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1 - Hoarfrost
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I Always Knew, Just Not to What Extent
Hi everyone,
Just to start off with an accurate picture. I'm a 30 year old man and my wife is 29. We just celebrated our ninth anniversary and have been together for 10 years. My wife and I met in college. Actually, we met on the first day of our first class of our first year. We hit it off very well, and were married within three years. Fast forward to today and we have two beautiful girls and have come to know each other in the deepest of ways any two people could hope to know each other.
I always knew she was interested in women, that was apparent to me from very beginning. Over the years she slowly grappled with her feelings and her orientation as time passed on. I created a safe and loving environment for her to work these things out (well, as much as a spouse possibly can) and she did. As things have progressed I noticed she started to withdraw from me little by little. Not surprising given the issue. However, about the time we found out she was pregnant with our youngest she went hard into the withdraw. Again, given the context, not a surprise. However, here we are three years after that hard turn into the withdraw and I cannot connect to her at all. Despite doing everything I can to give her the freedom she needs to work on this and making it known she is deeply loved she continues to reject me.
This finally came to a head in a recent fight. The intimacy has been dead for far too long (I'm not just talking sex) and that eventually lead to a nasty fight... you know the kind. After tempers cooled and we were talking in good faith with each other I asked her point blank if she was still attracted to men, she deflected and told me she's still attracted to me - an answer in and of itself. I then asked her if she had grown more attracted to women, she told me she doesn't know, for context, the last time we talked about this she said the attraction towards women was nothing more than odd little flairs of desire. A yes in it's own right. I asked her about our future and she said she still loved me knowing full well I wanted her to affirm that things would get out of this ditch, a commitment to improvement she couldn't make.
Now, I'm no pushover. I've worked in various jobs over the years that had me dealing with some of the darkest and most grim situations I could find myself in. I've made a point of building myself into being *the* guy who you turned to in a crisis. The person who always was prepared and could face anything dead in the eyes unflinching no matter how bad it would get.
This though? I don't know which way is up. I find the well of despair to be seemingly bottomless. I don't remember falling in and there is no light to be found. I'm adrift on an ephemeral and imperceptible current just dragging me along, no amount or type of swimming changes anything. The only thing I can do tread water as I'm swept along.
Is our marriage just a loss? Has the last 10 years been pointless? Do I just accept that what we had is gone? I grow more bitter towards her everyday and I don't want to but she's just... gone. I don't know what to do and where to turn. She won't talk to me about it, and while I want to respect her privacy and provide her what she needs... I can't wait another 10 years for her to figure out if she wants to stay with me.
What do I do?
- Lynne
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Re: I Always Knew, Just Not to What Extent
Hi, You're 30 years old and have 2 beautiful girls. Two great things going for you right there. You've been caring, understanding, and patient with your spouse and she's not talking and is emotionally gone. You're feeling very depressed and defeated. Sounds like she's checked out and you don't want to waste any more time on the hamster wheel. Please consult with an attorney and find some help for your depression.
- OutofHisCloset
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Re: I Always Knew, Just Not to What Extent
Let me echo back some things to you from your post and then comment on them:
The intimacy is dead, both in the bedroom and out of it.
Your wife won't talk to you about it and has flat out told you she can't (won't) commit to working to improve it..
If she won't commit to working to improve the situation, she's given you an answer: the way things are is working (well enough, anyway) for her, and your dissatisfaction is not enough for her to agree to work for an improvement.
Two young children and ten years into marriage is a challenging period in the best of marriages. But when things are hard, the proof of the pudding--the clue to whether you've got a chance--is each partner's willingness to do the work necessary to tackle the problem together. You're willing, and have made that clear. She's not, and she's made that clear.
You can't fix this on your own, and you haven't been able to influence your wife's behavior either by patient non-engagement or active discussion. When you have pushed her, she's told you she can't promise she'll change her ways. She's made her position clear. It's almost as if she's challenging you to pull the plug--have you ever heard of "suicide by cop"? This looks to me like "divorce by provocation." Why? Because she doesn't have the courage to pull the plug herself. Maybe because she doesn't have the courage to come out. So she subjects herself and you to this detente of a marriage.
At this point, it's pretty clear that your next move is to acknowledge to yourself that things as they stand aren't acceptable to you, and that because she isn't willing to make them better, to act in the ways available to you. As you have reached the end of your patience and find yourself getting bitter and angry, I'd say the next step is for you to see a lawyer, and find out what your options are for divorce.
You and your wife got together when she was 19 and you were 20. You say you have always known she was attracted to women, but did you know for many lesbians their sexuality does not come into focus for them until their late teens or early 20s? I'd say it's very possible that you two got involved in a period in which she was still sorting herself out.
