Thank you for writing Gloria and Blue. In reply to Blue's post, I'd suggest listening to a recent podcast/interview with "Our Path" during which I address a lot of the questions you've asked. Here is the link: 

https://ourpath.org/ourpath_podcast/s5-ep-5-a-former-closeted-narcissist-in-recovery-answers-your-questions.

And now in response to your post:

1. Hi Sean. My husband and I have been married for 32 years. Been together for 37 years. A little over a year ago, I discovered that my husband was on Grindr and had been meeting men to recieve blow jobs for at least 4 years. It appears that the infidelity started at least 10 years ago while he was crossdressing. At the time, he was dressing in lingerie and posting on Craigslist, with hopes of getting attention for his pics (his explanation). From what I can prove, at that time, he met with men (at least 2), tried on lingerie and had “light play”- his words. I have pics to prove that there were penises rubbing together at least. What went on between then and 4 years ago is unknown. 

I'm so very sorry that you've found yourself in this situation. You deserve better than a cheating, lying, and abusive husband. 

2. When Craigslist stopped allowing personal ads, he headed over to Grindr. His explanation was that he just wanted blowjobs and read an article that some straight men were seeking blow jobs from gay men that enjoy giving blow jobs. I think that is BS.

I agree that it's bullsh*t. 

3. He also told me that he didn’t want to mess around with women, because there was a higher chance of being caught or having drama.

Lie. 

4. He had a “Daddy” account and was very clear in his profile about what he wanted. He wanted blow jobs. I have about 250 screenshots of Grindr chats where he basically said this, along with some pretty disgusting dialogue. 

Cheaters always try to rationalize their lies/cheating...like saying "It was just blowjobs." It's just more bullsh*t and a distraction. But facts and photos don't lie my friend: your pathologically dishonest husband has been cheating on you with men, and hiding it, for years. He also no longer has sex with you, has lied to you, and cross dresses. You deserve better. 

5. Along with meeting men for blow jobs- at least 50 times in 4 years...

You seem to be parroting his focus on blowjobs, rather than the cheating/infidelity. I believe he is trying to distract you...or perhaps gaslight you. There is a common misconception among deeply closeted men, and particularly among deeply closeted religious men, that refusing to kiss other men and only receiving oral sex (or blowjobs as he says) means he's not gay. This is false because he's still engaging in sex WITH MEN. For me personally, his behaviour - gaslighting, minimization, and blame shifting - suggests you're in an abusive relationship. Cheating is cheating my friend. Cheating is also like an iceberg, meaning 9/10ths remains under water. What's my point? Few closeted men have just one application/profile and sex rarely just stops at the blowjob stage. So there is a good chance he's not only using Grindr, but also Hornet, Scruff etc. So I would take any number he throws at you then multiply by 9. I think we can also safely assume he's also having both oral and anal sex with these men, particularly younger men based on what you shared below. 

6. ...he continued his love for crossdressing. He insists that these are two separate things. I also found his fetlife account. He viewed many crossdressing and trans women’s accounts with pictures and videos. He “loved” hundred of trans pictures. He also had his own Crossdressing persona. He was into cages and sounding, and I also have those pictures. In his account, he stated how crossdressing was transformational, but when he discovered sounding, he found something that could reach places in himself that he never imagined and therefore took him to a place where he could serve. Wtf!! 

That's a lot. I can't speak to the crossdressing as I've never done it myself. Perhaps a member named Outofhiscloset (or "OOHC") can help with that. With regards to his kinks, something tells me he's doing more than just swapping blowjobs my friend as sounding suggests a level of sexual exploration that goes far beyond just oral. And why take his word for it? Clearly he's comfortable lying/hiding so of course he's capable of lying about having anal sex with these men as well. 

7. I will add that during his Grindr blowjob phase of the last 4 years...

Correction: during his "cheating" phase...and likely not just a phase as the term "phase" suggests a beginning then end. Your husband is a cheating, closeted, crossdresser. This isn't a phase. It's who he is and will likely be for the remainder of your relationship. Is this who you want as a partner? I hope that doesn't sting too much my friend. 

8. ...he didn’t touch me or approach me for sex. No sex in 3 plus years for us. I believe that he needed to vilify me and justify his thinking that it was “just a blow job”. I also believe that he got off on being a daddy and having younger men worship him. Have I mentioned that he took at test at the therapists that said he is a narcissist?

