Thank you for writing Veritas. In reply: 

1. Hi Sean, I've been on this journey for the past 4 years, but I'm new to Our Path and it's my first post in the Forum.

Welcome friend, although I'm so very sorry you've found yourself here. 

2. I've listened to all of your interviews with Kristin Kelbli in Our Voices and lots of things you said sounded familiar. I hope you can help me...

I'll try. I'm glad the podcast interviews helped. 

3. In 2019, after our Silver Wedding Anniversary [25 years married], I discovered my husband was taking PrEP meds prior to a visit to the US. I confronted him and he said he had sex with a man, but JUST once and JUST out of curiosity. He was tested for DSTs and the results came back positive for Chlamydia, herpes and syphilis, which I thought was really too many diseases from just one encounter.

Wow. I'm so sorry he put you through all of this. As I shared in my podcast interviews, cheating is like an iceberg. This means that 9/10ths of the truth often remains underwater. PrEP is a medication for men who have sex with men to prevent contracting HIV/AIDS. While I am not a medical doctor, I am an out gay man who has sex with other men. The above facts suggest that your husband has had, and is having, unprotected sex with multiple male partners.  

4. Anyway, we did couple's counseling for 6 months...

Something we all do...and it rarely helps.

5. ...he denied he was gay, he promised he would not do the same again, and we moved on.

Something closeted husbands all do, and it rarely lasts. 

6. Last October I made new discoveries on his phone: explicit photos of men, message exchanges, Instagram searches uniquely of muscular men in speedos... Furthermore, I discovered that this started way before 2019. Maybe it has always been there as a secret life. I confronted him again and he couldn't deny it.

If I may be so bold, there is finding his Grindr profile and some chat messages and then there is meeting with a doctor, getting a PrEP prescription, taking PrEP daily, having unprotected sex with men, and then testing positive for THREE (3) STDs/STIs! So what's my point? These facts all suggest that your husband has A LOT of sexual experience with other men. And let's not lose sight of the main issue here: if you two have been sexually active this entire time he's been putting YOUR health/life at risk. That ain't love. That's some straight up bullsh*t. 

7. He tells me he texted people and saw pictures but since 2019 he never met anyone face-to-face. Something tells me he is lying.

Correct! So why take PrEP? He didn't catch chlamydia, herpes and syphilis (!!!!) from Instagram. He's insulting your intelligence with these lies which only confirm he's in deep deep denial about his sexuality. Yes of course he's bald-face lying. 

8. It's a bit like the story "The Boy Who Cried Wolf". He is seeing a therapist now and tells me that through therapy he discovered he is bisexual and therefore there is still a way for us to be together.

How enlightened. I think we can replace "discovered" with "caught." 

9. I refuse to have sex with him.

Of course! If you do have sex in the future, condoms condoms condoms + regular STI/STD testing. No husband is worth risking your health and sexual well being for, in my opinion. 

10. His sexual orientation is less important in deciding to stay or leave than the lies and deceit.

100% agree. 

11. I'm just wondering... All his encounters have been with men. All his message exchanges have been with men. All he sees online are men. Is he bi or gay?

It's common for straight wives to use words like "encounter" and "exploration" rather than "cheating" and/or "he's f*cking men behind my back." In my experience, this is a sign of shock following discovery. In response to your question, if your husband has sex with, and appears to enjoy sex with, both women and men, this is considered bisexual. If however your husband refuses to have sex with you, does not have sex with any other women, and only has sex with men, then this suggests he's gay-in-denial. 

12. I've never been with another man so I have no way to compare his performance with the performance of other men. He says he is attracted to me and was able to have sex but go figure what he thinks about when he closes his eyes. Help please? 

