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June 17, 2022 9:30 pm  #71


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

okay so butch can mean masculine looking but in the terms I used it, it simply means the dominant one in that dynamic.  femme is the submissive type.  Not all dominant lesbians look butch, far from it.  some are strikingly beautiful.

I don't think it's fair to say the man has been attracted to a more masculine woman.  

Did you know you were marrying a lesbian?  The reasons people stay in MOMs are things like finances and children and not about wanting the mixed orientation sex life.

But there are other deeper aspects aren't there.  One of them is still loving your wife.  

I follow what you are saying, Dutchman, but we seem to disagree about the fundamental nature of orientation, it's visceral - gets you in the guts.

 

June 18, 2022 3:30 pm  #72


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

I was a bit hesitant to get into this conversation but still… when I think about it I'd like to add something.
I can't change if someone has a strict judgment about my sexuality that comes down to: "not the individual but the general opinion is right, someone who is gay can't handle things differently, feelings can't change". Anyone who falls outside of that cannot be considered like a serious option and is nothing but a fairy tale. In other words, they hide their feelings at the expense of themselves and others.
 
Exactly the point we want to make clear how different this is (and has become) to us.
Because as individuals you don't get lumped together with “everyone else”, and we have found a way to each other that puts us as individuals next to each other in love and completeness of both of us.
 
If one can't believe that or imagine that for themselves, then I understand that too. It is also quite difficult to explain in a comprehensive way that's easy to follow. And I assume it's difficult to realize that someone can deal with things in a completely different way, which did create the possibility of a completely new path….
But the difficulty to understand shouldn't stop everyone from thinking about it for themselves. Even if the face of the repeated critical questions from a “negative it's impossible” attitude. Basically stating “she is lying, and submissive to her own feeling, keeping something from you” attitude... Oh man, it's frustrating to be confronted with that over and over.
 
Because it should be obvious there are people who actually do follow a different way.
People who do not fall within an existing picture. Who don't want to deceive their spouse and do not want to hide and ignore their "being" and feeling, sexuality and identity. Sincerely and with love and with common sense. With all their heart they want to not just find themselves and their partner in a problem, but also actually are willing to take well-considered steps from those frames and find a deep peace and conviction in them. NOT out of submission or other negative principles, but from real change because it is right and because what they choose is more than good.
 
We are talking about a MOM, a marriage with a way through trouble and not matching sexuality. That's what we had to deal with. No more and no less. And no, Dutchman didn't know about my lesbian feelings when we married. And as one can no doubt gather from what I have already written: I myself did not know either. On top of that, I'd like to point out that I also didn't know what it was to be straight or what that meant. You can believe that or not, but that says more about the other person than it does about me. I can't defend that based on a forum and people reading something on the other side of the world and simply saying, "That's not possible." because their own convictions apparently do not allow.
 
I don´t deny that I've been handling things wrong for many years. But from the moment where my mind and view of things changed, I also learned how to place my sexuality and how I interacted with it and finding my way to a much better place emotionally and sexually.
Which opened a door in me, a bridge could be built to my partner and eventually a new different seed blossomed, working something in me that was separate from my SSA feelings and giving straight feelings a chance to develop next to it. I still find it astonishing every day, but I enjoy it to the fullest!
Was that because of religion and pray the gay away?…oh no!
Was that because of the cultural mindset of “follow your gut”? Oh no! Far from it!
Was it because Dutchman asserted himself as a dominant overlord, or rather resigned himself to my emotional absence?... Certainly not!
 
I am and will continue to have SSA feelings. Why should I deny and bury my sexuality and that which is part of myself? Doing so would proliferate in a kind of silent oblivion in my heart and being. That is precisely what leads to anger and resentment! And perhaps it encourages compulsion, in your person AND in your expression. For that denying and burying is not about being real! It's pure fake!
Or should we each start some affair outside the door? That too is fake. And deprives yourself and certainly your straight partner of the respect and appreciation who did not choose the situation, and is forced to do go down with it. Maybe it will be a solution for some, I certainly don't want to pass judgment on that. But for us we describe what we arrived at, our bottomline.
 
My feeling and sexuality in the totality of my being have come to a place where it is real and can be experienced and felt. Both by myself and by my husband.
That's not a fairytale. That's not kidding myself. That's not kidding my husband.
On the contrary, it's being who you are, fully accepting who you are and not being stuck in a prison of "I can't, I don't want to, and I should". But fundamentally and with deep conviction accept and appreciate who you are, but equally the other, my husband, as well. In its entirety of all it encompasses. And I can tell you this: it feels great and complete.