Narcissism: wow he's the whole package isn't he? Based on my own experience and based on the many exchanges I've had with straight spouses here, I reckon he started having anal sex when he stopped having sex with you. Closeted men do this for two reasons: first, they can no longer "pretend" they are interested in sex with women once they've experienced gay sex; and second, they don't want to take the risk of giving unsuspecting straight wives STDs/STIs. 

9. I will also add that he had 2 encounters with a 19 year old boy, that apparently had some pretty good skills. This, in itself, makes me so disgusted with him that I just about can’t see straight.  

Again, you're minimizing here. He didn't have "encounters" with a 19 year old gay man. He cheated on you and had gay sex with a 19 year old.

10. So, there’s more that I could talk about here. When he was discovered, he said, he just wanted a blow job. And a blow job is from start to finish. No oral and then vaginal sex. He wanted the full blow job, and apparently I don’t do that well enough. He told one guy that he wouldn’t be on Grindr if he didn’t get it at home. He told this guy that just about everyone is better than me, men and women.  

I think we can safely assume that over the past 10 years, he's gone far beyond just blow jobs but to do more would make him "gay" in his mind. As for the "I'm not getting it at home" excuse, this is a blame shift and it's complete horsesh*t. He's on Grindr, a gay sex app by the way, desperately trying to justify he's straight. It's bullsh*t. None of this is your fault my friend. Men seek out sex with other men because they're attracted to men. The common factor in his cheating is that he's always cheating with men...likely because he's not straight. If he's no longer having sex with you (his wife), no longer has sex with women, and now only has sex with men, this strongly suggests he's gay.   

11. Needless to say, I am extremely traumatized. The images that I have collected of him, which he valued so much that he had to save them in a secret folder in his phone, are haunting. He says he’s not gay. He’s not attracted to men. He wants to be married to me, not a man. He wants our life. He wants our family. He doesn’t want men. He just loves blow jobs so damn much and according to the therapist, my husband told him that those blowjobs were “incredible”. 

I'm so sorry for your trauma my friend. With regards to his excuses, I call this "sexually gay and yet emotionally straight." I'm assuming you're both 60+ years old so he's likely of a generation where he simply can't be gay in his mind because he sees being gay as perverted or disordered. But the photos, messages, and cheating history don't lie: he's having sex with men while no longer having sex with you. For me personally, that spells G-A-Y.  

12. Initially after I found out, we began having sex again. He was affectionate. I felt like I had something to prove. I think he was scared. I was scared. Those days are long gone. I can’t imagine having sex with him ever again. I am a very forgiving person. I’ve told him many times, I’m waiting for him to say certain things. Some are: “I can’t believe I ever had sexual relations with a man!” “What was I thinking?” He can’t do it, even if it means losing me.

A "honeymoon" phase after discovery/conflict is quite common. The closeted husband almost has to prove he's straight...to both himself and his wife. And this means having Viagra-fuelled sex with his long-neglected wife, often more sex than they've had their entire marriage. But it rarely lasts more than a few months, which I believe was your experience but please feel free to share more. 

13. We have a therapist that has been seeing mostly me. Everything the therapist has said has been true. I don’t think my husband really thinks he did much wrong. It wasn’t like it was with a woman, right? He has barely been to see the therapist, maybe 5 or 6 times on his own and I’ve had to beg him. I told him a week ago that if I don’t see a remarkable effort on his part to fix what ever is so unbelievably wrong with him, that I am leaving and I fully intend to honor this. He has a month.  

I reckon he doesn't see the need to meet with a therapist because he doesn't believe he's doing anything wrong. So what happens at the end of your deadline?  

14. Why am I still living in the same house with him? We are not in the same bed. Part of the reason that I’m still here is financial. If I leave, I will most certainly not come out on top in the divorce. He’s the main breadwinner. I will probably have to fold my business and take some menial job just to have insurance.

I'm starting to understand the financial barriers keeping many straight spouses trapped in their toxic marriages. Decoupling after decades of living together is hard, particularly when children are involved. 

15. So, what is my problem? I realize the situation that I find myself in is so messed up. Like I told my therapist, I can leave at any time. I can blow up his life at any time. I have more than enough evidence to out him to everyone, including our 3 young adult children. He doesn’t want that at all, of course.

There is a very good chance your tech-savvy kids already know dad's secrets.  

16. What am I struggling with? Why am I still here? Based on what he’s done- the lies, the gaslighting, the deceit, that was ongoing for years- I know that I could easily leave this marriage and no one would blame me. I’ve got to know. How does a self proclaimed straight man become sexually involved with men? What is he? Gay? Bi? As far as I know, a straight man doesn’t seek men for sexual favors. Does a straight man get horny talking and planning sexual encounters with men? He says it was kinky. I’ve talked a lot with my therapist about a mans arousal template. It’s obvious that men are now a part of his arousal templete. I feel so unbelievably rejected by the person that I picked to be my person. It’s heartbreaking.