Again, I'm so very sorry he's putting you through all of this. As I shared in my podcast interviews, the classic intimacy arc with gay/straight relationships is as follows: he reluctantly has sex with his wife at the beginning of the relationship (wrongly making her feel it's her fault); sex then diminshes when the couple has children ("I'm just too overworked/tired..."); he explores his sexuality virtually and then inevitabily in the real world via cheating; and then conjugal sex all but stops in his 40s. Sex often stops for two reasons: first, he fears putting her at risk for STDs/STIs; and second, once he's acted on his true (homo)sexuality then it's nearly impossible for him to perform sexually with his wife. So they become more co-parents and roommates than lovers. Strangely, despite all of his excuses with her, he seems to have bucketloads of time, energy, and viagra-fueled erections for elaborately planned out-of-town male-on-male encounters. Sound familiar? 

So what now? In my opinion, the PrEP + STDs/STIs confirm the following: 

- Your husband has been having sex with men for years, if not a decade. 
- Your husband is incapable of being honest with you and with himself about his sexuality.

So the rule going forward should be: when his mouth is moving and he's talking about his sexuality, he's lying. Most gay-in-denial husbands (GIDHs) choose careers that involve a lot of travel; because this travel gives us the opportunity to have sex with men away from the homestead. If your relationship follows a common arc, you have likely assumed the role of his sexual probationary officer, meaning you might be tracking his movements while also policing his devices. This will change his habits, but not his sexuality. He'll likely just go to more elaborate lengths to hide his gay web history and cheating; meaning a burner phone; a lot of three-hour trips to get milk; and/or completely anonymous hook ups in sex shops or cruising parks. So I would urge you practice only safe sex with him, insist on frequent STD/STI testing, and fully expect to discover other "encounters" in the near future. 

I hope that helps my friend. Please feel free to post again. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (September 9, 2023 4:33 am)

Thank you for writing Veritas. Below are my thoughts/replies: 

1. Thank you for all your comments on my post. I have a question about remark number 11, when you say: "If however your husband refuses to have sex with you, does not have sex with any other women, and only has sex with men, then this suggests he's gay-in-denial. " I can't say he denies having sex with me.

Understood. I reckon it's up to each straight spouse to determine if the sex/intimacy she has with her husband meets her sexual and emotional needs. For example, it's quite common for the closeted/questioning husband to attempt a form of mechanical or performative sex with his wife....albeit reluctantly and infrequently. (Performative = zero passion.) And once he's been caught cheating with men, a 2-3 month "honeymoon" phase begins during which he furiously attempts sex with her; in a frenzied quest to prove to both himself and his wife that he's straight. It rarely lasts.

So what's my point? Straight people divorce all the time because of a lack of sexual connection. So I believe straight spouses should ask themselves: Is sex with my husband truly meeting my needs? Most of the women I've exchanged with over the years claim they're having "sex" only to later reluctantly disclose that they're enduring: pegging him with a strapon; he performs oral sex but cannot remain erect for penis-in-vagina (PIV) sex; lying next to him while he masturbates to (gay) porn; or threesomes with other men during which her questioning/closeted husband appears much more interested in sex with the other man...treating her more like a compliant sofa. Put bluntly, she's doing all the work: raising kids; arranging counselling appointments; posting here; simulating, or (worse) witnessing, male-on-male sex. And what's he doing to save the marriage? Fapping to gay porn and chatting on Grindr. It's bullsh*t.     

2. I thought about the arc you described. There was more sex when we were young but I have to admit we were never sex-crazy people. Once the kids arrived and we were living overseas with no support at all, we were always tired and sleep looked more appealing than sex. Later on, sex would happen on schedule, once per week.

Understood. The question remains: is this man meeting your sexual needs and, if not, will he ever be capable of the same? 

3. Having said that, all the evidence I found shows all his cheating (now using your word) has been exclusively with men. That's why the idea that is bi after all, doesn't sit well with me. Any thoughts on that?

