Thank you for writing HereInMpls, in reply: 

1. It does help. Not that it matters, but to clarify- I'm plenty angry. I'm angry about how I'm being treated. I'm not angry about her being herself. I would have been her biggest supporter and was trying to be when I thought she must be bi. I'd still like to get there.

Understood. My question is: what is she currently doing to support you? Based on what you've shared, it sounds like this relationship is largely one-sided.  

2. For now, I know I need some space. She's been out of town at Disney with my two youngest kids for 4 days and my therapist commented today on how different I am. Peaceful, at ease. I can't heal while the person who has caused so much pain is right here, treating me like I don't exist. I can't stay in that anger, it's incredibly damaging.

Agreed. A word of caution my friend: if your wife is traveling with her new (female) best friend, then this is likely her girlfriend. While I don't have a lot of experience with lesbian/straight marriages, the new girlfriend is often introduced to the family as a new "best friend." Just a word of caution. 

3. I wonder if late-blooming lesbians like men more? I know a few who were married, had kids, have come out and after getting through their adolescence (and generally treating their husbands like shit initially, according to them) they still love their husbands and end up friends.

After years of exchanging with straight wives, most have spent decades hoping beyond hope for a better future. It often sounds something like this: once he works through his childhood trauma with a therapist; stops cheating; stops watching gay porn; stops lying to me; we'll have a shot a real relationship. So what's my point? I'd urge you to accept and deal with who she is at the moment...not who you're praying for her to be. For example, if she is currently dishonest, then it's safe to assume she's mostly lying to you. If she is toxically self-centred at the moment, then you're only torturing yourself if you expect her to be kind/caring. This may sting a bit but you can reasonably assume that she's sleeping with women at the moment because this is what newly out people do...explore their sexualities. She'll also likely continue to lie, distract and gaslight you when challenged about her sexuality. It's not that she's a bad person for doing so. It's more that honesty - when it comes to her sexuality - just isn't a language she understands at the moment. I hope that doesn't hurt too much my friend but this is the common progression of gay/straight relationships. 

4. Idk, I just have to heal now. Thanks for your insights.

Thank YOU for sharing my friend. I'd urge you to keep posting because for every straight spouse sharing here, I believe there are hundreds following your journeys. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (February 8, 2023 1:30 pm)

Thank you for sharing Rose and such a pleasure to see your last message. For context, please click this link to see Rose's first forum post. In reply to your latest message: 

1. I am 5 or more like 15 years into hoping therapy etc brings some sense of self awareness, healing in some direction., so that we can get to a peaceful next chapter.

I'm so sorry you and your family have been suffering...and for so long. As I shared above, most straight wives spend decades hoping beyond hope for a better future. It often sounds something like this: once he works through his childhood trauma with a therapist; stops cheating; stops watching gay porn; stops lying to me; we'll have a shot a real relationship. Unfortunately, that "new beginning" never materializes. And our children often suffer the terrible effects of living in a toxic household...full of secrets.  

2. And, instead, this is what I get [from her closeted/questioning husband]: “It’s unfortunate that you think you need to end the marriage to make the point that what I did is not ok.  You have made that point for the last 5 years and I agree.  So sad that you believe you need to kill the entire relationship to make that point.  I remain very concerned that you are focused on the event of separating and not the permanent implications.  But it’s your choice.”

What an *sshole. This is a classic blame shift and might also demonstrate some form of gay-in-denial personality disorder; something I'd suggest you review with a qualified therapist. "It's your choice" is particularly galling given your future ex-husband's long history of cheating with men. My question to him would be: what, if anything, did you do wrong?  

3. Ok wait. Erotic pics - really- sent to my by the boyfriend over my social media accounts. Multiple cell phones - recently! And a significant drinking problem. And somehow it’s my fault? Ugh.

In my unprofessional opinion, your future ex-husband appears to have lost touch with reality. Few sane husbands would define marriage as: lies; infidelity; and (now) addiction. So no, this isn't your fault because your husband chose to, and continues to, cheat on you.  

4. Save yourself. Keep your honor, no need to make it worse for your floundering partner, but save yourself. Now. (I know it’s hard / I still love mine.  Fingers crossed he finds himself. But I’m doing no good by not getting out, now.)

Agreed. 

5. This started for me when I was 40, if not before that - “is it the Zoloft or is it me?” - and only escalated. Now I’m 56 and rebuilding a life on my own, still in the face of massive resistance as in the text above. Go. Now. I have a lot of nice friends who would love to meet you, in an honest way!

