MJM-

I wanted to thank you for your thoughtful reply on 11/14. I am wishing you strength and the best possible outcome you can have in your situation.

Thanks for sharing everyone. If any straight spouses have questions for a gay ex-husband, please post them here. Here again is a link to my recent SSN/OurPath interview S4 Ep 3: A “Narcissist in Recovery” Gets Real - OurPath. The interview is incredibly long so I've made an index of the questions/topics discussed. 

00:00:22 Introductions
00:04:09 My coming out story
00:11:09 Straight wives and sexless marriages
00:17:30 Common red flags (or “pink flags”) with non-straight husbands
00:22:46 Narcissism in gay/straight relationships
00:27:20 Common patterns in gay/straight relationships
00:34:30 Why doesn’t he just say “I’m gay”?
00:36:50 Do questioning/gay-in-denial husbands care about their straight spouses?
00:44:33 Answering the question: “Is my husband gay?”
00:53:13 Closeted men don’t want love, they want approval/recognition
00:54:56 Tricks closeted men use to distract their wives
01:03:07 Closeted husbands claiming “sexual abuse made me gay”
01:15:55 Signs your questioning/gay-in-denial husband is cheating
01:20:54 Why couples counselling rarely works in gay/straight relationships
01:25:30 When straight wives cheat
01:31:50 Why didn’t my questioning/gay husband let me go?
01:33:40 Why is my straight ex-wife so angry?
01:39:40 Straight spouse: where’s my f*cking pride parade?
01:42:11 My current relationship with ex-wife

Shout out to Kristin K. for being such a great interviewer. If any straight wives have questions for a gay ex-husband, feel free to post them here. Be well! 

Thank you for posting Elle and please excuse this late response as I've just seen your post. Before reading my detailed comments, please keep in mind that I'm not a mental health professional. I'm simply sharing my opinions/experience. So now in reply: 

1. I am wondering if you could share your thoughts on my situation. For a while, I thought that my partner was having an affair with his ex. All messages were deleted out of his phone, his call logs, sent emails, he became very possessive of his phone...and other strange behaviors. 

This is common among gay/questioning husbands married to women. It was also my personal experience as I was very secretive with my own technology. 

2. One day I saw pictures of his ass on his phone, and I knew that was not a picture you would send to a woman. Earlier this year, I discovered he had a fake email account, and was on a down low site of men seeking men. He never posted any ads, but he did answer ads of other men. The ones I saw were replies to bi curious men or men looking for "clean discreet fun".

This must have been both shocking and traumatizing. I'm so sorry you had to go through this. Please see this forum's First Aid Kit or reach out to Our Path/SSN hotline for support. I recommend you reach out to straight wives who have been through similar trauma. 

3. I am an idiot for not looking at everything, to see how far he was going, were there meetups, I couldn't bring myself to see more. I was in shock at what I saw: he had photos, videos, and sex chats with these men. I got the courage to confront him...

First and foremost, he's the idiot - not you. And I applaud you for confronting him. That took a lot of courage. 

4. ...and told him that he owed me an explanation.

F*cking right he owed you an explanation! 

5. At first, he first denied it, said he would do this to make fun of them...

Of course. 

6. Then he admitted to having a problem and "being sick" and said that it isn't for the reasons I think it is. He was raped by his stepfather from age 4 to 13 or so, and that when he feels he wants to kill himself, he goes to these sites and does these chats, and it is his way to relive the trauma, and this time to be in control.

So he didn't do anything, then he did, and how he's basically saying, "I love d*ck because I was abused and only d*ck can keep me from committing suicide." That's some straight up bullsh*t. I have a name for men who like men's penises: gay. Something tells me he isn't sharing his abuse stories with his sex friends. He's lying. 

7. He said he never met with any of the guys there, and that he never had any sexual attraction to men and that he has never had sex with a man nor has he ever dated one.

More lies. 

8. He said that would be much better if he was because at least he would be normal and healthy, and that his reasons were far from it. He begged me not to tell anyone and told me if I did, that he would kill himself.

There it is: out me and I'll kill myself. Please listen to this: 

S4 Ep 3: A “Narcissist in Recovery” Gets Real - OurPath

then skip to here: 01:03:07 Closeted husbands claiming “sexual abuse made me gay”.

9. He said he can not live with the pain of what happened to him...

Well clearly he can because he only just told you about the alleged abuse. 

10. ...and the pain of facing what he did on those sites and of destroying our relationship. He told me he was in therapy, and the dr told him that he might have a multiple personality or fractured personality from the trauma, and that he feels it isn't him doing this.

The message: none of this is my fault. Questions: has he accepted any blame? and has he even apologised to you and/or thought about your feelings? 

11. He promised to go to therapy, to see a specialist that deals with childhood trauma and sexual abuse of this nature, and to go to couples therapy, but that has not happened. 

Pay attention to actions, rather than words. Refusing to go to therapy means two things: first, I made this all up and am afraid a professional will call me out on it; or second, I really don't want to change. 