I understand the need to label his sexuality but that rarely helps in these situations, particularly in the face of a cheating/closeted husband who denies that he's gay. Given what you've shared, your husband is: 

- A narcissist
- Dishonest
- A cheater (with only men) 
- A crossdresser
- No longer has sex with you

The older the husband, the coming out process is longer, more painful, and poses many challenges. These questions may help both of you cut through his lifelong denial about his true sexuality, namely: 

- What are the qualities of a good husband and is he meeting any of them? 
- If our daughter (assuming you have a daughter) had a husband who acted like this, how would we define his sexuality? 
- And would we urge our daughter to separate/divorce? 

Questions for him (some from Dr. Joe Kort's book, "Is my husband gay, straight or bisexual?"): 

- Was he ever teased in school for being different/gay? 
- Was there a sexual disconnect from the beginning of your relationship? 
- When he's at the beach or watching television, does he look at the men or the women? 
- How does he define "gay"? (Most deeply closeted men will reply "pervert" or "pedophile".) 
- Can two men actually love each other? 
- What would he do if your roles were reversed: meaning you were having oral sex with women for the past 10 years while refusing to have sex with him? 

Questions for you as his wife:

- Are blowjobs also sex? 
- Would you have left him had he been cheating with as many women? 
- Does saying, "It was only oral sex between me and these women" justify and/or minimize the cheating? 
- If your best female friend came to you saying her husband was doing the exact same things, namely cross dressing while hooking up with men for over a decade, what would you advise her to do? 

17. One thing I do know, what he has done is abusive.

100% agree! 

18. The fact that I am dealing with this subject matter at all, is abusive. Now is the time in my life that I should be enjoying my husband. We are no longer raising kids. We aren’t financially strapped like in years past. Ive spent a year running in circles. Nothing works. I cry. I scream. I feel like he is in denial, yet won’t humble himself. I’m so lost.

I'm so sorry you're suffering friend. I wouldn't hold my breath for an apology. I'd suggest using the "First Aid Kit" available on this forum. I'd also suggest calling "Our Path" for support and perhaps reaching out to fellow member Outofhiscloset to discuss the crossdressing. You might also consider creating your own thread here and posting regularly to work through the shock/trauma. Based on what you've shared above, it sounds like your proverbial roof is on fire, yet your husband somehow can't acknowledge it. It's not that he's a bad person, he's just disordered/warped to the point that he can cheat on you with men and still consider himself straight. This is: "black is white, up is down, night is day" thinking in my opinion. I'd stop looking to this toxic man for honesty and empathy because he simply lacks the capacity for either. And given the cross dressing and long history of cheating, it's unlikely he'll ever be the loving, caring, and honest husband you deserve. Perhaps it's time to get out before everything collapses. Given your husband's many emotional/psychological problems, I fail to see a positive future outcome and am so very sorry for both you and your children.  

I hope that helps in some way. Please feel free to reply. 

Last edited by Sean01 (October 6, 2022 3:49 am)

I’m 7 months pregnant and my fiancé swears he is bisexual and not gay so I’m having a hard time letting him go as I love him so much.

But how do I overcome the thought that he might change his mind once our baby is born. Is him saying he still loves me deep down a way to make me feel better to just calm me down as we are planning on living together for the first year in nee baby is born  or is that maybe the slightest chance that something could change.

No matter the orientation do you think once he sees his daughter his mind could change.

Thank you Sean for your reply.

It does still help to hear these things. I know that since this is so fresh from a few days ago that is why I keep holding on to he might change his mind cause I’m having a hard time To come  to terms with losing him after we had discussed these possibilities before ending up on this situation.

I know he will probably not change his mind about me but I would like him to want to be in his daughters life as we are still 2 very calm adults and agree we should co parent the best we can for our child.

 Sean- I hear everything you are saying. I am 57 and he is 60. 

 I definitely feel the need to define and label his sexuality! It’s my right as a wife of 32 years to know who the man is that I’ve been married to and sleeping next to. I’m pretty sure I need to hear it coming out of his mouth. I’ve often thought that he is so out of touch with who he is that he is unable to verbalize.  

What will I do if he hasn’t done anything towards addressing his many problems? I will be packing up and heading to my parents house. At the time of this post, he has a little over a week. I haven’t heard a word from him since I told him this was happening. I’m not holding my breath.

