Your podcast compelled me to actually register for the site.  I appreciate the courage it took for you to be so honest.  I still have a question - is the gay community as supportive of this "alternative lifestyle" of  closeted gays marrying straight women as they seem to be.  I ask because my ex had exclusively gay roommates in college and they were his attendants at our wedding.  I always considered them to be friends of mine until I discovered that my ex also was gay.  There is no way they could have been as deceived about his sexuality as I was.  Particularly when his bachelor party was a night of gay bar hopping. I would appreciate some insight into the gay community's views on these types of marriages, understanding fully that not all gay men share the same values. 
Thanks in advance for any insight you could provide. 

Sean, my recollection of "lavendar marriages" involved women who were aware of their husbands' sexuality.  I had a few friends who were in these kinds of marriages.  As much as men were under pressure to be straight, there was also pressure on women to get married.  Today, there's nothing particularly unusual about a woman remaining single into her 30's, 40's and beyond, but at the time it was a win-win situation for two people who might have no particular use for marriage anyhow.

In my own case, it does slightly get to me when people jump ahead of the facts and decide that my husband somehow needed to feign marriage due to social or family pressures. 

I'm not suggesting that you're doing this, but I just want to avoid giving these guys a free pass because blah blah blah victim of homophobic parents blah blah homophobic friends blah blah blah.

It's not true, and it's just as cruel to stigmatize his family as being homophobic as it is to stigmatize me for "making" him cheat.  His parents were both very accepting for their generation -- maybe not perfect, but far more accepting than the parents of many gay men and women who, unlike my X, had the courage to be honest.

My GIDXH worked at a very progressive firm, in a very progressive industry.  His mother's younger brother was a prominent gay activist in the early days in San Francisco, and is buried next to Harvey Milk.  His parents and siblings were always very, very supportive of this uncle.  After the uncle's death, they remained close with his partner.

He had a more disturbing side to the family history: his maternal grandfather apparently had a secret second family (as well as a drinking problem).  Eventually, his grandparents divorced, and the grandmother moved in with my GIDXH's family.  It completely ripped apart the fabric of my MIL's family of origin: of her four brothers, two sided with their father and the other two sided with their mother (as did my MIL).  She has half-siblings she's never even met.  My GIDXH has cousins he's never met, and he's never had any relationship with his own scumbag grandfather.

So it's clear to me that the "secret double life scamming your wife and child" thing is not a one-off occurrence in this little saga, and it sets my teeth on edge when the default narrative is always about how society's homophobia drives men like my X to do desperate things.  

Last edited by walkbymyself (October 5, 2021 12:29 pm)

Thanks for posting/sharing friends. I'm going to respond to your comments and some online questions/comments about my recent podcast: Podcast - OurPath. Please note that I used my real name, Ryan, during the podcast. 

Comment #1 by KWS: ​I'll be honest, I was expecting to be angrier and dislike Ryan much more than I do. His validation of my experience, and the grace he and [interviewer] Kristin Kalbli extended to one another in the episode was fantastic. I applaud Ryan for being willing to speak so honestly. It was much more soul-soothing than I expected.

While I appreciate the positive feedback, I inwardly cringe because of all the terrible things I did to my ex-wife while we were married. I don't believe I deserve kudos for being a "reformed" monster. 

Comment #2 by DW: I’m going to be brutally honest as well. I thought Ryan tried to control much of this interview.

Fair comment. 

I also thought it was highly disturbing that he used analogies like “prized bullfighter” and “concert pianist” regarding his trickery and deceit. (Two comparisons to a center star of the arena being applauded). How about a comparison to Lucifer or Ponzi? No one needs to be cheering the star of the arena when his wife was obviously the wounded bull being stabbed, or the pitiful pianist playing Chopsticks.

Again, fair. 

I’m grateful Ryan did the interview, no applaud, even if I felt he only did so to be the ongoing center of attention and mustered cheers. (I also would not applaud a rapist for saying he is sorry and giving tips on the ways to avoid being raped again). 

I don't disagree. I've often used the term "reformed narcissist" to describe myself but I do admit that I still enjoy being the expert and center of attention. This may explain why I've posted here for so long...and perhaps why I'm posting again today. 

