 years to know who the man is that I’ve been married to and sleeping next to. I’m pretty sure I need to hear it coming out of his mouth.

You won't. 

3. I’ve often thought that he is so out of touch with who he is that he is unable to verbalize.  

Correct! 

4. What will I do if he hasn’t done anything towards addressing his many problems? I will be packing up and heading to my parents house. At the time of this post, he has a little over a week. I haven’t heard a word from him since I told him this was happening. I’m not holding my breath.

Good luck. Get ready for his final "Hail Mary" to re-assert control over the relationship, namely: a health scare ("I have cancer!"); stories of childhood abuse (either true or false); or something creative like "I have a sex addiction." He will try to paint himself as the victim while also trying to make you think you are the only person who can save him. 

5. Once recently, I had a conversation with him about my own sexuality. I will also add that we were swingers for several years in the past 10 years. It was my idea. He was all in. (I’ve since thought he was into it because he wanted to be in the room with naked men).

This is more common than you'd think. If your husband is indeed a narcissist, something you disclosed in your first post on this thread, he likely made you feel like swinging was your idea. In fact, it was probably his idea and he manipulated you into believing swinging was the answer to your relationship issues. Fair comment?  

6. Little did I know that he had met with his first crossdresser before then. We actually had a lot of fun. We met people that we are friends with to this day. It was fun parties and chatting and actually very little sex. He and I were having sex A LOT. One thing about the swinger world is that there are a lot of bi women. I’ve often thought some of them were lesbians married to men. I made the decision that if the opportunity presented itself, that I could kiss a girl or whatever, for the sake of fun and to get the guys excited. I did just that several times. It did absolutely nothing for me. So, in the conversation with him about my orientation, I explained to him what being attracted to someone is for me. I am attracted to men. Men only: their bodies, their smell, their masculinity.. all that good stuff. Anything that I did with a woman during that time, equates to a handshake. All he could say is, “I’m not attracted to men.” I said, “You ARE attracted to men, otherwise how in the world could repeatedly have sex with them?” Over and over. In my mind, a person doesn’t do something again and again for years, if they aren’t attracted to the people they are doing it with. Am I right? 

Yes! This is a textbook example of gaslighting. Gaslighting is a tool used by personality disordered people to make you doubt reality. And a classic example is: "Yes I sleep with only men, cross dress, and hid all of this out of shame, but I'm still not gay." The example I used in my last podcast interview with "Our Path" is as follows: suddenly a husband is spending lots of time in the basement, without his wife, and when he comes back upstairs the wife notices he has flour on his hands. She asks why and he immediately gets defensive. Over the course of the next year, this behaviour repeats, she questions what he's doing "Are you baking downstairs?", and he continues to deny he's doing anything wrong. Inevitably, his wife starts looking around the basement for proof and finds all kinds of pots, pans, butter, and flour...everything well hidden of course. She then checks his computer and finds countless baking videos, websites, and chat messages on baking forums. She then of course confronts him about his baking hobby to which he angrily screams: "I'm not interested in baking!" This is a g-rated example of the closeted husband's broken logic.  The same absurdity applies to sex with men: if he isn't interested in having sex with men, why spend countless hours texting, chatting, web searching, and having sex with men? Men have sex with men because there is an attraction to men. Period. 

7. I caught him on Sept 11, 2021, when he fell asleep with his Grindr app open. Along with about 250 screenshots that I have of his chats and pictures, I have an ongoing conversation he had with a crossdresser that’s ‘up for anything’ and the 19 year old. He was planning a weekend of fun with them in a hotel.

For those who don't know, Grindr is a gay hook up app. First and foremost, I'm so sorry he's put you through all of this. As I did above with the "I don't like baking" example, a good way to test the warped logic of a gay/straight marriage is to change the players. I often ask straight spouses: how would you have reacted had this threesome been with two women rather than two men? Cheating is cheating in my opinion, regardless of gender. 

8. He was planning to bring his toys and the crossdresser was bringing his ladies clothes and lingerie. He planned also to surprise the boy by dressing him up. The boy had expressed a mommy, daddy, son fantasy and my husband was all in to explore that.  

I don't think many of us would define him as a good husband. 