  Once recently, I had a conversation with him about my own sexuality. I will also add that we were swingers for several years in the past 10 years. It was my idea. He was all in. (I’ve since thought he was into it because he wanted to be in the room with naked men). Little did I know that he had met with his first crossdresser before then. We actually had a lot of fun. We met people that we are friends with to this day. It was fun parties and chatting and actually very little sex. He and I were having sex A LOT. One thing about the swinger world is that there are a lot of bi women. I’ve often thought some of them were lesbians married to men. I made the decision that if the opportunity presented itself, that I could kiss a girl or whatever, for the sake of fun and to get the guys excited. I did just that several times. It did absolutely nothing for me. So, in the conversation with him about my orientation, I explained to him what being attracted to someone is for me. I am attracted to men. Men only: their bodies, their smell, their masculinity.. all that good stuff. Anything that I did with a woman during that time, equates to a handshake. All he could say is, “I’m not attracted to men.” I said, “You ARE attracted to men, otherwise how in the world could repeatedly have sex with them?” Over and over. In my mind, a person doesn’t do something again and again for years, if they aren’t attracted to the people they are doing it with. Am I right? 

 I caught him on Sept 11, 2021, when he fell asleep with his Grindr app open. Along with about 250 screenshots that I have of his chats and pictures, I have an ongoing conversation he had with a crossdresser that’s ‘up for anything’ and the 19 year old. He was planning a weekend of fun with them in a hotel. He was planning to bring his toys and the crossdresser was bringing his ladies clothes and lingerie. He planned also to surprise the boy by dressing him up. The boy had expressed a mommy, daddy, son fantasy and my husband was all in to explore that.  

The man that was planning the above sex weekend, is not someone that I know and it’s devastating. He’s such a good father and good provider. He’s fun to be around. We are cyclists that ride about 80 miles every week. We’ve done that together for about 4 years. The fact that he is closeted is unthinkable! He acts as if the sex with men and all of the crap is just little side fun. “It was just a blowjob.” “I was just horny.” It had nothing to do with us and our family and our lives together.  

As for him being of a generation where being gay is unacceptable, I just don’t know. We met in retail and had lots of gay friends. I realize that of course he could say, “There’s nothing wrong with being gay, but I’m not gay!”  

My brain is unable to reconcile what has happened. I read somewhere that it’s like walking out into the street and being hit by an airplane. That’s exactly how I feel. There’s the infidelity and the crossdressing and the blowjobs and the boy and hotels and so much more. Its too much for me to handle.  

Thank you so much, Sean, for being so real with me. I’ve really needed to hear what you have to say. I’m looking at my husband through a different lens now.  

Last edited by Blue769 (October 11, 2022 10:10 am)

Thank you for posting Blue and Wonder Woman. In response to Blue's last post: 

1. Sean- I hear everything you are saying. I am 57 and he is 60. 

Understood. In my personal opinion, a 60 year-old closeted man has likely spent decades hiding, minimizing, and lying about his attraction to men. And why? When your husband was born, gay men were still considered mentally ill, a danger to children, and disordered. No amount of watching RuPaul's Drag Race can just deprogram from this negative perception of gay people. 

2. I definitely feel the need to define and label his sexuality! It’s my right as a wife of 32 years to know who the man is that I’ve been married to and sleeping next to. I’m pretty sure I need to hear it coming out of his mouth.

You won't. 

3. I’ve often thought that he is so out of touch with who he is that he is unable to verbalize.  

Correct! 

4. What will I do if he hasn’t done anything towards addressing his many problems? I will be packing up and heading to my parents house. At the time of this post, he has a little over a week. I haven’t heard a word from him since I told him this was happening. I’m not holding my breath.

Good luck. Get ready for his final "Hail Mary" to re-assert control over the relationship, namely: a health scare ("I have cancer!"); stories of childhood abuse (either true or false); or something creative like "I have a sex addiction." He will try to paint himself as the victim while also trying to make you think you are the only person who can save him. 

5. Once recently, I had a conversation with him about my own sexuality. I will also add that we were swingers for several years in the past 10 years. It was my idea. He was all in. (I’ve since thought he was into it because he wanted to be in the room with naked men).

This is more common than you'd think. If your husband is indeed a narcissist, something you disclosed in your first post on this thread, he likely made you feel like swinging was your idea. In fact, it was probably his idea and he manipulated you into believing swinging was the answer to your relationship issues. Fair comment?  