Well said my friend. I hope you and your children are well. Please feel free to post an update as I believe you planned to move out last September. 

Last edited by Sean01 (February 9, 2023 4:42 am)

Thank you for writing Needtoknow22. I'll do my best to reply to your questions/post but to do so will edit it down. Here goes: 

1. I am posting here for a few things. I'm wondering if some of the things that feel like red flags to me, are red flags. I'm also wondering how if there is any way to get him to tell me. I've made my stance on cheating clear so if he has already cheated...I don't know how to convince him to tell me.

While we can debate your husband's sexuality, "cheater" is a very black and white term. I have always maintained that cheating is like an iceberg, meaning 9/10ths remains under water. So if you caught your partner in one or two affairs, you should multiply that by x10. So if he admitted to one affair, that means he's likely had 10+ lovers. 

2. Ten years ago I had a gay best friend when I met my SO [significant other]. Them two quickly became great friends. But things started getting weird where my SO spent more time with him than me. But then it got weirder bc the gay friend started making odd remarks and then tried making me jealous. It was an important event in our lives and I couldn't be out late bc of a major function for me. But gay BFF [best friend forever] was saying that he is so excited that my SO was coming to drink with him that night (SO had never told me about that) and claimed he had no idea what BFF was talking about that he planned to finish out that evening with his other friend group and he didn't feel comfortable drinking alone with gay BFF. Since then I've learned my SO has no issues lying and hiding things so now I'm wondering if gay BFF was telling the truth. Since I believed SO, we decided to end the friendship with him.

These are pretty common pink flags; namely a straight spouse who has a gay best friend and a closeted husband/partner who starts surrounding himself with or showing a fascination with gay men and gay culture. (I call them "pink flags" rather than "red flags.") It's very common for the closeted man to have two faces: acting like a real queen/diva around gay men and then switching back to the macho homophobic man's man the next day. 

3. About a year past that incident (recently married) I felt something was off and went snooping. Found an odd message in his spam folder. Pulled phone records. The number had a few weeks of texts. I confronted too soon. He thought I knew more than that and cried. Said he messed up and swore he would go to church. After that he realized I knew nothing and suddenly forgot the rest (right).. I did find out that number was a woman. We went to counseling. We agreed to stay together.

Again, cheating is like an iceberg; 9/10ths remains under water. Gay or not this man clearly isn't very good at monogamy. 

4. About a year later. My SO was in the military. One night at a party one of the guys asked me about my SO's penis size. If he grows.. another guy made an odd remarks about my husband being gay. I asked SO he said guys just joke like that.

More pink flags: namely an ultra-macho career (military) and getting teased for being gay by other men. I'd ask his mother or older sister if he was ever teased as a child/teenager for being gay. 

5. A guy in the military didn't have a car and occasionally my SO gave him a ride. I suspected this guy of being gay or bi. Well one after noon we all 3 went grocery shopping. Well as we dropped the guy off and as my SO was bent over the guy grabbed my SO hips and thrust/humped. I said wtf. And SO claimed he is just weird like that. A bubble buster. Anyways it has since came out that he is gay. He came out if the closet.

More pink flags in my opinion. The closeted man will often befriend a lot of gay men before coming out. 

6. Now I'm going to tell this incident as it happened but I need to add a note at the bottom. From info I found out in the last few months. ** My SO had a guy friend he was buds with in the military. I liked the guy. He was married but his wife was in a LTR [long-term relationship]. Anyways about 5 years ago they got out of the military and this friend lived in a different state. Him and his wife were passing through our state and wanted to stop by. Well SO wanted to take (fake name) Jake out back behind the shed to show him our livestock. Well my young (3 daughter) wanted to go so I yelled out the door that's was sending kiddo out. Well kiddo goes running to the shed and Jake comes around the corner and picks kiddo up and takes kiddo slowly back to me. Well about 5 minutes later SO comes out from behind the shed. I asked what took so long and he said feeding the animals. Well that struck me as weird bc why didn't they let kiddo help. Well that night my SO was super pushy for sex. Like super unusual.i even told him then it was really weird how he was acting.

Did he and Jake have sex in the shed? Unknown. It's quite common for the closeted/questioning husband to panic after having sex with another man. Pushing to have sex with a wife just after hooking up with a man to prove his "heterosexuality" is a common emotional response, particularly if they got caught by your three-year-old. 