9. The man that was planning the above sex weekend, is not someone that I know and it’s devastating. He’s such a good father and good provider. He’s fun to be around. We are cyclists that ride about 80 miles every week. We’ve done that together for about 4 years. The fact that he is closeted is unthinkable! He acts as if the sex with men and all of the crap is just little side fun. “It was just a blowjob.” “I was just horny.” It had nothing to do with us and our family and our lives together.  

Many closeted husbands are scarily comfortable living two lives: the seemingly perfect husband/father and then a crossdressing Grindr sex fiend online. I reckon your husband isn't a bad person per se, he's likely spent his entire life living a dual gay-straight existence and he's just better at it and more comfortable living this way than you. In fact, he's so comfortable at living this way, namely doing whatever he wants sexually without you, that he's trying to make you feel like you're f*cking up this perfect existence. 

10. As for him being of a generation where being gay is unacceptable, I just don’t know. We met in retail and had lots of gay friends. I realize that of course he could say, “There’s nothing wrong with being gay, but I’m not gay!”  

If I had a dollar for every time I heard some anti-gay Evangelical say, "I have gay friends" I'd be a millionnaire. There is a huge difference between tolerating gay people and defining yourself as gay. Closeted husbands have often created an entire exisitence around being the perfect, heterosexual husband/father. Suddenly coming out as gay at work, at the golf course, at church, and at the country club seems impossible. And straight husbands need their wives to keep up appearances so I wouldn't expect him to let you go quietly. 

11. My brain is unable to reconcile what has happened. I read somewhere that it’s like walking out into the street and being hit by an airplane. That’s exactly how I feel. There’s the infidelity and the crossdressing and the blowjobs and the boy and hotels and so much more. Its too much for me to handle.  

I'm so sorry he's putting you through all of this...while he appears to be perfectly fine with it no doubt. I'd encourage to you to speak to a mental health professional, perhaps with trauma therapy experience, contact "Our Path", and keep posting here to gain clarity while also getting support. 

12. Thank you so much, Sean, for being so real with me. I’ve really needed to hear what you have to say. I’m looking at my husband through a different lens now. 

That's very kind of you. If I'm reading all of this correctly, your husband wants to pretend nothing has changed. He's acting like there is nothing wrong with cross dressing, creeping Grindr, and f*cking men while no longer having sex with you (his wife). Wrong. This isn't love nor how any of us would define marriage. You deserve better. 

Please keep coming back and sharing your journey. I believe that for every straight spouse posting here, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of straight wives following your journeys. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (October 13, 2022 12:47 am)

 