Well done on calling it what it is: cheating! I reckon cheating is cheating my friend, regardless of gender. It's quite common for straight spouses in your situation, namely those who have overwhelming proof of husbands who cheat with men, to get hung up on the question: "Is he gay or bisexual?" (Please see my most recent exchanges with Jenny.) I personally believe it's a form of bargaining, understandably to delay making a huge decision about separation/divorce. If these husbands were cheating with women, the issue is more black and white. Most women understand that when a husband cheats for years with other women, society deems that relationship beyond repair and the next steps are separation/divorce. Unfortunately things get rather fuzzy with husbands who deny any attraction to men...all while f*cking men for years. Some GIDHs even conjure up bullsh*t abuse stories to distract from years of cheating. 

So what's my point? At the end of the day, you have to determine if you want to spend the rest of your life with a cheating and dishonest husband who won't likely stop having sex with men behind your back. I hope that helps. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (September 11, 2023 5:37 am)

Hey Sean!
I used to be on here a long time ago but haven’t posted since I divorced and moved on with my life. Occasionally I am still haunted by things that occurred in my marriage. Recently one memory came up, that I wanted to ask you about. I was wondering if this is ever done in the LGBTQ community or if it is strange for a heterosexual male to do this. When I was married to my now ex husband. He would sometimes stop himself from ejaculating. He would do this by pressing something near or underneath his balls. He would do this if he didn’t want to make a mess like I guess if we were at either of our parent’s houses or if he didn’t want to cum during a hand job. What are your thoughts on this?

No questions right now. I have yet to read the whole thread. But I've started reading it and wanted to thank you for offering it to the community.

Welcome back Moppy. In response to your post: 

1. Hey Sean! Back at the end of June you really helped me see what was going on in my ending marriage. When people ask about my story,  I tell them about the podcast and how I communicated with you and the veil was lifted from my eyes. I'm really grateful you took the time to respond to me and help all of these other people to understand their stories.

Glad to have helped. Here is a link to your first post. 

2. We are now 4 months into the divorce process. It's a long road. I think I have read some responses about things pertaining to this, but I have been wanting to ask you your thoughts. We have 50/50 custody. He was supposed to have them M T, me W TH, and then we alternate weekends. However, I was still with our 2 year old Mondays and Tuesdays 8-5, and then picked up our 6 an 7 year olds from school on Mondays and Tuesdays and had them from 2-5. Then he would pick them up from my house at 5 on his days.

Understood. 

3. I realized this isn't truly 50/50 and was asking that he either find other childcare, or pay me.  I thought we were both on the same page about us feeling like them being with me was in the best interest for them so they didn't have to have other childcare and could be with their mom because my job is remote and flexible, but he continued to have excuses for why he couldn't pay me. Eventually I told him I wouldn't be there Monday morning to be with our daughter if he wasn't willing to pay me. He paid me for Monday and Tuesday, but then let me know that he found a babysitter and would be sending her there instead and would pick up the girls from school Monday and Tuesday. I asked why he would rather pay a sitter than the mother of his children, and he said "simply because I don't want to have to deal with your bullshit". (my bullshit being- me asking that he pay me for my time with them during his days.)

Looks like his mask has (finally) fallen. If I'm reading this correctly, he doesn't have the time (or perhaps isn't interested) in taking care of your two-year-old. As for the bullsh*t comment, he wouldn't be the world's first angry ex-husband. Whether a future ex-husband is gay, straight, or closeted, blame shifts and angry outbursts are common currency as he slowly realizes just how much his future ex-wife did for him (childcare; laundry; shopping; housekeeping etc.). If your future ex-husband does indeed have a personality disorder, he's facing a nightmare scenario: being alone with himself. The personality disordered are parasites; meaning they need hosts to survive. I'd suggest discussing all of this with a qualified therapist.   
 
4. ANYWAY, I am now in a place where I don't know what I should do. From your own experience and what you have gathered through your years, is the gay narcissistic parent able to undo their emotionally abusive patterns in order to care for their children?

If your husband has a diagnosed personality disorder, it's unlikely he'll change. 