7. About 3-4 years ago we were going to a community craft fair. Well from what I know my SO didn't do those before me. Well when we pulled in he was like "let's look for the gutter booth" and I'm like what? He is like "yeah let's stop at the gutter repair booth". I'm like WTF there are no gutter people here? It's a CRAFT fair. He insisted that they are always at craft fairs. Well we start walking around and sure as shit there is a gutter repair booth. So bee lines for it ahead of me and starts talking to the guy. Well when I walk up the guy is very flamboyantly gay. They talk for a few minutes and then he gives my SO his number for repairs and we leave. I have never seen gutter repair people at any craft fair since.

For a self-identified straight man, he surrounds himself with a lot of gay men.  

8. 2 years ago he pulled out his phone and was in his contacts and there was a new guys name I didn't recognize and he behaved super weird. Now I know y'all might be like "could've been a woman". Since the first affair 10 years ago we have an open phone policy and I've some learned he is probably using a burner phone. Well around this time me and my SO have to go out of town at different points. And looking back it's clear he cheated but idk who. At two different points in the last 3 years I found women's sunglasses and a black wash cloth in our house. Flimsy excuses. At the time I guess I had no way to prove him lying. But obviously looking back...

Regardless of your husband's sexuality, he is clearly failing at monogamy. If you determine that monogamy is an integral part of marriage and you do not want an open marriage, then it's time to accept you simply define marriage differently and move on. With regards to "open phone" and "probationary-officer-like relationships", this rarely works because the cheating/closeted husband just buys a burner phone or he takes even greater precautions to conceal his hidden life from his warden/wife. A classic example is the straight spouse putting a tracker on her husband's phone, only to have him buy a burner phone, or switch his tracked phone off, or simply leave that phone in his car/hotel room when traveling on business.  

9. Well in March of this year we were at a friend's party. And my SO made two different inappropriate jokes. 1 (to a guy we didn't know) was talking about killing his chicken for food. And my SO was like are you going to choke the chicken? Then his high school best dude friend was super drunk (now let me pause for context and say that there was 2 gay couples there) and got to shouting about he tried to "to be with a dude once" and my SO was like "oh you have?" And lifts one leg up on the counter and like leans in like a lunge and wiggles his eyebrows. I just laugh it off but then the party moves outside. And the two gay couples start talking about all the married guys with kids we went to high school with being on Grindr. Well I go to look over at my SO thinking we would share that "we are about to get gossip" look but instead I got a deer in headlights look. Well then the friend looks dead at my SO and says " I guess we all have things we regret". And my SO looked so weird and behaved really tense after that. Well in the car ride I "confronted". And he denied. Was angry.

Ok so now he's likely on Grindr, a gay hook up app.

10. Well that was a Sunday. Monday I go to my BFF [best friend forever] and talk to her. Well that Tuesday he was super down in the dumps. Sent me song lyrics about about splitting up. Apologized for "not being the husband I need" and told me if I wanted to go my own way I could totally do it and no reason to be scared about not making it on my own. Note: so as I said major open phone policy. Well I recently have been going through his old phone. I had complete access then and now. Well I got to looking at messages between him and [shed friend] Jake and while out on military training (gone 3 months) And my SO sent him a text asking to send him the link they were talking about so he could send it to me. Well the link was "5 reasons a married man should try sex with a man in their life". SO never sent that to me. Then over the next few weeks Jake sent SO gay erotica with hilarious titles. Which SO did share with me. Well then my SO sent me a message right before he got home that he wanted to start trying prostate stuff. Which I was totally open to. Well their messages keep going and Jake calls my SO gay boy several times after that. Then in one text thread Jake said "look you are the one that was trying to buy dick picks today". And SO mentioned that I approved that. I don't know what they were talking about and don't remember. Well here and there more gay related stuff (I remember joking a one point saying they were gay). And my SO said to him "wife totally thinks we are gay together you'll have to heckle her about it".

This all sounds very "Brokeback Mountain", meaning two married husbands having sex. It's also very common for closeted/questioning husbands to ask straight wives to peg/penetrate them...what you refer to as "prostate stuff." 

11. Anyways. I've spoken to a PI [private investigator] and there is a lot of circumstantial evidence of affairs but he knows I'm suspicious so we are sitting back. But with that being said, are the above things normal?? Are these the things people mean when they say "the signs were there". He has been struggling with ED with me for several months now. But he didn't have any trouble when I let him play in my back door or when I used my fingers on him during a BJ. I don't even know how to get him to talk. I'm not sure I can.

I'd suggest listening to two podcast interviews I did with "Our Path"

S4 Ep 3: A “Narcissist in Recovery” Gets Real - OurPath
S5 Ep 5: A Former Closeted Narcissist in Recovery Answers Your Questions - OurPath

as we discuss a number of pink flags. 

