Hello sean, I posted on the is he or she gay forum and got some definitive feedback that my husband is gay. Which raises a few questions in my head.

If you were still in denial or wanted to stay closeted, if you had the opportunity to sleep in the same bed with a male friend while traveling, would you tell your wife? My husband shares rooms with friends (while traveling or business trips) when there are 'no extra rooms available' as an excuse. Which is odd but he does go to some pretty messed up extremely poor countries so it is possible.  But he tells me on his return. If he was on the down low, I would presume he would lie or hide it....
Also, did you drown your wife with lavish gifts whether from guilt, wanting to show affection or purely habitual? Even though you live like roommates and have little emotional connection and no physical connection?

Thank you Sean. Really appreciate your comments. Am writing this in my room, discreetly in haste. Please excuse the typos and disorganized sentences. Also English is not my mother tongue.

I will get tested for STDs. My husband is a odd germ freak and gets blood tests every year, also checks for stds but his reasons are 'the amount of shit you can contract in public toilets and unclean glasses at restaurants and doorknobs'. I did find it weird he would test for stds when we had no sexual activity.
Him sharing a bed with a man raised my eyebrows but he also continued to sleep at his ex girlfriends place when he was in Paris too. Being economical was his excuse. Though she had an extra bedroom.. so my suspicion never had grounds when he was sleeping at female friends as well.
The gifts have not been persistant. He was giving me plenty before marriage. After the wedding, nothing, no sort of a push present and barely a gift for birthdays once in a while until last year. Last winter(my birthday is close to Christmas) he offered me a significant present. With multiple lockdowns and travel ristrictions I havent seen my family for over a year and was feeling pretty down, maybe he wanted to cheer me up this way. Now I can see it as a coveruo.And this year, after confrontation he got me another thing that goes beyond his means currently. It seemed he was trying to make up for his fuckup. But after reading your comment, it is to keep me around.
Lovebombing stage certainly happened in a subtle way. But he had raging anger for completly different reasons shortly after confrontation. He has become slightly distant again since I came back from my trip. He does cuddle me when there are homosexual scenes on tv (very often these days) as I cannot bare to look at the screen, turn my head and shed tears in silence. He continues to watch without any problem though.

Oh how I wish this was all a nightmare. We go to church sometimes and I ask him after mass if he enjoyed the mass,if he thinks god is watching him, if he feels he has sinned or has guilt, or wants forgiveness. His answer is god is everywhere and god loves him no matter what. Whatever fault and flaws he has, god will forgive. So he must have no shame or self loath nor any problem deceiving me for all these years.

Will try to listen to the podcast. I am so numb all over. Gaslighting is a term I discovered since online research on this topic. I am so deeply engaged into his game of deception. There seems to be no way out and actually wish I never found out. Stockholm syndrome maybe? Going to look into divorce in private. Don't want to be manipulated further. Hope you can share a few things your ex wife did that you think were admirable before or after separation so I can do the same for the sake of my son. Cannot lose a husband and traumatize my son at such an important age which could lead to further damage.

Sean wrote:

Thank you for posting Lostintranslation, although I'm very sorry that you've found yourself here. When reading my comments, please keep in mind that I'm not a mental health professional. Now in response to you post/questions: 

1. Hello sean, I posted on the is he or she gay forum and got some definitive feedback that my husband is gay. Which raises a few questions in my head.

I've taken the liberty of reading your first post and just wanted to highlight the following. 

2. Grindr: I looked up what Grindr was and to my shock it is what it is. Husband woke up later and behaved as if everything was fine. I was already in a state of shock but didn't want him to know we found out. Kept on with my day and put on a straight face. Kept an eye on his behavior for a few more weeks. He would hide his phone when I suddenly enter the room, change the app to something else. I took my time and started snooping while he was in the shower or cleaning. I found many messages, all slightly different in context. Wanting blowjobs, wanting to hook up, asking for threesomes with another man he chatted with, male prostitutes, that he is bi, that he is younger, asking for explicit details of other men having sex etc. But nothing indicating he ever met anyone, Since covid he works fully from home and never goes out without me so I believe he never actually had an encounter. This went on for another month. Husband seemed to notice I was nervous and agitated but had no clue what I discovered. One day, my son and I had to go out on our own for an hour or so. I immeditately checked his app when I had the chance. He messaged some of the men for a quickie in his car at 4pm which was when we were to be away. 