12. In May, I found out that there was an much older man that he was chatting with, and I believe going to make visits to. I also found some numbers saved in his phone with no name. I looked them up and they are men, that I am guessing he met on these sites. They are either gay or "straight" married men, and recently I found out he has a secret number on Skype.

This extensive virtual rolodex seems to blow apart his "never met with any men" bullsh*t when you first confronted him. 

13. I feel I have been an idiot and am getting played.

Trust your instinct. Again, he's the idiot...not you. 

14. He denies there is any attraction, and that it is his being sick and needing to have control over the trauma as a child.

Funny how golf or crossfit never seems to be enough for these closeted husbands. So if I'm reading this chronology correctly, he's saying: I never did this; ok I did this virtually but never met anyone; I'M THE VICTIM and love d*ck because I was abused; ok I did meet with some of these guys but it's trauma re-enactment; and I'm not going to therapy. Fair summary? 

15. I believe him about the abuse...

I don't. Based on his history, he's lied about EVERYTHING so he could very easily have made up this "I was abused" story. Listen to this: 

S4 Ep 3: A “Narcissist in Recovery” Gets Real - OurPath

then skip to here: 01:03:07 Closeted husbands claiming “sexual abuse made me gay”.

16. but I don't know what to think on the matter of his sexuality, it seems clear that he is attracted to men and is in denial of it.

100% agree! 

17. I am way over my head, I really love him so much and want to help him, but there are so many things I have doubts about and don't think I will ever know the truth about it.

I love your honesty here but think you should reconsider your definitions of "love" and "marriage." Please go to the Our Path/SSN "First Aid Kit" and reach out to their hotline for help. I'd also urge you to speak with other women who have been down this path. 

18. I think if he were to question or to face it, this would be devastating for him, as he has built his life on being a macho and straight man, and to say that perhaps for whatever reason, he has this attraction, would be the end of this character he has worn for his entire life.

Please think about yourself as well. This is also devastating for you. You deserve more than this dishonest and manipulative man. Several suggestions: get tested immediately for STIs/STDs; questioning husbands often attempt sex with their wives to prove they are still straight (it's called a 'honeymoon' phase) and if he does, please use condoms; and I hope you're in therapy with a good counsellor.   

19. Also, I know you don't go from an "addition" to zero. So to say it would stop, was just unrealistic. Somethings don't finish right away. I know this is outside of me, but I have just been collateral damage from his denial of things. Perhaps...Any thoughts on this? Thank you for your time.

My main thoughts are:

- Focus 100% on yourself, meaning that you can talk to friends, family, and a qualified therapist.
- Please create your own thread here so that fellow members can help. 
- Reach out to Our Path/SSN to get help from wives who have been through similar situations. 
- Your husband isn't going to kill himself, that's just a threat to shut you up, keep you in this toxic relationship, and trap you in his closet. 
- I don't believe his abuse story, for reasons I've outlined in the above podcast. 
- If after all of these lies, abuse, and manipulations, you still feel an overwhelming need to heal/protect him, please explore co-dependency either with coda.org or with a qualified therapist. 

Thank you again for your honesty and please don't hesitate to post again if you have any questions or would like to correct/challenge anything I've posted. 

Thank you for writing QuietOne. I've taken the liberty of reading your original post and hope you don't mind if I comment on the following passages so here goes: 

1.  I also discovered a box of condoms in his bag (none missing)...When he was around 40, he started having problems with ED, likely related to diabetes. These issues worsened until he/we eventually just gave up, and we haven't had sex for 12 years. He told me recently that he no longer has any erections--from the diabetes and from meds he is on for prostate enlargement. I now wonder if at least a part of this could be from him being gay.​

I've highlighted this particular passage because it is such a perfect example of gay/straight relationships and in particular the mindf*ckery (please excuse this term I've borrowed from "Chump Lady") that goes on. By writing "none missing" I can only assume that he highlighted this fact or perhaps that you were clinging to the notion that he hasn't been using these condoms. In my world, no one simply buys condoms just to collect them. We buy condoms to have sex and in order for men to use condoms, they have to get erections. And if he's getting erections, his ED story is bullsh*t. I'm not sharing this to make you feel worse about yourself nor your situation. I simply wanted to highlight how deft some closeted husbands are at manipulating their wives. Gay men buy condoms to have sex with other men. Closeted gay men like me stop having sex with their wives, often in their 40s, for several reasons: first, once we've had real-world sex with another man, this effectively shuts the door on being able to perform with a woman (or a wife); and second, once the closeted husband starts having sex with men, there is a serious risk of giving a wife an STD/STI and that fear effectively kills his ability to perform. Now in response to your post: 

2. My somewhat detailed story is in a different thread, but the bottom line is, after 40 years of marriage, I discovered my husband is gay.

I'm so sorry. I don't know why but every time I read "my husband is gay", my stomach does a turn.