You understood clearly what she implied when she flat out answered your question about whether she is still attracted to men by saying she is still attracted to you (and yet your sex life is dead and there's a general lack of intimacy in your marriage). I'd say that's as clear and direct a statement from her about her sexuality as she's willing to give. Act on that understanding.
Let me also say this: you are about the age of my son. If my son were going through this I'd say to him not to continue to beat his head against the wall. Whether she's lesbian or not (and I strongly suspect time will tell she is), the situation in your marriage is poisonous, and it can't improve by the efforts of one person alone. So go to see a lawyer ti find out how to get the best deal you can for time with your childen.
Oh, and PS: it's better for children to be FROM a so-called broken home, than to live IN one. A marriage in which there is no intimacy and the relation between the parents is characterized by mulish instransigence in one and bitterness in the other is no atmosphere in which to raise children. You don't stay for your children; you leave for them. If you want them to have the experience of a loving home and model for them a healthy heterosexual relationship, you're going to have to find that elsewhere--and you are young enough to for that to happen.
Last edited by OutofHisCloset (June 23, 2021 5:43 am)
- Upside
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Re: I Always Knew, Just Not to What Extent
Hi Hoarfrost. Very sorry that your spouse has placed you in this position.
Our stories feel similar. Together since school. Spouse had an attraction to women. Stoic warrior for the family, proud of my strength to weather any storm. Gradual slide into a bad place. Secrets. Lies by omission. No communication. Paralyzing fear about taking action in any direction. The difference is, I stayed for 10 years after where you are today.
Your wife is being deceptive. She has lied by omission about her feelings towards women. Now, when directly asked, she is lying, playing with words to avoid answering. As my wife said around this time "some things are private". When your spouse believes their sexuality is none of your business (while actively deceiving you to believe otherwise) then your marriage has ended. You are being kept around to be used.
This will likely be a trying time. Keeping your head above water is the only mission. Get sleep. Eat. Give some extra self-care. Buy yourself something nice. Be kind to yourself. Hug your kids.
It can feel like the entire marriage was bad if it ends badly. But you have comforted each other through a trying decade of life. You have made children that you love. You have learned what you enjoy and what you dislike. All of that will help you into this next phase. You deserve honesty about the basics.
If I were you, I'd schedule couples counseling first. This won't work. Your spouse is choosing to lie to you. But it will give her a forum to try and disclose her feelings in a neutral setting. She may or she may choose to continue her deception. Give this a date (ex: 4 months or by 10/1) and log each day whether this was a good or bad day.
Uncertainty is our gut's way of telling us no. If you're unsure at the end what to do, or if the bad day column is bigger, you have your answer. Yes's, like those of who you should spend your life with, are enthusiastic and joyful. I lived in uncertainty for 15 years. It never goes away, the deceiver only gets better at gaslighting and manipulation.
Another action you can take is to consult a lawyer. Talking to a lawyer is free and will help sketch out what that path might look like. It will inform your actions, empowering you.
When I was in similar shoes a few years back, I didn't listen to the advice shared here. I thought it was overly negative. That love conquers all. We were different. That my wife couldn't really be deceiving me to be with women, right? I spent another year of my life in couples counseling, finding evidence of her continued affairs. If I could go back, I would listen to this forum's advice and save myself the heartbreak. You may need to walk some painful roads to sleep best at night.
Once your partner decides to deceive you about themselves, the relationship has an expiration date. There is no one right path ahead. Trust your gut and with one step in front of the other you'll find your way to brighter days.
Wishing you strength and happiness ahead.
Last edited by Upside (June 23, 2021 12:47 pm)
- Hoarfrost
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Re: I Always Knew, Just Not to What Extent
OutofHisCloset wrote:
Let me echo back some things to you from your post and then comment on them:
The intimacy is dead, both in the bedroom and out of it.
Your wife won't talk to you about it and has flat out told you she can't (won't) commit to working to improve it..
If she won't commit to working to improve the situation, she's given you an answer: the way things are is working (well enough, anyway) for her, and your dissatisfaction is not enough for her to agree to work for an improvement.
Two young children and ten years into marriage is a challenging period in the best of marriages. But when things are hard, the proof of the pudding--the clue to whether you've got a chance--is each partner's willingness to do the work necessary to tackle the problem together. You're willing, and have made that clear. She's not, and she's made that clear.
That's the most frustrating thing. She says she wants to do what it takes to make it work, and she'll go to counseling with me and talk ad nauseam about her grand intentions but when it comes down to it she just won't do or change anything. She is always "too overwhelmed" or "too frustrated" no matter the amount of support I provide her or time away from the girls I provide her. My life right now is up at 5, work by 6:30, home at 5:30 and immediately take the girls off her shoulders and she runs off to do whatever is she wants to do all evening. This is a 4 to 5 days a week pattern including weekends.