What I want to identify with involves so much more than just my sexuality, it holds my legacy of faith, value, trust and who I want to be. 
 
     Thread Starter
 

June 20, 2022 6:04 pm  #73


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

Hi Sam,

You know what?  reading your post reminds me of that saying where when you point the finger you have three fingers pointing back at yourself.

I'm not questioning your accounting of your relations!

It strikes me that the relational dynamic of top and bottom has a big impact on how MOMs play out.  I think it helps people understand what is happening in their own relationship to factor it in and yet it is just about as shrouded in the fog of denial as orientation is.  I then went on to say it creates profound emotions.  I'm entirely respectful of it!

I finished by saying personally I would not want to engage that way when the orientation isn't also compatible.  It is an instinctive sense of it not being a good idea that makes me feel that way.  It is more, for me personally, the way my gut feels about it, it's a health issue.  

However, I am not about to point the finger at what anybody does, life is not just what our instincts guide us towards, it is situational.  and we are all in this together.  

Thank you for acknowledging you do not know what it is like to be straight - it's the same for us we don't know what it's like to be gay.  Tho yes, as we get older and learn more I think we do become a lot more understanding.  I also recognise sexual orientation is only one factor in what makes a person who they are.  

Last edited by lily (June 20, 2022 6:14 pm)

 

June 26, 2022 10:48 am  #74


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

Hi Lily,

It's not always that clear what the scope of your post is, do you refer to certain types of MOM's, all types of MOM's, specific types of gay/lesbian or not...? Et cetera. It's in the way you write I suppose, but it creates plenty of room for misunderstandings.

Did you know you were marrying a lesbian?  The reasons people stay in MOMs are things like finances and children and not about wanting the mixed orientation sex life.

Answer to the first question is no, but I assume you knew that.
The reasons why people stay in MOM's (or straight marriages as well) are diverse. The reasons you mention were not ours, still we're in a MOM. And even when only counting the years after disclosure, our relation lasts longer than the average straight marriage. So other reasons are at play. Sure, we could be some strange anomaly, but I don't think so and that's why we also explain (as good as we can) how we dealt with our situation and how we relate to each other.

You throw in a new concept: "The mixed orientation sex life".
Well, what's your definition of that? For it sounds ominous and has a negative ring to it. Do you think there is some generic truth for all MOM's sex life? (that's what the wording you chose seems to suggest).

But there are other deeper aspects aren't there.  One of them is still loving your wife.  

So now you seem to expand "the mixed orientation sex life" to something that also includes love.
But what about "the straigt orientation sex life", wouldn't make love a difference there too?

You choose to limit "the love" aspect to me, the straigt spouse loving my wife. 
That's odd, for wouldn't the love of my wife for me, make an equally important difference? Why wouldn't that be part of the deeper aspects as well?

I follow what you are saying, Dutchman, but we seem to disagree about the fundamental nature of orientation, it's visceral - gets you in the guts.

There is a fundamental aspect in sexual orientation, that is: a certain aspect of it is inmutable. But if and how this effects couples in a MOM, differs very much.
The strict categorizing people into sections (Straight, Bi, Gay) is not helpful. It freezes people into a rigid way of thinking (both the straight and the gay spouses are affected by it).
On  the other hand, there is some boundary where sexual orientation is decisive and spells certain doom to a MOM. 
It's not slowly progressing gay -> more gay.
I think the "extreme gay", usually won't get into a MOM. The kind that know their sexuality from early childhood, but also have a distinct distaste for physical contact with the other sex. And only because of very strong internal or external force they cross the line and marry someone of the opposite sex. For example the narcissist that would do everything to upkeep his/her selfserving image to the outside world does the trick. Or the religious "hell and damnation" can assert that much pressure (also social environment pressure can play that role). The MOM's that result are actually a special kind (and quite doomed and very damaging to the straight as well). Now i'm generalizing, and maybe there exist exceptions, but I think this is mostly fact.

But these extreme gays are in essence exceptions to find themselves in a MOM, a much larger portions of MOM's are not of that composition. And the gay is more like the Kinsey 5 or 4. Eventhough sexual orientation is not matching, potentially they can find very different ways. It's comparing apples and oranges, if it's seen on the same setting as the "extreme gay", forced into opposite sex marriage. It's quite different, but contemporary culture doesn't acknowlegde it, the general public thinks in labels and clear cut divisions. All neat and easy. People are persuaded to think it's unavoidable to follow these simple lines of thought. Not just straight but gay as well and get caught up in a believe how things are and thus should be. And this becomes cultural thinking, that's not some thing in the sky, it influences peoples thought.
It's causing a lack of freedom of thinking and mind.