5. I do believe in his heart somewhere he cares for them. But right now I don't truly believe he is putting them first, and I also feel like he is both punishing me and being prideful and just not wanting to pay me. 

Depending on the severity of his disorder - again assuming he has a diagnosed personality disorder - he likely struggles to feel love and a strong bond with your children. There are two possibilities with formerly closeted husbands: 1. he wants 50/50 custody because he truly loves and wants to spend time with his children; 2. he is going through the motions of joint custody to give the appearance of being a loving father.  Scenario #1 is about your kids whereas scenario #2 is more about approval.  

6. When the older two were younger, I did feel like he was a good, present dad.

I'd challenge you on this statement friend. A good/present dad doesn't f*ck your church's (male) youth pastor while hiding the affair. A good/present dad doesn't dump his wife and kids for frequent "Brokeback Mountain" trips with male friends.  

7. I'm not sure if it was genuine, or if it was because he was playing the straight husband/dad part well- because he also had me fooled, presenting himself as a loving, doting husband.

You'll likely see this more clearly as you continue to detach from him.  

8. So basically, should I fight him and try to get that time back and have him pay me? Or is 50/50 a good choice, and should I try to see the positives in having more time for myself, and less connection to him on a regular basis? I am obviously happy to have them more and wanted that, I just wanted to be compensated for my time, because it makes me unable to work, I pay for gas, food, etc. - which he said was bullshit.

I'm not an attorney so I'd suggest discussing all of this with your lawyer. Following separation/divorce, your husband might go through "gay adolescence" which is a few years of teen-like boy craziness. During gay adolescence, he'll probably go through a "slut phase", fall in lust with several guys, make grandiose plans with one or more of them, only to have a series of rather spectacular break ups. So what's my point? You alone should determine what custody arrangement works for both of you, however, I might suggest discussing a clause that sets a reasonable timeline for introducing a new partner....particularly for formerly closted ex-husbands. I'm in contact with a lot of fellow gay ex-husbands who (legally) had to wait a year or two before introducing a new partner.   

9. I just need to know in my heart that he isn't emotionally abusing them the way he did me for 10 years, because if he is I want them back. But just like it was for me, the abuse is sneaky, so there is no way they will be able to articulate it.

I can't imagine the stress and am so very sorry you've found yourself in this situation. These are conversations you should have with a qualified child psychologist. Your children should also perhaps be in therapy to discuss these and other issues. 

10. He is saying he is in therapy, and he has even said he recognizes he has narcissistic tendencies, which feels like progress- but then he continues to play the victim, explain away his abuse and deception, and pull things like what I mentioned above. So I get glimmers of hope, but then am disheartened.

Let's hope he's in therapy and is actively working on what appears to be a personality disorder. As for the hope followed by disappointment, I reckon it's time to start limiting contact with your future ex-husband. 

11. I try not to focus on his healing much and try to control what I can, but his healing is pertinent in how I feel he is able to care for our daughters.

These statements appear to contradict each other...but such is the nature of gay/straight divorces. The straight wife is more often the healer, empath, or even co-dependent; always feeling the need to "heal" her ex-husband. You've made an excellent start my friend and will likely see things more clearly over the next months/years. 

12. I am reeling and I'm so sad- the weight of not being with them all the time has finally hit me.

This is totally understandable. 

13. What was your arrangement and did it work well for you? were you able to step up and provide care 50% of the time? Were you emotionally abusive towards them? 

On paper we had joint custody but I largely abandoned my kids during gay adolescence; under the pretext of letting them "stay when they wanted" which understandably was almost never. However, I have since apologized to my kids, owned my many mistakes, and we now see each other all the time...with my boyfriend of 11 years. I also never forced my kids to meet my boyfriend and it took almost nine years...but the wait was worth it. As for being emotionally abusive, I hope I wasn't but am not the best judge of the same. 

I hope I've answered your questions but feel free to write/post again. Be well! 

 

Last edited by Sean01 (October 20, 2023 10:33 am)