Before reviewing this passage, I urge you to get tested for STDs/STIs and to only practice safe sex with your husband. That means abstinence and/or only having sex with condoms. I'll explain why below. Mostly I want to thank you for having the courage to share your experience here. For every straight spouse who posts here, I reckon there are dozens or perhaps even hundreds of women following your journeys. I also want to write that I understand how much straight spouses want to stay married, want their husbands to be straight, and want to believe that no cheating has occurred. In my opinion, your husband is clearly not straight and has been cheating on you with men...likely for years. Sorry if that stings. You wrote "nothing indicating he ever met anyone..." which is a common minimization. (He probably said this to you or, worse, made you feel like it was your idea.) Take it from an expert, men like me use Grindr for the sole purpose of having sex with other men. It's a sex app for men who want sex with men. Period. If during a one-hour window, your husband quickly arranged a hook up in his car, that suggests a level of experience with the app that goes far beyond "curiosity." So he's definitely had sex with other men and likely continues to do so. If he hasn't been having sex with other men, fine. He can easily prove it by taking an STD/STI test, with you there to verify the results. If he panics when you suggest such a test, that confirms he's doing more than just chatting on Grindr. Now on to your post/questions. 

3. If you were still in denial or wanted to stay closeted, if you had the opportunity to sleep in the same bed with a male friend while traveling, would you tell your wife?

No. But your husband isn't really in denial, nor closeted anymore. He's moved on to a phase where he's trying to brainwash you into normalizing why he's sleeping with men. Get ready for the "I was abused as a child which is why I like d*ck" excuse. If you want to get off his crazy-go-round logic, just use a "woman" in this situation. "If you have the opportunity to sleep in the same bed with a female friend while traveling...." No wife would let her husband sleep with another woman on a business trip. Chump Lady calls this "mindf*ckery." He's sleeping with men on these trips because he wants to. Period. 

4. My husband shares rooms with friends (while traveling or business trips) when there are 'no extra rooms available' as an excuse.

Bullsh*t. Ok so let's recap the facts here. Your husband... 

- Refused to have sex with you for almost 13 years 
- Uses Grindr, a gay hook up/sex app
- Exchanges d*ck pics with other men via Grindr
- Shares hotel beds with men while away from home

One tool straight spouses can use to work through their shock/denail is to imagine if a female friend, sister, or aunt came to you with the same narrative. Let's call this man Jim and your friend's name is Susan. Susan comes to you and says, "Jim and I..." 

- Haven't had sex in almost 13 years 
- Jim uses Grindr, a gay hook up app
- Jim has exchanged d*ck pics with other men via Grindr
- Jim travels a lot for work and shares hotel beds with other men on these trips

Is Jim gay? Another tool to evaluate whether this acceptable, is to change this to a heterosexual narrative like this: 

- Refused to have sex with his wife for almost 13 years 
- Uses Tinder, a dating app, to meet women 
- Exchanges d*ck pics with women via Tinder
- Shares hotel beds with women while away from home

Is any of this normal/acceptable? Let me know your thoughts. 

5. Which is odd but he does go to some pretty messed up extremely poor countries so it is possible. 

He's lying to you and now you're lying to yourself. (Please see "gaslighting" below.) Even poor countries have hotels with single/twin beds and separate rooms. He's choosing to sleep with men in hotel rooms because he wants to, not because he has to. He's manipulating you and you're now parroting his bullsh*t excuses. 

6. But he tells me on his return. If he was on the down low, I would presume he would lie or hide it....

Splitting hairs. He's sleeping with men....that's the issue. This is called "gaslighting" which is distorting another person's truth/reality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting. In my world, when men sleep with men repeatedly, they're gay. Men who use Grindr are gay. Men who arrange hook ups in their cars are gay. Gay men don't enjoy sex with women so they avoid sex with women as he did with you for 13 years. So in your husband's distorted reality, every hotel on Earth forces men to share rooms and sleep in the same bed together? That's some straight up bullsh*t.  

7. Also, did you drown your wife with lavish gifts whether from guilt, wanting to show affection or purely habitual? Even though you live like roommates and have little emotional connection and no physical connection?