You can't fix this on your own, and you haven't been able to influence your wife's behavior either by patient non-engagement or active discussion. When you have pushed her, she's told you she can't promise she'll change her ways. She's made her position clear. It's almost as if she's challenging you to pull the plug--have you ever heard of "suicide by cop"? This looks to me like "divorce by provocation." Why? Because she doesn't have the courage to pull the plug herself. Maybe because she doesn't have the courage to come out. So she subjects herself and you to this detente of a marriage.
This has long been a suspicion of mine. It seems like no matter how much I move in her direction and no matter the force used... she just want budge. Whether it's genuine inability or lack of willingness I can't say. I can't think of a thing to say or do to help her do this. She outright admits that the overwhelming majority if her needs are being met, when I ask her for ways I can improve for her she just gives me some waning answer about how no one is perfect.
At this point, it's pretty clear that your next move is to acknowledge to yourself that things as they stand aren't acceptable to you, and that because she isn't willing to make them better, to act in the ways available to you. As you have reached the end of your patience and find yourself getting bitter and angry, I'd say the next step is for you to see a lawyer, and find out what your options are for divorce.
You and your wife got together when she was 19 and you were 20. You say you have always known she was attracted to women, but did you know for many lesbians their sexuality does not come into focus for them until their late teens or early 20s? I'd say it's very possible that you two got involved in a period in which she was still sorting herself out.
It's funny you mention that. I've always been the one to bring to light her issues over the years. She is prone to lying to herself frequently, so that initial conversation about her sexuality was one I brought up after she was mourning a relationship that fell apart with a female friend. I told her that she was acting as if she had lost a lover and not an estranged friend and then asked her if she had romantic feelings for her friend. She just started crying.
You understood clearly what she implied when she flat out answered your question about whether she is still attracted to men by saying she is still attracted to you (and yet your sex life is dead and there's a general lack of intimacy in your marriage). I'd say that's as clear and direct a statement from her about her sexuality as she's willing to give. Act on that understanding.
Let me also say this: you are about the age of my son. If my son were going through this I'd say to him not to continue to beat his head against the wall. Whether she's lesbian or not (and I strongly suspect time will tell she is), the situation in your marriage is poisonous, and it can't improve by the efforts of one person alone. So go to see a lawyer ti find out how to get the best deal you can for time with your childen.
I think you're right. The situation is just degrading. I hate to have to push he issue right now because there are a serious host of problems with her family we're dealing with... Her father suffering from Alzheimsers, her mother from extreme paranoia (won't leave the home, thinks everyone is watching her, ect.) and I'm the person coordinating efforts to make sure they're taken care of and not just left to drown (her parents are divorced). Her and her sister are actually doing the work at their insistence but I've been the one to formulate the plan, line out what needs to be done, talk about legal processes, coordinate best ways to respond to extreme statements, ect. Ect.
Oh, and PS: it's better for children to be FROM a so-called broken home, than to live IN one. A marriage in which there is no intimacy and the relation between the parents is characterized by mulish instransigence in one and bitterness in the other is no atmosphere in which to raise children. You don't stay for your children; you leave for them. If you want them to have the experience of a loving home and model for them a healthy heterosexual relationship, you're going to have to find that elsewhere--and you are young enough to for that to happen.
This is a very useful and insightful statement. One I suspect that stems from a deep and personal level. Thank you.
- •
Thread Starter- Hoarfrost
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Re: I Always Knew, Just Not to What Extent
Hi Hoarfrost. Very sorry that your spouse has placed you in this position.
Our stories feel similar. Together since school. Spouse had an attraction to women. Stoic warrior for the family, proud of my strength to weather any storm. Gradual slide into a bad place. Secrets. Lies by omission. No communication. Paralyzing fear about taking action in any direction. The difference is, I stayed for 10 years after where you are today.
Your wife is being deceptive. She has lied by omission about her feelings towards women. Now, when directly asked, she is lying, playing with words to avoid answering. As my wife said around this time "some things are private". When your spouse believes their sexuality is none of your business (while actively deceiving you to believe otherwise) then your marriage has ended. You are being kept around to be used.
This will likely be a trying time. Keeping your head above water is the only mission. Get sleep. Eat. Give some extra self-care. Buy yourself something nice. Be kind to yourself. Hug your kids.
It can feel like the entire marriage was bad if it ends badly. But you have comforted each other through a trying decade of life. You have made children that you love. You have learned what you enjoy and what you dislike. All of that will help you into this next phase. You deserve honesty about the basics.