October 24, 2022 4:35 pm  #2026


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Hi Sean- I recently dated a 67 y.o. man who was a year out of his divorce from a 35 yr. marriage.  He admitted up front that he developed a little problem with porn the last couple years of his marriage, because his wife never wanted sex.  He made it a point then to tell me that he only looked at heterosexual material, ( kinda mweird that he would have said this??) and that he was able to stop looking at porn with an app blocker and also that his therapist said he didn’t have a porn addiction.  That was only time the subject of porn came up.  Our chemistry/physical attraction was great.  Fast forward, we had an on again off again relationship, where he would suddenly end it (3 times), and the last was the final.   I always thought it was because he wasn’t over his ex wife. ( She wanted the divorce).  But now looking back, I wonder if it was because he still had a porn addiction ( which I assumed he had stopped like he said he did), and maybe he was gay or bi?  He was able to orgasm a couple of times with hand job or bj.  In bed, although he was clearly turned on , he was  very apathetic, didn’t want to touch or please me and when we tried to have vaginal intercourse, he could not climax, and after long time of trying, just rolled over.   The last time I saw him, we spent the day together, and he showed up to my house very crabby. When I asked him what was wrong, he said he was tired  He hardly talked to me and there was absolutely no affection, hand holding, kissing, etc.  ( unlike the passionate kissing and his always clear state of arousal in the past).  In fact one of times he broke up with me saying he didn’t want to confuse passion for love.  During our last day together/dinner, he said he didn’t want to have sex that night.  He slept over and went home next morning, with no kissing, cuddling or anything. I txted him later the next day that I understood the no sex, but was upset about the no affection.  Then I asked him if he was still having a hard time about his ex-wife  He said no it wasn’t her and it wasn’t me, that it was him and he was just messed up right now.  He had a hard time opening up and I never tried to pry for what was going on with him.  When he said he was just messed up, he said maybe his therapist could help that week and disinvited me to his house that week.  I  then said later on that day that I deserved more than breadcrumbs, etc.  He never answered my txt.  A couple days later, I txted him again all upset about it still  and regretful that we ended it.  He said he was still trying to find himself, didn’t have the time or energy he thinks a committed relationship would take, etc.  Every excuse in the book.  He even made a comment that he didn’t know if he would ever know himself well enough to give to someone else.  A few weeks later, I saw him active on the dating site where we had originally met, and called him out on it and said some really nasty things to him.  He denied being on the site and in response to my telling him his ex-wife was right, that he was a selfish, narcissistic porn addict, he angrily said he was not a sex or porn addict and for me to take care of myself and that he would take care of himself.  He has not been active on the dating site since then.   I apologized in a txt about everything I had said, and he accepted it.  He also said he was focusing on his work and taking care of himself. A few months went by and I txted him to see if he could meet up for a drink abd he said: “No, sorry.”  I have never felt so hurt and shaken up, and am still not over it all.  I remember after our 1st break up, he said he was a mess, didn’t know who he was and that after talking with his ex-wife, he realized he wasn’t in a position to move forward with his life, despite our mutual attraction.  This is how I thought he was not over her yet.   I am so confused because we had so much passion and chemistry, had lots in common, etc.    In his dating profile, when he 1st reached out to me, he totally love-bombed me,  and he did mention that he didn’t think it was manly to be vulnerable in his marriage.  He also told me he had an avoidant attachment style.  He was not effeminate at all, very masculine looking, acting and dressing.  I  wish I knew what the heck happened and wonder if you have any thoughts about this?  Thanks! hi

 

October 25, 2022 11:59 am  #2027


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you for posting single mom. I don't have enough information to determine whether this man is gay or straight, however, I do have enough information to confirm that he's a world-class *sshole! In his own words: 

"He said he was still trying to find himself, didn’t have the time or energy he thinks a committed relationship would take, etc.  Every excuse in the book." 

Translation: "I'm f*cked up and not that into you." My advice: move on my friend...in fact RUN! When straight partners struggle with staying in a relationship, reconciling after conflict, or just breaking up, I often ask them to write a "help wanted" ad for the position of husband or (in your situation) life partner. If his resumé read:

60+ year old divorced narcissist seeks stable relationship. About me: I'm bad in bed so no vaginal sex possible; I'm very cold/detached; am a porn addict; and might also be gay. 

If this were an employer/employee situation, would you even give someone this monumentally unqualified an interview? Of course not. So why then trust this man with your heart? Move on my friend and STOP contacting him. Date someone who's chasing you, not the other way around. You deserve better and will only find Mr. Right when you stop pursuing losers like this. I hope that helps. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (October 25, 2022 12:26 pm)

 

October 25, 2022 4:24 pm  #2028


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Sean,
Thank you so much for replying to my post.  I thought I had healed from being attracted to narcissists ( my Mom and ex-husband were both).  Sadly, these kind of people are very familiar to me.  I need to heal myself from the repetition compulsion/ trauma bonding relationship dynamic once and for all.  I surely appreciate your input and support!

 