If one provides opportunity those in a MOM can come into territory where they make other choices. Not obscured by the rigid thinking that forbids any thought. For some this equals "open relations", as prove of freedom in thinking. But I think that's actually following another line of cultural script. Freedom to choose for a monogamous relation, because that's what makes both happy in a relation really equals freedom and love. But some will differ with me/us on that.
Whatever they (in a MOM) decide is dependent on many factors, mutal love certainly being one of them. But there are many more factors that make or break a really happy and succesful relation. Being in a MOM doesn't lift someone out of this and vice versa for straight marriages.

Last edited by Dutchman (June 26, 2022 10:59 am)

 

July 14, 2022 7:12 pm  #75


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

I am sorry you had to wait for my response Lily…
but first of all, given your reaction, I think that you don't fully understand me. I think we're at least both not understanding each other.
Which of the three fingers should I recognize pointing at myself???
May be you didn’t notice that my previous post was about the ongoing conversation and NOT just about your post.  
 
Dutchman and I testify to our course in our marriage which is a MOM, but observe and recognize that there are certain thoughts that stubbornly, again and again arise as soon as we want to make a positive sound.
 
I did not go into the discussion you had with Dutchman about the how, what and why's of a top bottom, butch femme lesbian, and whatever.
Which I, as an adult married woman, don’t recognize nor identify with at all.
But I find it actually worse, that Dutchman has to defend our marriage and relationship in that regard, prove the contrary in order to tell a positive story while he is saying from the beginning that this is not the case for us... Strange...isn't it?
However, what I did feel while reading your posts in the conversation was as worrying and undermining.
So my question to you is: What is the relevance of your remarks about top-bottom-butch-femme in this  current topic? Why bring that up as some reasonable argument, when the picture we're giving over and over again is completely different.
Is it suggesting some "red flag" where there isn't one?
 
To elaborate some more on pointing the finger, yes I did point a finger…Though not directly at you, but more in general in this section and specifically in light of the recent conversation in the thread. We regularly encounter reactions that try to minimize our story and view. Demeaning choice of words that suggest our story implausible, as someone put it “the straight spouse needs facts, not fairytales”.
 
As if the only acceptable approach on Our Path should be:
- lets not tell it actually can be different also.
- Let's stick to a heartache that will never heal.
- Let's stick to “nothing can ever change”.
- Lets stick to a broad general way of thinking and nothing else.
- Lets stick to just the hurt, sad and deprived of own dignity. And dwell in a long bottomless never-ending story.
 
As if this is basically what the MOM section would be for…
If that would be the case then the “strategies for MOM's” section should be named: “Strategies to cope because there is no way out”. Because that might be a better description then, while “Strategies for MOMs” really suggests something else…. for (new) people who come here and have hope there actually are possible encouraging ways through this turmoil.
 
Shouldn't it ALSO be an option to tell people a different side?
Some say “ this is a straight spouse network!!"
Yes! It very much is…!! But “Strategies for MOM's”, especially towards a successful MOM, includes always, and should by all levels and labels, concerns two people. So even though the not-straight spouse isn’t posting directly, their choices and stances are as important as the straight spouse’s.
 

I'm not questioning your accounting of your relations!

I am glad you don’t. But I hope you do understand that some statements carry an impression which are not very constructive, so why bring them into a conversation, what’s the point of it? What are you trying to achieve with it other then casting doubt?
 
I am using this quote (like I mentioned in the first paragraph I absolutely do not want to go in to the subject matter itself…) as an example: "it strikes me that the relational dynamic of top and bottom has a big impact on how MOM's play out."(end quote), making such a statement I find a bit questionable, because : Where did you get the reason you had to mention this in the first place and as if this has bearing on every MOM.
What does it has to do with the subject at hand, where is the relevance to our story or a successful MOM?
It implicates or is suggesting something underneath ….without saying it. Bringing doubt to the (new) reader. Why is that? Keep in mind posts were in fact to start thinking about a “first aid kid” or “how to guide”.  
 

“I would not engage that way when the orientation is not compatible”

Though I understand, from what you wrote and your situation your gut would not engage, but what if that situation would have been completely different? No gaslighting, no narcistic behavior, but simply looking out for one another, loving each other. Still difficulties to overcome? Sure! But… wouldn’t such years have given an other gut feeling?
Besides that it gives no base to imply that to be a gut fact for every MOM. Where did you get the impression that our relationship is not compatible? After all…most of my responses and what you read from Dutchman most surely give a very different view. So what do you think we are precisely talking about?
My gut would respond quite the opposite if I would have heard a story like ours twenty years ago…and it would make me curious to know every detail that would have helped in the situation.
I don't think that has changed over the years for many others…:searching for a way through the troubles instead of a direct door out or barring a burden for many years.
 