When asked how his ex wife felt, he said you need to ask her. I’m very interested in her story!! And kudos to Kristin for never once letting him gain control of her interview, steering it back to her questions every time, even when the ice of his words triggered tears.

I too am a podcaster, but mostly interview gay men, so I admit that I did steer the conversation. But when listening to this interview again, I want to note that Kristin spoke at length and shared her own story. As for her tears, roughly at the 40-minute mark, I found her reaction very moving.  

Comment #3 Anonymous: I found this very interesting and it underlined much of what I’ve learnt over ten years of hearing straight spouse histories but it made me rather annoyed. Annoyed because Ryan seems to be trying to own our story, give us permission to feel what we feel and curry favour with us, his straight audience.

Valid points. 

I appreciate the additional insight his admissions give but he seems to feel uniquely qualified to speak for both the gay community and the straights who have suffered this. Somehow this affronts me.

Again, valid. I tried, and perhaps failed, to use "I" sentences to share my own experience rather than preach. But I do admit that I sounded rather sanctimonious at times. 

I noticed a mention of loss of control being difficult for the gay partner. I think that’s a key point. We often see very difficult behaviour when they start to feel a loss of control. There’s a huge need to control in many of these relationships.

Agree 100%. The straight spouse is often "punished" or emotionally abused when she rightfully starts to challenge him about cheating, gay porn, and their sexless marriage. 

I’d also love to ask him what he’d say to women who stayed childless with their gay husband, going beyond their child bearing years too - not a pain I suffered personally - but a very real crime against the women who suffered this particular loss because they did want children. It can’t be put right.

My ex-wife and I had children but I can see how painful it would be for a woman to remain childless at a closeted partner's request. 

And now on to the latest posts. 

Walkbymyself wrote: 

Sean, my recollection of "lavendar marriages" involved women who were aware of their husbands' sexuality.  I had a few friends who were in these kinds of marriages.  As much as men were under pressure to be straight, there was also pressure on women to get married.  Today, there's nothing particularly unusual about a woman remaining single into her 30's, 40's and beyond, but at the time it was a win-win situation for two people who might have no particular use for marriage anyhow.

Agree! 

In my own case, it does slightly get to me when people jump ahead of the facts and decide that my husband somehow needed to feign marriage due to social or family pressures. I'm not suggesting that you're doing this, but I just want to avoid giving these guys a free pass because blah blah blah victim of homophobic parents blah blah homophobic friends blah blah blah.

During our interview, Kristin referred to some gay/straight marriages as "mercenary" which I took to mean men who had ill, or perhaps evil, intent. I acknowledge that homophobia doesn't explain away why all gay men marry women, particularly gay men who re-marry women after being outed by straight spouses. So you make a valid point. 

It's not true, and it's just as cruel to stigmatize his family as being homophobic as it is to stigmatize me for "making" him cheat.  His parents were both very accepting for their generation -- maybe not perfect, but far more accepting than the parents of many gay men and women who, unlike my X, had the courage to be honest. My GIDXH worked at a very progressive firm, in a very progressive industry.  His mother's younger brother was a prominent gay activist in the early days in San Francisco, and is buried next to Harvey Milk.  His parents and siblings were always very, very supportive of this uncle.  After the uncle's death, they remained close with his partner. He had a more disturbing side to the family history: his maternal grandfather apparently had a secret second family (as well as a drinking problem).  Eventually, his grandparents divorced, and the grandmother moved in with my GIDXH's family.  It completely ripped apart the fabric of my MIL's family of origin: of her four brothers, two sided with their father and the other two sided with their mother (as did my MIL).  She has half-siblings she's never even met.  My GIDXH has cousins he's never met, and he's never had any relationship with his own scumbag grandfather. So it's clear to me that the "secret double life scamming your wife and child" thing is not a one-off occurrence in this little saga, and it sets my teeth on edge when the default narrative is always about how society's homophobia drives men like my X to do desperate things. 

Understood. I agree that we gay men often remain closeted because of mental illness and/or addiction. My mother's side of the family is riddled with alcoholism and perhaps this tendency towards secrecy/addiction pushed me into my own closet. Perhaps that's something to unpack with a mental health professional. 