October 27, 2022 7:48 am  #2029


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Hello all ,
This is a shout out to Sean . My story started in 2019 /2020 wirh a deterioration in my marriage which started with my ex having mental health issues- depression. Brief history, ( I do need to add he has narcisstic traits which ultimately made the whole experience even more complex and abusive)
Met when we were both 42,  both of us coming out of abusive relationships, he a marriage, me longterrm partner
Love bombing, I got joyfully pregnant ( 1st time) after a few months, moved in together , had our son and then twins 2 years later, WONDERFUL
We married in 2017, Almost immediately things went wrong, depression \verybal abuse and erectile dysfunction on his part
Came to crisis point and he " admitted " he "may be bisexual " and that this was a factor in his previous marriage ending ( told me she had an affair) and a previous engagement ending as well.
I played along, feigned support , tell me more, came out with sexual fantasiies about having sex with men, discussed where he had done this previously ( but OBVIOUSLY ) not since he had met me ! and that if he didnt " come out" he would kill himself"
So he came out via Text to family and friends.. He " adored " me wanted to keep our family intact, swore monogamy etc, and that despite this we would be a family forever...I was so confused and blindsinded that I didnt know what I was doing or feeling , just a relief that he wouldnt be so depressed.
So I reached out to Sean , what was in this mans mind??
Well basically this is a warning..it played out exactly as he predicted,   a honeymoon phase,  a gay adolesence, narcissistic rage and in my case him  going back  in the closet 
Anyway I didnt really believe Sean.., I thought my handsome , highly successful family man would not go down that road ...but he DID exactly that on the timeline Sean predicted
It ended badly. after 18 months . Started with a collection of dildos I insited he throw out escalated the ED.Then I told him that monogamy needed to be maintained within the marriage or it would be over, he went crazy  ,, the more I stood up to him the more the relationship deteriorated and ultimately he attacked me physically and we ended up in court with safety orders etc
So l left  in fear of my life , he attended the mental health services and a counselling service who pronounced him  according to himself  as being "straight" , after he had addressed " the elephant in the room " and thus had  resolved his issues!!.This was after months of verbal/text abuse from him because I would not reconcile and support him because he " loved me and wanted his family back "
He now has a girlfriend. She is very thin and almost androgynous , it will suit him..She knows who he is as I told her but again he is straight now...and she believes him.
What I am trying to say is that this is a NO WAY OUT situtation.For your own mental health these unions have to be disolved .
He told me he knew since he was 10 that he preferred men and yet went on to have 4 children in 2 marriages and is now entering into another relationship with a woman
Sean was spot on
These people are deceptive, selfish, disordered and have no empathy or sense of consequence .My only advice to anyone faced with a partners confession of either gender or sexuality identity issues is to leave as soon as it is safe to do so .
It cant and wont work.
It will drag the other partner down a chasm of questionning, confusion , grief , feelings of inadequacy /hoplessness etc 
Please take heed of the warnings
Blessings x 

 

October 28, 2022 3:16 pm  #2030


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you for sharing Virion, although I'm so very sorry your future ex-husband is being so abusive. I've been posting on this forum for almost six (6) years and I agree with you that most gay/straight marriages follow the same timeline. And that timeline is: 

Stage 1: The marriage is largely sexless, often from the beginning, as the closeted husband just isn't interested in sex with his wife.  
Stage 2: The closeted husband is discovered on gay porn, cheating with men, or on Grindr. He says he's just "curious", was abused, or he minimizes his wrongdoing ("It's just blowjobs.") 
Stage 3: The couple doubles down on the relationship through counselling and experiences a 3-4 month "honeymoon" phase of what appears to be better communication. The closeted husband often claims his "same sex attraction" is due to childhood abuse. This is often a lie. 
Stage 4: The closeted husband gets caught multiple times (porn/cheating/Grindr), shows little to no interest in counselling, and is now openly defiant about his sexual interest in men. During this phase, he may claim to be "bisexual" but still maintains he "doesn't want to be in relationship with another man." Often he starts pushing for an open marriage to "have his needs met." The couple repeats stages 2 & 3 until the relationship breaks down or until the straight spouse starts breaking down emotionally/physically.  
Stage 5: The marriage is now sexless, toxic, and (quite often) highly abusive. The closeted husband grows more bold with his cheating. The straight spouse reluctantly separates and, later, divorces.  

As I shared during two recent podcasts: 

S4 Ep 3: A “Narcissist in Recovery” Gets Real - OurPath
S5 Ep 5: A Former Closeted Narcissist in Recovery Answers Your Questions - OurPath

the straight spouse and closeted spouse have completely different goals. Her goal is to heal him, often at the expense of her own mental/physical health. She believes that by healing him, she will eventually fashion her prince charming. Sadly, this rarely happens. The goal of the closeted husband, on the other hand, is to hide and deny his true sexuality...at any cost. And he needs his wife and children to maintain the charade of being a straight man. For me personally, I didn't truly love my (then) wife. I loved the role she played as my beard. I hope that helps my friends. If you have any questions for a gay ex-husband, please feel free to post them below. Be well!           

Last edited by Sean01 (October 28, 2022 3:23 pm)

 

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