If I were you, I'd schedule couples counseling first. This won't work. Your spouse is choosing to lie to you. But it will give her a forum to try and disclose her feelings in a neutral setting. She may or she may choose to continue her deception. Give this a date (ex: 4 months or by 10/1) and log each day whether this was a good or bad day.
Uncertainty is our gut's way of telling us no. If you're unsure at the end what to do, or if the bad day column is bigger, you have your answer. Yes's, like those of who you should spend your life with, are enthusiastic and joyful. I lived in uncertainty for 10 years. It never goes away, the deceiver only gets better at gaslighting and manipulation.
Another action you can take is to consult a lawyer. Talking to a lawyer is free and will help sketch out what that path might look like. It will inform your actions, empowering you.
Again, I was in similar shoes a few years back. I didn't listen to the advice shared here. I thought it was overly negative. That love conquers all. That my wife couldn't really be deceiving me to be with women, right? I spent another year of my life in couples counseling, finding evidence of her continued affairs. If I could go back, I would listen to this forum's advice.
Once your partner decides to deceive you about themselves, you are doomed. There is no one right path. You may need to walk this yourself to sleep best at night. Trust your gut and with one step in front of the other you'll find your way to brighter days.
Wishing you strength and happiness ahead.
Thank you, I really appreciate the picture of where you have been. It really helps to have this sort of clarity. For all intents and purposes I do believe she wants to try to make it work but she isn't... for whatever reason. I don't want to spend years waiting only to have it go down in flames anyways, which is the trajectory I believe at this point.
- •
Thread Starter- lily
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Re: I Always Knew, Just Not to What Extent
Hi HF, just felt I would like to respond - mainly to second what everyone else has said. What a time to find out, with three young children. Thing is, it has happened. so it is going to continue for a while, the shock of it takes a while to sink in. I was in my 50's when I realised I had married a GID. That's Gay In Denial. It's a way of being. And I read your story and hear the same fudging of facts and disingenuous responses I got from my own ex year after year. It still gets to me and I just want to yell watch out get away from her - like there's a snake in the grass in front of you. In other words, your story is reminding me of my own.
Gay in denial. odds are it is in her parentage.
So going back to seconding what others have said, a strong happy dad is the best thing you can do for your kids. just let this sink in first. proceed wisely. Try and get a feel for the lie of the land.
wishing you all the best, Lily
- Daryl
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Re: I Always Knew, Just Not to What Extent
That's the most frustrating thing. She says she wants to do what it takes to make it work, and she'll go to counseling with me and talk ad nauseam about her grand intentions but when it comes down to it she just won't do or change anything. She is always "too overwhelmed" or "too frustrated" no matter the amount of support I provide her or time away from the girls I provide her. My life right now is up at 5, work by 6:30, home at 5:30 and immediately take the girls off her shoulders and she runs off to do whatever is she wants to do all evening. This is a 4 to 5 days a week pattern including weekends.
I experienced something similar. An expressed intention to work on the relationship but not doing the homework. This was all pre-disclosure. Post-disclosure she alluded to possibly trying to make me want to pull the plug first. Not an admission, more of a maybe, not really sure, in a sub-conscious sort of way.
“The future is unwritten.”
― Joe Strummer
- Hoarfrost
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Re: I Always Knew, Just Not to What Extent
A bit of a follow up post for those keeping track of this thread. Last night I went home and after the girls were in bed I really pushed the issue. She gave me what I believe are honest answers. She said she's really confused right now and doesn't know if she's attracted to men, she said she doesn't know if she's grown more attracted to women. I asked her if she could commit to things being better within one year's s time, she said she doesn't know. I told her the previous baseline for our intimacy wasn't going to work for me and I outlined the ways I needed things to improve versus how they were previously before the rut and she couldn't guarantee that. She did agree to counseling and she's going to call the counselor today. Then something weird happened... we went to bed, cuddled and fell asleep like that, had sex, and then fell asleep holding each other again.
My head is spinning. I just don't understand what is happening. On one hand I feel that there is no future or hope here, on the other I feel like she does care about me and wants things to work. I'm at an absolute loss anymore.
Last edited by Hoarfrost (June 24, 2021 12:09 pm)
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Thread Starter- lily
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Re: I Always Knew, Just Not to What Extent
sorry to hear that HF but this is all expected behaviour from a gay in denial spouse - her 'answers' were I'm confused, idk, idk, idk, okay I'll go to a counsellor. What do you think she is doing while you are looking after the kids?
I remember finally understanding he wasn't confused I was. His answers were confusing me. and a heartbeat away from that I realised it was deliberate, intended to confuse me.
Last edited by lily (June 24, 2021 4:43 pm)