Let's review the facts. Your husband: 

- Has a long history of cheating and has been caught cheating with women. 
- For years has demonstrated he's curious about gay men, gay culture, and gay sex. 
- Often chooses to befriend and/or hang around gay men. 
- Likely had a sexual "Brokeback Mountain"-like relationship with Jake.
- Is likely using Grindr, a gay hook up app. 
- Asked you to peg him (anal penetration) and is now having performance issues with you in the bedroom.  
 
As I shared in the above podcasts, when closeted husbands cheat, there are a number of common pink flags such as: body shaving (particularly chest, pubes, and *ss); a sudden obession with physical fitness to attract other gay men; and a sudden change in wardrobe, underwear, and appearance. Most closeted cheaters also travel a lot for work or perhaps even live in another city because this makes it easier to cheat. With regards to getting a cheating/closeted/questioning husband to open up, that's not going to happen unfortunately. Most of these men have been hiding their true sexualities for decades. In my experience, most of these men only come out to themselves and their families once separated/divorced from straight wives. And some very deeply closeted men often marry then divorce another woman before finally coming out.

I hope that helps my friend. Please feel free to post again if I haven't properly answered your questions. Be well! 

Not to take anything away from what Sean has to say, but straight men DO NOT find men sexually attractive. Period. We may be able to recognize when men are objectively attractive the same way you would identify that the sky is blue. It's an understanding of what people commonly consider attractive as an objective fact, not based on personal desire for straight men. 

Thank you for writing Masterly. For context, I've taken the liberty of reading and re-posting your original share: 

1. Hi, I walked in on my husband of 7 years yesterday sitting in front of his desk with one computer facing down towards his naked crotch with a live video going, and the other monitor broadcasting a Trans female cam model. I was previously unfamiliar with this type of platform that allows mutual broadcasting of sex acts in a live and participator chat + video mutual masturbation experience.

Alarming! This is sometimes referred to as "camming" or "cam sex." From what I understand, it's a huge industry. While closeted and shortly after coming out, I myself had a terrible porn addiction. Based on my knowledge about this addiction and based on 8+ years in recovery thanks to a 12-step program for porn addicts, I understand that there is a common progression. And that progression goes as follows: the younger porn addict steals glimpses online; then later starts watching full porn clips; and eventually spends hours each day watching. When the "high" of regular man/woman porn inevitably wears off, the porn addict starts watching more new and novel pornography. This is often when he/she might start watching trans porn or perhaps even porn outside of their sexuality. When that is no longer enough, the addict may start paying for cam sex and this inevitably leads to a real-world encounter. 

2. He has never expressed any interest in men of trans women before, or porn at all. I am open to porn, but to me this "live sex" experience crossed a line.

I agree that it's cheating. 

3. I also learned that he has spent more than 500$ (this year alone) sending "tips" to these strangers (he is usually very frugal and complained about spending 150$ on a nice dinner once a year for our anniversary). This means he has spent thousands of dollars on these "women" over the course of our marriage. 

I often write that cheating (and by extension "camming") are like icebergs, meaning that 9/10ths often remains under water. When anyone is caught, their first reaction is to both lie and minimize. So what's my point? I think you can take whatever figure he gives you and multiply it by nine (9). So if he says he's spent $500 this year, I reckon that figure is more likely $4500. 

4. My main concern is 1) is he homosexual or wanting to transition? He said he never watches "gay porn" but he admitted that the reason why he likes trans porn is that it is when the person has a penis, it is easier to see how the person is visibly turned in response to watching him. Being turned on by seeing a hard penis, seems to be, like a trait of a gay man or a straight woman, is it not?

Bingo! He's watching penises because he's attracted to penises. This means "not straight" in my opinion. 

5. He also admitted that he has been watching trans porn for over 10 years, since he was in grad school, which brings us to around 2013. Was trans porn even available back then?

Yes it was available back then...and even before then. His disclosure may confirm what I shared in #1, namely that the progression of porn addiction is as follows: young man watches vanilla porn; then more porn; then trans or gay porn to get the same "high"; then seeks out a real-work hook up.  

6. I'm sorry to sound naive, but it seems to me that one would have had to actively search out that kind of material back then, where as now it is accessible on regular "straight" porn sites. 

Without getting too graphic, there are multiple YouTube-like sites for sharing every conceivable type of (legal) pornography. These aggregate sites offer everything from straight porn to trans and gay porn.  

