okay so butch can mean masculine looking but in the terms I used it, it simply means the dominant one in that dynamic.  femme is the submissive type.  Not all dominant lesbians look butch, far from it.  some are strikingly beautiful.

I don't think it's fair to say the man has been attracted to a more masculine woman.  

Did you know you were marrying a lesbian?  The reasons people stay in MOMs are things like finances and children and not about wanting the mixed orientation sex life.

But there are other deeper aspects aren't there.  One of them is still loving your wife.  

I follow what you are saying, Dutchman, but we seem to disagree about the fundamental nature of orientation, it's visceral - gets you in the guts.

Hi Sam,

You know what?  reading your post reminds me of that saying where when you point the finger you have three fingers pointing back at yourself.

I'm not questioning your accounting of your relations!

It strikes me that the relational dynamic of top and bottom has a big impact on how MOMs play out.  I think it helps people understand what is happening in their own relationship to factor it in and yet it is just about as shrouded in the fog of denial as orientation is.  I then went on to say it creates profound emotions.  I'm entirely respectful of it!

I finished by saying personally I would not want to engage that way when the orientation isn't also compatible.  It is an instinctive sense of it not being a good idea that makes me feel that way.  It is more, for me personally, the way my gut feels about it, it's a health issue.  

However, I am not about to point the finger at what anybody does, life is not just what our instincts guide us towards, it is situational.  and we are all in this together.  

Thank you for acknowledging you do not know what it is like to be straight - it's the same for us we don't know what it's like to be gay.  Tho yes, as we get older and learn more I think we do become a lot more understanding.  I also recognise sexual orientation is only one factor in what makes a person who they are.  

Last edited by lily (June 20, 2022 6:14 pm)

I am sorry you had to wait for my response Lily…
but first of all, given your reaction, I think that you don't fully understand me. I think we're at least both not understanding each other.
Which of the three fingers should I recognize pointing at myself???
May be you didn’t notice that my previous post was about the ongoing conversation and NOT just about your post.  
 
Dutchman and I testify to our course in our marriage which is a MOM, but observe and recognize that there are certain thoughts that stubbornly, again and again arise as soon as we want to make a positive sound.
 
I did not go into the discussion you had with Dutchman about the how, what and why's of a top bottom, butch femme lesbian, and whatever.
Which I, as an adult married woman, don’t recognize nor identify with at all.
But I find it actually worse, that Dutchman has to defend our marriage and relationship in that regard, prove the contrary in order to tell a positive story while he is saying from the beginning that this is not the case for us... Strange...isn't it?
However, what I did feel while reading your posts in the conversation was as worrying and undermining.
So my question to you is: What is the relevance of your remarks about top-bottom-butch-femme in this  current topic? Why bring that up as some reasonable argument, when the picture we're giving over and over again is completely different.
Is it suggesting some "red flag" where there isn't one?
 
To elaborate some more on pointing the finger, yes I did point a finger…Though not directly at you, but more in general in this section and specifically in light of the recent conversation in the thread. We regularly encounter reactions that try to minimize our story and view. Demeaning choice of words that suggest our story implausible, as someone put it “the straight spouse needs facts, not fairytales”.
 
As if the only acceptable approach on Our Path should be:
- lets not tell it actually can be different also.
- Let's stick to a heartache that will never heal.
- Let's stick to “nothing can ever change”.
- Lets stick to a broad general way of thinking and nothing else.
- Lets stick to just the hurt, sad and deprived of own dignity. And dwell in a long bottomless never-ending story.
 
As if this is basically what the MOM section would be for…
If that would be the case then the “strategies for MOM's” section should be named: “Strategies to cope because there is no way out”. Because that might be a better description then, while “Strategies for MOMs” really suggests something else…. for (new) people who come here and have hope there actually are possible encouraging ways through this turmoil.
 
Shouldn't it ALSO be an option to tell people a different side?
Some say “ this is a straight spouse network!!"
Yes! It very much is…!! But “Strategies for MOM's”, especially towards a successful MOM, includes always, and should by all levels and labels, concerns two people. So even though the not-straight spouse isn’t posting directly, their choices and stances are as important as the straight spouse’s.
 

I'm not questioning your accounting of your relations!

I am glad you don’t. But I hope you do understand that some statements carry an impression which are not very constructive, so why bring them into a conversation, what’s the point of it? What are you trying to achieve with it other then casting doubt?
 
I am using this quote (like I mentioned in the first paragraph I absolutely do not want to go in to the subject matter itself…) as an example: "it strikes me that the relational dynamic of top and bottom has a big impact on how MOM's play out."(end quote), making such a statement I find a bit questionable, because : Where did you get the reason you had to mention this in the first place and as if this has bearing on every MOM.
What does it has to do with the subject at hand, where is the relevance to our story or a successful MOM?
It implicates or is suggesting something underneath ….without saying it. Bringing doubt to the (new) reader. Why is that? Keep in mind posts were in fact to start thinking about a “first aid kid” or “how to guide”.  
 

“I would not engage that way when the orientation is not compatible”

Though I understand, from what you wrote and your situation your gut would not engage, but what if that situation would have been completely different? No gaslighting, no narcistic behavior, but simply looking out for one another, loving each other. Still difficulties to overcome? Sure! But… wouldn’t such years have given an other gut feeling?
Besides that it gives no base to imply that to be a gut fact for every MOM. Where did you get the impression that our relationship is not compatible? After all…most of my responses and what you read from Dutchman most surely give a very different view. So what do you think we are precisely talking about?
My gut would respond quite the opposite if I would have heard a story like ours twenty years ago…and it would make me curious to know every detail that would have helped in the situation.
I don't think that has changed over the years for many others…:searching for a way through the troubles instead of a direct door out or barring a burden for many years.
 