MJM017 wrote: Just like walk, my husband didn't marry me due to family, religious or societal pressures.  His family wasn't religious or particularly conservative. They were from Key West, FL, and my ex moved to San Francisco with his family in 3rd grade, around the time of Stonewall. His parents were pop musicians. My ex did what he wanted and was strong willed. Am guessing, but not certain, he was punished for liking boys as a kid. He probably fought back knowing him.  He never went out of his way to please his parents or extend himself when I saw them. His parents returned to Florida during my ex's first year of college here at a large public college. He had no other family here.  No pressure to stay in the closet. Lots of fun for a single and young gay man in 1980's SF. I was born and raised here. LGB came to SF to be openly gay. It is an oasis.  It's supportive, There's no reason on earth to be in the closet. 

Wow. Question: why then do you think he married you and remained closeted? 

My GIDXH had a master's degree and worked in his field in a company with out gay men. Some in very good positions. No worries about getting ahead. Am assuming his attempts to find a gay sugar daddy didn't go well due to his bad temper and manipulative behavior.  He found me - naive with a very marketable degree. I was hard working and responsible. He pulled a con on me. He eventually stopped working.

Cancel my last question...he was looking for a sugar daddy or momma in this case. 

Longwayhome wrote: In all honesty, in my own situation, and I’ve given this much thought, I personally think it was the AIDS scare of the late 70’s and early 80’s that sent my bisexual stbx in the closet. I don’t want to or like to bring up problematic past issues, but the AIDS scare, for my generation, played a much bigger role in creating the closet than anything else, in my opinion. I don't think I am the only one who has thought of this, especially so, for the bisexual partner, they actually had two paths to choose from at the time, straight path or gay path.

This was my experience. I came of age during the 1980s-1990s AIDS crisis. At that time, I truly thought that having gay sex would be a death sentence. The images of gay men covered in lesions still make me shudder. Of course this doesn't totally excuse why I married a women, but I reckon it partially explains why I didn't come out as a teenager in the 80s. 

Lily wrote: I have come to believe that homophobia doesn't have much to do with straights, we're being blamed for it as usual but I believe it's mainly closet gays hating openly gay. The father who disowns his son when he comes out as gay being an example.

Author Dan Savage wrote an entire chapter in "American Savage" about gay-on-gay homophobia. In the US, there is a long list of deeply closeted gay men who were outspoken homophobes: 

Pastor Ted Haggard (a gay escort outed him)
Senator Larry Craig (arrested for soliciting sex in an airport bathroom)
George Alan Rekers, founder of the anti-gay Family Research Council (caught returning from Europe with a young male escort)

and the list goes on. I'd like to add that my own father and the other male members of my family have been nothing but loving and accepting of me as a gay man. In fact, during a recent family dinner my vegan cousin joked, "It's easier being gay in this family than vegan!" 

Thank you everyone for posting, commenting, and sharing. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean (October 7, 2021 6:32 am)

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Last edited by OutofHisCloset (October 10, 2021 4:32 pm)

Thank you everyone for sharing. In response to your questions/posts: 

MJM017 wrote: 

1. Were you diagnosed with NPD [narcissistic personality disorder] by a psychiatrist? Cluster B personality disorders aren't curable. They may be managed through medication and on-going therapy. One of my parents has a diagnosed Cluster B personality disorder.  Px drugs make a small dent. They didn't adhere to the intense psychotherapy (dialectal behavior therapy) needed. 

Yes I was diagnosed by a therapist I saw for a time after separating. After a few months, he said that he no longer needed to see me. I was surprised. This would have been 1-2 years after I'd come out. In my opinion, I believe I had a form of gay-in-denial narcissism, perhaps without being a full-blown narcissist, that simply melted away once I'd come out, re-discovered honesty/integrity, and fully accepted myself. As I shared during my recent interview for the Our Path/SSN podcast, I used a number of narcissistic tactics on my (then) wife and others such as: 

- Gaslighting
- Lying 
- Projecting
- Silent treatment

Following separation/divorce, I thankfully no longer felt the need to hide, lie about, and/or conceal my sexuality.