3. I have been trying to understand all of this, reading these threads, reading books, listening to podcasts.

Please don't forget to focus all of this energy on the most important person...you! While I applaud you and the other straight wives who work so very hard to understand their gay/questioning husbands, I lament that you're not focusing all of this love on yourselves...particularly in these circumstances. Sadly, I have yet to find a forum like this in which closeted gay men try to understand their straight wives. Most closeted men I've encountered are doing all their "research" via hook up apps or down at the adult bookstore. I'm not demonising these men, I'm just sharing that gay husbands are almost exclusively self-centred, whereas most straight wives focus all of their love and attention on their cheating husbands.  

4. In a couple of different places I have heard that being gay is more than just a sexual orientation.

100% agree. 

5. For example, David Cotton was interviewed in the Graying Rainbows podcast, and he stated "Being gay is a sexual orientation, but it is not just about the sex."

Correct. There is an excellent book about this very topic: "The Velvet Rage" by Dr. Alan Downs. While things have indeed improved, society is largely heteronormative so being gay is often considered an "anomaly" of sorts. I believe this is why there are still pastors and mental health professionals pushing these tired old tropes: being gay is a choice (it isn't); our environment makes us gay (it doesn't); sexual abuse makes gay men (it doesn't); and gay men can have happy marriages to straight women (nope). I can easily disprove the above in just a few sentences. Too all the heterosexual people reading this, when have you ever heard the following statements: 

- Being straight is a choice and I chose to be straight in [insert date/time/place]
- My environment made me heterosexual 
- Sexual abuse made me straight
- I know so many straight women who have happy and sexually fulfilling marriages to gay men

In my experience, most questioning/closeted husbands follow similar paths: 

- I'm not gay. 
- Yes I watch gay things online but I'm just curious
- I would never do anything gay with another man
- Ok so I did something gay "once" with another man because [insert bullsh*t excuse here]
- Ok now I'm bisexual
- Ok so I've done lots of gay stuff with multiple partners but that's because I was abused
- Ok now I'm gay but my wife and I don't have sex because my wife is [insert bullsh*t excuse/blame shift here]
- Ok now I've met [insert new male partner's name here] and want a divorce

6. David Cotton: "[Being gay] has to do with the way I perceive the world and the way I interact in the world. And it's not necessarily just about sexual orientation. It's just the way I view things." I don't understand what this means. How do gay men view the world differently, aside from sexual orientation? I will appreciate any insight you can offer.

Please keep in mind that I'm not a mental health professional. I'm just sharing my opinions and personal experience. I agree with David Cotton's statement. Being a gay man isn't just about the sex I have with my (male) partner, although for generations the world has obsessed about demonizing sex between men. For me personally, being gay means that I want to share my life with another man and, most importantly, to live among people who accept it. I remember reading an article in a British newspaper saying that sex or the sexual act represents less than 0.001% of the time a couple spends together. As a gay man, I want to share the remaining 99.99% of my time building a life with another man. I reckon this is why most cheating husbands having sex with men use excuses like:

- It was just sex
- It didn't mean anything
- We didn't kiss
- I don't even know the guy's name
- I'd never want to date/marry another man
 
I've used these excuses myself. To answer your question, I believe gay men do view the world and relationships differently. (Similarly, I reckon women see the world very differently than men.) In my limited experience, (out) gay men see the world in blinding technicolor. Sadly this isn't a worldview we often share with straight people, although you can see sparkles of it in gay bars, at pride parades, or in drag shows. Like everyone else, gay men just want to be loved and accepted...for who we are. Gay author Dan Savage shared his first experience as a formerly closeted young man walking into a gay bar as follows: 

When Dan Savage first walked into the Bushes, in Chicago, after six years of intense stress from hiding his homosexuality, the pressure lift was so intense that it made him feel lightheaded. “It was like stepping through an airlock,” he writes. “I’m surprised my ears didn’t pop.”

So how do gay men view the world differently, aside from sexual orientation? For me personally, I see a world in which I love and revere women, but without objectifying/sexualizing them. I see a world in which sex and sexuality are positive, open, and full of possiblities. I see lots of colour, joy, and humour. If you want to really understand how gay men see the world, I'd suggest reaching out to straight women who have almost exclusively gay friends. Or perhaps you should go to a gay dinner party. I fear I haven't really answered your question and if my answers seem fuzzy, I apologize.   

7. This particular thread of yours, Sean, and the interview with Kristin on the OurPath Podcast have been extremely helpful to me. I have read and listened to the podcast multiple times.

That's very kind of you and I'm thrilled to have helped in some small way. Although I ache at the pain I caused my ex-wife and am truly sorry so many other straight spouses find themselves here. I have learned so much from my exchanges with straight spouses over the years so thank you...thank all of you really.  

8. Interestingly, my husband (we are now separated) has also listened to that podcast and has recommended it to a group he started of older gay men in the process of coming out. So your influence is wide! 

I hope your separation/divorce are amicable and that both of you find happiness apart. Be well! 

Last edited by Séan (December 23, 2021 4:51 pm)

Yes, Oilslick, that is absolutely OK. Thanks for checking.