“Thank you for acknowledging you do not know what it is to be straight – it's the same for us we don't know what it's like to be gay”.

When I stated this in my post, I was revering to a time long ago, before I even knew I was gay. I think I have a clear picture of it now. As I do also know my feelings stemming from my sexual orientation for woman. I can distinct them and differentiate probably more than many many others today.
The way you take this sentence out of it's original context minimizes it to something I did not say. “Did not know” is entirely different to “do not know”. However, you stick that to me as clarification about me that fits your line of thought. That's not fair, is it…?
Precisely why I felt the need to write my post in the first place.
 
You say you don't know what it is to be gay. I don't mind that and is even understandable. I do however mind that you seemingly make the evaluation that if you don't know, then I, as "a lesbian", can not know what straight is either, and that is a wrong assumption. I bet, you do not know what some woman living a few blocks down the road, exactly feels and experiences about her sexuality… straight as she might be. And do you for example comprehend what is to be a straight man and how he feels?
Therefore sexual orientation is not the basic level to know what a woman, even a straight woman, should feel and live by. Thank God for that. The word “straight” does have a revealing notion…doesn’t it? For it not only means not to be gay but also true-hearted, open, honest, and so on…
You should look it up…
And I think this concerns especially my spouse. That has only so much to do with orientation but far more with who I want to be in the core of being as a person, as a woman, as a wife.
I do very well know and feel what I am and mean to my spouse right in my gut and emotional passioned being. I do know what it is to be a woman, to be myself, to give my self, to have a deep inner connection with my spouse, sexually wanting and longing for him, feel him, cherish and nurture that desire as he does mine!
 
Sam

"lily" wrote:

...but this is not the happiness inherently the straight spouse seeks

Well, this is an odd and stout statement to make.
For I'm straight, and the marriage I'm in is definitly what I seek, and find happyness in, and more!

However, this was certainly not the case when my wife disclosed 17 years ago. Back than things weren't what I wanted or hoped for, and I felt unhappy, sometimes desparate and considering divorce.
But our situation wasn't frozen in that time frame. We fought and strugled our way out of it. That's what we're writing about, for a MOM will indeed be a disaster if both aren't willing and committed to go that path towwards eachother.

For some reason, you are frozen in your evaluation of what we tell about our way through it. You aren't religious you say, but you're certainly dogmatic. Your stance, feels no different to me than a traditional conservative Pharisee that condemns everything to hell and damnation, if it's not in line with the "one true religion" they've constructed and prescribing upon the rest of humanity.
I wouldn't care and ignore it, if it only impacted those relations that aren't loving, committed and/or both aren't willing to find a way out of the troubles. But you wield your opinion like a machine gun.

But note: There is a very different and distinct group of people, who do want a honest and loving relation, despite the sexual orientation mismatch that revealed itself. They are willing to put in the effort to work towards eachother, even if it's through hardship. Doing so they touch the meaning of Real Love, and can actually be finding it. For those the "Pharisee in black robes" has nothing to offer and will only be harmfull. 

What about those people "you don't understand", what they are doing, and where they ended up with.
They:
Love each other.
Trust each other.
Are committed to each other.
Have sexual pleasure being with each other (giving and taking)
Fullfilment and acknowledement being who you are as man and woman.
Are attracted to each other.
Communicate openly and honestly.
Celebrate life with each other.
...I could extend the list of where our marriage has come to.

Yep, not all was in place when we started, but the important thing is what it became! It doesn't has to be frozen in a situation.
If we both would have been straight, we had to learn all these things too. Chances are we missed out on it. For many aspects don't come with just being "straight and all's well".
If there's a fairytale going arround on SSN, that would be that being straight is the answer to everything and happy marriage is guaranteed.
No way, it's about individual persons, having a certain character, making their personal decisions and choices.

Lily,

in one phrase you state:
- no straight spouse can be happy in a MOM
- affirm that I/we achieved a happy MOM
- this is not real happiness for any straight spouse

This is a contradiction. 
If you state that no straight spouse is really happy in a MOM, that obviously includes me.
But if you affirm that I'm happy in my MOM, that contradicts your other statements.

Sorry, but you can't have it both ways!
 
Maybe you like to think that you're not attacking or criticizing, but by putting it in that contradicting choice of words, you certainly are. Moreover, this is not incidental, but rather a pattern in many of your writings.


If you yourself wouldn't feel happy in any form of MOM, because of your personal feelings, that's okay. Knowing your personal experience in your life and former marriage, I can empathize and understand that too.
But when you write about what "straight spouses want", you cross into the general realm. From that position you are telling me what "true happiness" means. Actually you're not describing "happiness" in any detail, but just using it as an abstract concept, that whatever it is, is surely something that by definition cannot be achieved in a MOM.
Well, I dare to differ. But next to that, taking into account your choice of words, it's not far fetched to view your stance as dogmatic and condescending. 

You obviously don't like that description. But if you want to counter that, you'll need more than a cat and a dress style.
Why won't you describe then what "a straight person needs" means to you, not in abstract but concrete terms. 
Maybe also how you compare that to what I write about our marriage relation. For given your reactions I assume you've your reasons to assert why our interpretation/implementation is lacking.
So lets call a spade a spade will you? In Dutch we say "Met de billen bloot". (literaly: "with the buttocks exposed").

For contradictionary and evasive statements or political correctness isn't my cup of tea. No beating about the bush, be concrete and to the point, explaining your thoughts in as much detail as is necessary. One shouldn't say "yes and no" at the same time. Only then a discussion can be become useful and lead somewhere.


Wooden shoes, tulips and we have windmills.

Dutchman.