Yes. This is something I discussed during a recent podcast: S4 Ep 3: A “Narcissist in Recovery” Gets Real - OurPath. Skip to 00:54:09 if you want to listen to the part about gifts/gift giving as manipulations. 

00:00:22 Introductions
00:04:09 My coming out story
00:11:09 Straight wives and sexless marriages
00:17:30 Common red flags (or “pink flags”) with non-straight husbands
00:22:46 Narcissism in gay/straight relationships
00:27:20 Common patterns in gay/straight relationships
00:34:30 Why doesn’t he just say “I’m gay”?
00:36:50 Do questioning/gay-in-denial husbands care about their straight spouses?
00:44:33 Answering the question: “Is my husband gay?”
00:53:13 Closeted men don’t want love, they want approval/recognition
00:54:09 Closeted husbands giving gifts to wives
00:54:56 Tricks closeted men use to distract their wives
01:03:07 Closeted husbands claiming “sexual abuse made me gay”
01:15:55 Signs your questioning/gay-in-denial husband is cheating
01:20:54 Why couples counselling rarely works in gay/straight relationships
01:25:30 When straight wives cheat
01:31:50 Why didn’t my questioning/gay husband let me go?
01:33:40 Why is my straight ex-wife so angry?
01:39:40 Straight spouse: where’s my f*cking pride parade?
01:42:11 My current relationship with ex-wife 

Again I'm very sorry that your husband has put you through all of this. In my opinion, your husband is as gay as a rainbow and I'd recommend you listen to the above and continue exchanging with fellow straight spouses for support. I did many of the same things he did so the podcast may be relevant to your situation. I'd also suggest that you: 

- Focus on your mental health and the mental health of your son, perhaps by seeking out counselling. 
- Read up on narcissism and co-dependency because your husband sounds like a black-belt narcissist.
- Get tested for STDs/STIs and only practice safe sex. 
- If he hasn't already done so, your husband will likely try to initiate sex with you to prove that he's straight (it's called a "honeymoon phase" and normally lasts just a few months). If he does, use condoms. 
- Be prepared for your husband to bring up a sexual abuse history to explain away his attraction to men. 
- Read this website's "First Aid Kit" and reach out to the "Our Path" hotline for help. 

Thank you again for posting and please feel free to comment and/or challenge anything I've shared above. Be well! 

Thank you. Appreciate your comment. Any opinion is of great value and helps.
My son will surely benefit from seeing a physcologist. He seems to be in shock and confused about everything. I am squeemish about physologists or shrinks in general as they tend to prescribe heavy medication and worsen the problems with time but I don't think anything could possibly go worse. Hope I can find someone as professional and competant as your nieces.

I am seeing the patterns of my husbands manipulation. Easier to detect since reading the posts here. You are absolutely right. He does get nitpicky on everything to make me feel bad and start a fight just to prove he is always right. I am tired and fed up of bowing down to him. Oven temperature wrong, ice tray not full, laundry temperature too high, storage is wrong, how I shut the door, how I water the plants, even to the pencils I buy for my son, my face creams, my outfits, my own haircut.. I see it now. Who the fuck cares if I put the mustard in the fridge or wear white socks? I have kept our home perfectly for 2decades, cooked every meal from scratch, looked nice everyday wanting to be noticed without success. I am done apologizing and blaming myself for nothing.
I am grateful for the kind and harsh replies on my post. It has been a real eye opener.

MJM017 wrote:

Hello lostintranslation and Sean,

I don't mean to hijack your thread.

LIT, your son may benefit seeing a child psychologist.  One helped my niece who had great difficulty with her parents divorce at age nine. She isolated herself from friends and pulled out her hair (  Trichotillomania).  She's a well-adjusted adult now who's an attorney and recently had a baby girl.

Words to the wise, it may be prudent to mentally distance yourself from your husband.  My late GIDXH baited me into arguments. It was meant to upset and control me into accepting the status quo.  Save your mental strength for improving your and your son's life. You both deserve so much more.

Take care!
Maria

I just wanted to say, I found my exit plan. It was so much easier than I dreaded. I have my support ready and waiting on the other side of the planet. Thank you for opening my eyes and pursueing me to run not walk. It was an agonizing few months suffering alone but was well worth coming here. Son finding Grindr was the best thing that happened in 2020 at the end of the day.
I hope my husband can one day see the pain and hurt he caused me and our son. Unfortunately he appears to love himself too much to ever doubt his actions. He said he has no regrets nor shame for anything he has done for his entire life. Hope he can come to the light and be a better person like you.
Keep up the good work Sean, I admire you for putting so much time and care to help women like me.