“Thank you for acknowledging you do not know what it is to be straight – it's the same for us we don't know what it's like to be gay”.

When I stated this in my post, I was revering to a time long ago, before I even knew I was gay. I think I have a clear picture of it now. As I do also know my feelings stemming from my sexual orientation for woman. I can distinct them and differentiate probably more than many many others today.
The way you take this sentence out of it's original context minimizes it to something I did not say. “Did not know” is entirely different to “do not know”. However, you stick that to me as clarification about me that fits your line of thought. That's not fair, is it…?
Precisely why I felt the need to write my post in the first place.
 
You say you don't know what it is to be gay. I don't mind that and is even understandable. I do however mind that you seemingly make the evaluation that if you don't know, then I, as "a lesbian", can not know what straight is either, and that is a wrong assumption. I bet, you do not know what some woman living a few blocks down the road, exactly feels and experiences about her sexuality… straight as she might be. And do you for example comprehend what is to be a straight man and how he feels?
Therefore sexual orientation is not the basic level to know what a woman, even a straight woman, should feel and live by. Thank God for that. The word “straight” does have a revealing notion…doesn’t it? For it not only means not to be gay but also true-hearted, open, honest, and so on…
You should look it up…
And I think this concerns especially my spouse. That has only so much to do with orientation but far more with who I want to be in the core of being as a person, as a woman, as a wife.
I do very well know and feel what I am and mean to my spouse right in my gut and emotional passioned being. I do know what it is to be a woman, to be myself, to give my self, to have a deep inner connection with my spouse, sexually wanting and longing for him, feel him, cherish and nurture that desire as he does mine!
 
Sam


What I want to identify with involves so much more than just my sexuality, it holds my legacy of faith, value, trust and who I want to be. 
 
     Thread Starter
 

July 16, 2022 6:17 pm  #76


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

Hi Sam, I don't know that this conversation between the Dutchman, you and myself is going to go much further, we are starting to go round the same bushes twice.

I'm a woman too you know, and I am comfortable with making differentiations - straight / lesbian, femme / butch and I don't want to be Woman, married or otherwise.  That's a bush we've been round before.  

Here's a bush I've been avoiding, let's not go round it, please just accept that I have a different world view to you.  I don't believe in a God - that's between individuals, any more than I believe in a Woman or a Man - there's multiples!

Personally I think there are heaps of MOMs, but however you slice it, many many people are in MOM's, whether the straight spouse knows it or not - and my personal opinion is very firmly held - for the straight spouse the thing they are losing is the chance at happiness.  Sorry, but it is my honestly held opinion, and neither you or the Dutchman has said anything to make me feel different - I am glad for you both that you have achieved a MOM that you are happy with, I in no way wish to decry it, good for you - but this is not the happiness inherently the straight spouse seeks.

Sometimes people don't want to be kept hoping - and yes, it can be hurtful for someone who has already been trying their best for a long, long time.

Last edited by lily (July 16, 2022 6:28 pm)

 

July 18, 2022 9:36 am  #77


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

lily wrote:

...but this is not the happiness inherently the straight spouse seeks

Well, this is an odd and stout statement to make.
For I'm straight, and the marriage I'm in is definitly what I seek, and find happyness in, and more!

However, this was certainly not the case when my wife disclosed 17 years ago. Back than things weren't what I wanted or hoped for, and I felt unhappy, sometimes desparate and considering divorce.
But our situation wasn't frozen in that time frame. We fought and strugled our way out of it. That's what we're writing about, for a MOM will indeed be a disaster if both aren't willing and committed to go that path towwards eachother.

For some reason, you are frozen in your evaluation of what we tell about our way through it. You aren't religious you say, but you're certainly dogmatic. Your stance, feels no different to me than a traditional conservative Pharisee that condemns everything to hell and damnation, if it's not in line with the "one true religion" they've constructed and prescribing upon the rest of humanity.
I wouldn't care and ignore it, if it only impacted those relations that aren't loving, committed and/or both aren't willing to find a way out of the troubles. But you wield your opinion like a machine gun.

But note: There is a very different and distinct group of people, who do want a honest and loving relation, despite the sexual orientation mismatch that revealed itself. They are willing to put in the effort to work towards eachother, even if it's through hardship. Doing so they touch the meaning of Real Love, and can actually be finding it. For those the "Pharisee in black robes" has nothing to offer and will only be harmfull. 