2. Could it be you took on narcissist-like behavioral traits?

Yes, that's possible. 

3. My opinion, but narcissist can be used as a pejorative or shorthand for poor moral choices.

Agreed. 

4. I noticed a mention of loss of control being difficult for the gay partner. I think that’s a key point. We often see very difficult behaviour when they start to feel a loss of control. There’s a huge need to control in many of these relationships.

I agree. This is why I caution straight wives when gay-in-denial (GID) or questioning husbands claim at the 11th hour, "I was raped/abused...and that made me gay." Please see my previous posts or listen to my interview with Kristin K. (Podcast - OurPath) to learn more. While all sexual abuse/assault is barbaric, claims of abuse made by pathologically dishonest husbands should be considered accordingly. My advice to straight spouses when confronted with such claims are: 

- Validate his feelings, mindful that he might be attempting to re-assert control via such claims
- Do not attend couples counselling to discuss past abuse, encourage him rather to attend therapy alone to work through the trauma
- Continue to focus on yourself and your relationship, meaning: his cheating/porn use; honesty; and his sexuality 
- Claims of abuse don't excuse inacceptable behaviour 

Put bluntly, I think most claims of "abuse made me gay" are echoes of faith-based conversion/reparative therapy. Based on my understanding of conversion therapy, homosexuality is wrongly considered a form of mental illness or a form of disorder caused by external factors...like sexual assault/abuse. So what's my point? If your sexually-confused husband claims he was abused at a time when you (the straight spouse) were openly discussing separation/divorce, encourage your husband to work with a qualified therapist ALONE. Don't get sucked into trying to rescue him via couples counselling nor does it automatically whitewash years of sexual starvation, gay porn, his butt plugs, his lube/viagra stash, and cheating with men. As a good gay friend of mine and childhood abuse victim once shared with me, "Some of us are just gay boys who were abused, not boys who became gay because of abuse. No one ever yells, ABUSE MADE ME STRAIGHT!"     

5. The most important point is the closeted LGBT+ should have never pretended. It's wrong. Many LGBT did the right thing in their personal lives.  They were lifelong bachelors or spinsters. They had "platonic" roommates.  They left small towns where everyone knew your business for big cities where you could live in anonymity.

Fair. 

Blue Bear wrote: 

1. Thank you for sharing your experience in the podcast interview!  Although I'm a straight dude who married a lesbian, I found much of your insight to be applicable to my experience.

Thank you friend. I rarely comment on straight husband/lesbian wife marriages because I have zero experience with such relationships. 

2. You mentioned that you had received heat for your hypothesis that gay-in-denial partners often play a fabricated "sexual abuse" card to accomplish a variety of goals.  I hope what I'm about to say here doesn't cause further controversy, but lesbian-in-denial women can do this, too, but in a much crueler way. 

Kristin mentioned this during our interview (Podcast - OurPath). I have to admit that I wasn't very surprised. 

3. The last time that my ex-wife and I had sex, she falsely accused me of raping her.  My ex-wife knew that I had treated her with nothing but respect during our 20-year relationship, that I was deeply respectful of women, and that I wanted to raise our two daughters in a respectful world.  These allegations were ridiculous, and it was her way to try to manipulate me into silence, obtain control over me, and to make me afraid that I had done something incredibly wrong (and criminal). 

How cruel of her. It's terrible what some gay-in-denial (GID) spouses will do to stay in our closets. 

4. She did this when she was in the middle of gaslighting me about everything, and I started to question whether perhaps I had done something wrong.  I cried, I vomited, and she reduced me to dust.

I'm so sorry she put you through this.

5. I know that I am not the only straight guy who has been in this situation, and I think most guys who are deeply respectful of women would be reluctant to speak about it out of fear.  Thank you for helping further the dialogue on straight partner issues in ways that I never thought possible.

Thank you for sharing friend. 

OOHC, longwayhome and MJM017 posted about straight wife/trans husband relationships. Out of respect, I haven't commented - nor will I - because I have zero experience with trans/straight marriages. If any straight wives have questions for a gay ex-husband, please post them here. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean (October 11, 2021 9:18 am)