Sean wrote:

Thank you for posting everyone. In reply: 

1. MJM wrote: A watchful eye and careful planning, even if reaching your goal  takes longer than you want, will serve you & ds well!

Well said! 

2. LIT wrote: I am seeing the patterns of my husbands manipulation. ​Easier to detect since reading the posts here.

Well done! This is a HUGE step forward so you should be proud of yourself.  

3. Easier to detect since reading the posts here. You are absolutely right. He does get nitpicky on everything to make me feel bad and start a fight just to prove he is always right. I am tired and fed up of bowing down to him. Oven temperature wrong, ice tray not full, laundry temperature too high, storage is wrong, how I shut the door, how I water the plants, even to the pencils I buy for my son, my face creams, my outfits, my own haircut.. I see it now.

I did the same thing with a simple goal: to keep my (then) wife so distracted that she couldn't focus on my homosexuality, porn use, and cheating. For me personally, I don't think I was evil. I was just very practiced at distracting from my closeted sexuality because I'd been doing it since I was 5 years old. 

4. Who the fuck cares if I put the mustard in the fridge or wear white socks? I have kept our home perfectly for 2decades, cooked every meal from scratch, looked nice everyday wanting to be noticed without success.

What an *sshole. I'm sorry he put you through this. 

5. I am done apologizing and blaming myself for nothing.

Powerful! If you believe yourself to be a people-pleaser/co-dependent, there are two things that really helped me  rebuild my own self esteem: reading a book entitled "Co-Dependent No More" by Melody Beattie. The audio book version is also excellent and easy to listen to with earbuds while doing everyday chores. I also joined coda.org for a time, which is a free 12-step association for co-dependents. Joining a free, anonymous, and practical group with a kind/caring sponsor was a life saver.    

6. I am grateful for the kind and harsh replies on my post. It has been a real eye opener.

I apologize if I pushed to hard or if any of my replies were too blunt. But beware: closeted/gay-in-denial husbands are incredibly sensitive to other's feelings. He will likely feel a shift and, as your confidence grows, he will likely increase the emotional abuse. So I would be prepared for him to claim "I was abused as a child" to explain away why he's having sex with men. He might also start making noises that he's suicidal. Whether or not any of this is true, these are often the final attempts by a closeted husband to re-assert control over his wife and the relationship. So I'd be prepared for his next "big move." I'd also recommend you discreetly start building a dossier of evidence that he is gay and/or cheating. From what you have described in previous posts, this might prove useful later on if/when you decide to separate/divorce. Just a suggestion and hope that doesn't scare you. 

As always, feel free to post/reply as often as you like. Be well! 

Hi Sean,

I am just joining this thread. I listened to a podcast on "Our Voices" recently and your story seems similar to the man that spoke. 
A few things: My former husband came out to me through a letter. He stated he felt an attraction towards men since he was a little boy. He first blamed his Dad but retracted that. His "Dad" was not his birth father or active in his life. He was exceptionally close to his mother and grandmother, as I always felt I was number 3 in his world. 

My former husband traveled for his job every week. He told me he used the Grinder app to meet men at his hotel and had sexual relations with those men. He told me he had an "addiction" towards men, he wasn't gay; he was bi. However, he didn't show affection towards me, never wanting to have sex with me.

Our divorce has been finalized (2 months ago) as I am almost a year out from when he told me. Throughout the whole divorce process, he became this monster that had no respect for me. If I remember correctly from your podcast, you did this to your former wife. Why? I was his number one cheerleader for years and truly loved him with my every being. He took vacations and spent a lot of "his money." He completely acted out into this human I didn't even know. 

Someone very close to me recently wrote a letter to both of his grandparents telling them the "real" truth. Up until this point, his mother was the only one that knew he was gay and acted upon those feelings. He called and texted me about the letters as I will not respond. Others around me use the narcissist term, and it makes me cringe thinking my former spouse is of sort. 

Did you come out to everyone? Did people figure it out? I feel I am in a rock and a hard place to tell the real story to my friends. What kind of former spouse do it make me to tell his biggest life secret? 

I appreciate all of your thoughts/suggestions!