What about those people "you don't understand", what they are doing, and where they ended up with.
They:
Love each other.
Trust each other.
Are committed to each other.
Have sexual pleasure being with each other (giving and taking)
Fullfilment and acknowledement being who you are as man and woman.
Are attracted to each other.
Communicate openly and honestly.
Celebrate life with each other.
...I could extend the list of where our marriage has come to.

Yep, not all was in place when we started, but the important thing is what it became! It doesn't has to be frozen in a situation.
If we both would have been straight, we had to learn all these things too. Chances are we missed out on it. For many aspects don't come with just being "straight and all's well".
If there's a fairytale going arround on SSN, that would be that being straight is the answer to everything and happy marriage is guaranteed.
No way, it's about individual persons, having a certain character, making their personal decisions and choices.

 

July 18, 2022 1:37 pm  #78


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

Dutchman - we might disagree on a lot of things but I have not attacked or criticised you or Sam and yet increasingly you do so to me.  Now I'm a machine gun toting pharisee in black robes and I expect you use the term dogmatic as an insult too.

Green dress, cream cardigan and I have a cat!

 

 

July 19, 2022 9:05 am  #79


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

Lily,

in one phrase you state:
- no straight spouse can be happy in a MOM
- affirm that I/we achieved a happy MOM
- this is not real happiness for any straight spouse

This is a contradiction. 
If you state that no straight spouse is really happy in a MOM, that obviously includes me.
But if you affirm that I'm happy in my MOM, that contradicts your other statements.

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways!
 
Maybe you like to think that you're not attacking or criticizing, but by putting it in that contradicting choice of words, you certainly are. Moreover, this is not incidental, but rather a pattern in many of your writings.


If you yourself wouldn't feel happy in any form of MOM, because of your personal feelings, that's okay. Knowing your personal experience in your life and former marriage, I can empathize and understand that too.
But when you write about what "straight spouses want", you cross into the general realm. From that position you are telling me what "true happiness" means. Actually you're not describing "happiness" in any detail, but just using it as an abstract concept, that whatever it is, is surely something that by definition cannot be achieved in a MOM.
Well, I dare to differ. But next to that, taking into account your choice of words, it's not far fetched to view your stance as dogmatic and condescending. 

You obviously don't like that description. But if you want to counter that, you'll need more than a cat and a dress style.
Why won't you describe then what "a straight person needs" means to you, not in abstract but concrete terms. 
Maybe also how you compare that to what I write about our marriage relation. For given your reactions I assume you've your reasons to assert why our interpretation/implementation is lacking.
So lets call a spade a spade will you? In Dutch we say "Met de billen bloot". (literaly: "with the buttocks exposed").

For contradictionary and evasive statements or political correctness isn't my cup of tea. No beating about the bush, be concrete and to the point, explaining your thoughts in as much detail as is necessary. One shouldn't say "yes and no" at the same time. Only then a discussion can be become useful and lead somewhere.


Wooden shoes, tulips and we have windmills.

Dutchman.

 

July 22, 2022 8:08 pm  #80


Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

You know what, Dutchman - I doubt you wear wooden shoes.  Again with the personal defamation.  Do you think I couldn't do the same to you?  I'm just being polite you know.  

There is nothing contradictory in what I said.  Words frequently have subtle shifts in meaning - to understand another person's statement requires an honest effort to do so.

Funnily enough, I do think I understand why you find my statements offensive.  I believe you feel like they are aspersions on all you hold sacrosanct, and so you defend against them.

Perhaps one thing we can all agree on is we are all consequences of what has come before and we create consequences in our turn.  Put biologically I have just said we all have parents and create children in turn.  Though of course I am giving a lot wider meaning in my statement.

I say this as preface to my feeling that we might instinctively be wanting something that isn't necessarily so easy to find nowadays.  I have a kitten he is amazing at avoiding hurting himself but glass?  instinct does not serve him, he barrelled right into a pane of glass the other day.  Same with my previous cat, she had to learn about glass the hard way too.

There is nothing contradictory about congratulating you and Sam on achieving a state of relationship which you both feel happy about while maintaining a straight needs another straight for the happiness we instinctively seek.  Perhaps it could even be seen as evidence of a lack of dogmatism in me.  Possibly of me being supportive!

I am holding you to account for ignoring my statement about you calling me a pharisee in black robes and the machine gun comment but I will admit I am entertained by the Dutch version of call a spade a spade. so I will forget about it.  but please no more personal attacks.

My feeling is we can consider this conversation as having been fruitful but only going to go round in circles if we continue.  Prove me wrong if you like but I think you'll find you just want to heap more insult on me.

So, wishing you all the best, Dutchman, over and out, Lily.



 

 

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