7. In case it helps with understanding my husband and his challenges -- in terms of his intimacy with me, it never has involved masturbation. He refuses to do it in front of me, he doesn't like head or blow jobs, our sex feels very transactional, not looking at one another, traditional positions, etc...

If your husband has a trans porn addiction, then he's attracted to trans people and a type of sex you simply cannot provide. And based on what you've shared, for the past 10 years he's imagined himself having sex with trans women who have penises. 

8. This is far more times than we ever had sex. In the last two years, we might have had sex once every 4-5 months, despite me being attractive and available and initiating sex often. He would often says he's too tired or not in the mood. It is clear to me that he never tried to cultivate any sexual intimacy or eroticism with me because he was fulfilled from the screen and therefore my sex life has suffered. 

Correct. 

9. I loved this man, I have a family with him, and I'm pregnant with twins, so I don't have time to wait around for answers. How can I get to the bottom of this? Is there any hope for our marriage?

I'm so sorry you're suffering. Question: has your husband apologized or even offered to stop with the trans cam sex? Please let me know. Here are some suggestions. I'd suggest you both define "marriage" and not by words but by acts/actions. If for you a marriage means things like honesty and intimacy, then clearly your husband is failing at both. If your husband defines marriage as little to no intimacy with his wife, cultivating his virtual trans garden, and spending all his money on cam sex, then it would appear you are incompatible. What follows are a few caveats based on my years of exchanges here: 

1. Couples Counselling: You are likely going to attempt some form of marital counselling to save your relationship. (We've all been there.) I'd suggest individual counselling for both of you as this will allow you to share your feelings with qualified professionals...before you start sharing in joint counselling sessions. 

2. The Honeymoon: After "discovery" most couples go through a three to four (3-4) month honeymoon phase. This is a short period of time during which the husband acts like her ideal partner to save the marriage. It rarely lasts unfortunately. 

3. The Warden Wife: Most "caught" husbands make a lot of promises to no longer cheat, cam, go on hook up apps etc. Scared, he thinks that has to say "Never again!" to save his marriage. His wife then tracks his online habits and often puts a tracker on his phone to monitor his location. This rarely keeps a dishonest, closeted, or cheating husband from doing what he's done for years (in this case camming). By your husband's own admission, he's been watching trans porn for a decade and I know from experience that he's likely not just going to stop "cold turkey." So you should be ready to find his new burner phone or a new laptop so you can't track him. And if he travels frequently for work, then he'll just continue camming/hiring trans sex workers when he's on the road. 

 In response to your last post: 

1. Thanks for offering to answer questions!🙏. My husband said something similar to what was stated above— that trans sex porn and trans live sex (specifically trans women with penises) — was only about masturbating and being turned on.

As I've shared in many previous posts, when a caught husband's mouth is moving, he's lying. 

2. He explained one physical encounter with a trans prostitute that was uncomfortable and unfulfilling.

Encounter is a term cheaters use to minimize f*cking someone other than their spouse. So by his own admission this is a lot more than just masturbation and arousal because he hired a prostitute. That is an entirely different level and likely required a lot of planning on his part. This is a red flag in my opinion but follows a common pattern: online exploration; chatting/camming; then a real-world encounter. Of course he said "I didn't like it" because what was he going to tell you: "It was THE BEST sex of my life!" Remember, when cheaters mouths are moving, they're lying.  

3. He still claims he loves me and is turned on by me as a straight woman, his wife and the mother of his children. He said “I know I’m not gay because when I walk into a room I’m attracted to the women and have always felt that way since I was a kid.”

Ok then if he's attracted to you he should be having sex with you. If he isn't, then his actions don't align with his words. 

4. Do gay men watch trans women porn?

Unknown. But let's not lose sight of the main issues here: your husband appears to be more attracted to trans women and having trans sex than he is with his wife. My questions are: is he going to stop with the cam/porn and start being the husband/father you deserve?  

5. Is my husband in denial about his sexuality?

Yes. Here is a more g-rated example. If a husband spends all of his time in your basement secretly clanging away with pots and pans, always comes upstairs with flour on his hands, and when you go snooping you find countless cookbooks, his cries of "I'm not interested in baking!" fall kinda flat. Similarly, if your husband has spent a decade watching, camming with, and hiring trans sex workers all while sexually neglecting you then his cries of "I'm attracted to you not them!" are bullsh*t. 

I hope that helps friend. Please feel free to post again if I haven't answered your questions. 

Last edited by Sean01 (March 1, 2023 4:32 am)