6. Little did I know that he had met with his first crossdresser before then. We actually had a lot of fun. We met people that we are friends with to this day. It was fun parties and chatting and actually very little sex. He and I were having sex A LOT. One thing about the swinger world is that there are a lot of bi women. I’ve often thought some of them were lesbians married to men. I made the decision that if the opportunity presented itself, that I could kiss a girl or whatever, for the sake of fun and to get the guys excited. I did just that several times. It did absolutely nothing for me. So, in the conversation with him about my orientation, I explained to him what being attracted to someone is for me. I am attracted to men. Men only: their bodies, their smell, their masculinity.. all that good stuff. Anything that I did with a woman during that time, equates to a handshake. All he could say is, “I’m not attracted to men.” I said, “You ARE attracted to men, otherwise how in the world could repeatedly have sex with them?” Over and over. In my mind, a person doesn’t do something again and again for years, if they aren’t attracted to the people they are doing it with. Am I right? 

Yes! This is a textbook example of gaslighting. Gaslighting is a tool used by personality disordered people to make you doubt reality. And a classic example is: "Yes I sleep with only men, cross dress, and hid all of this out of shame, but I'm still not gay." The example I used in my last podcast interview with "Our Path" is as follows: suddenly a husband is spending lots of time in the basement, without his wife, and when he comes back upstairs the wife notices he has flour on his hands. She asks why and he immediately gets defensive. Over the course of the next year, this behaviour repeats, she questions what he's doing "Are you baking downstairs?", and he continues to deny he's doing anything wrong. Inevitably, his wife starts looking around the basement for proof and finds all kinds of pots, pans, butter, and flour...everything well hidden of course. She then checks his computer and finds countless baking videos, websites, and chat messages on baking forums. She then of course confronts him about his baking hobby to which he angrily screams: "I'm not interested in baking!" This is a g-rated example of the closeted husband's broken logic.  The same absurdity applies to sex with men: if he isn't interested in having sex with men, why spend countless hours texting, chatting, web searching, and having sex with men? Men have sex with men because there is an attraction to men. Period. 

7. I caught him on Sept 11, 2021, when he fell asleep with his Grindr app open. Along with about 250 screenshots that I have of his chats and pictures, I have an ongoing conversation he had with a crossdresser that’s ‘up for anything’ and the 19 year old. He was planning a weekend of fun with them in a hotel.

For those who don't know, Grindr is a gay hook up app. First and foremost, I'm so sorry he's put you through all of this. As I did above with the "I don't like baking" example, a good way to test the warped logic of a gay/straight marriage is to change the players. I often ask straight spouses: how would you have reacted had this threesome been with two women rather than two men? Cheating is cheating in my opinion, regardless of gender. 

8. He was planning to bring his toys and the crossdresser was bringing his ladies clothes and lingerie. He planned also to surprise the boy by dressing him up. The boy had expressed a mommy, daddy, son fantasy and my husband was all in to explore that.  

I don't think many of us would define him as a good husband. 

9. The man that was planning the above sex weekend, is not someone that I know and it’s devastating. He’s such a good father and good provider. He’s fun to be around. We are cyclists that ride about 80 miles every week. We’ve done that together for about 4 years. The fact that he is closeted is unthinkable! He acts as if the sex with men and all of the crap is just little side fun. “It was just a blowjob.” “I was just horny.” It had nothing to do with us and our family and our lives together.  

Many closeted husbands are scarily comfortable living two lives: the seemingly perfect husband/father and then a crossdressing Grindr sex fiend online. I reckon your husband isn't a bad person per se, he's likely spent his entire life living a dual gay-straight existence and he's just better at it and more comfortable living this way than you. In fact, he's so comfortable at living this way, namely doing whatever he wants sexually without you, that he's trying to make you feel like you're f*cking up this perfect existence. 

10. As for him being of a generation where being gay is unacceptable, I just don’t know. We met in retail and had lots of gay friends. I realize that of course he could say, “There’s nothing wrong with being gay, but I’m not gay!”  

If I had a dollar for every time I heard some anti-gay Evangelical say, "I have gay friends" I'd be a millionnaire. There is a huge difference between tolerating gay people and defining yourself as gay. Closeted husbands have often created an entire exisitence around being the perfect, heterosexual husband/father. Suddenly coming out as gay at work, at the golf course, at church, and at the country club seems impossible. And straight husbands need their wives to keep up appearances so I wouldn't expect him to let you go quietly. 

11. My brain is unable to reconcile what has happened. I read somewhere that it’s like walking out into the street and being hit by an airplane. That’s exactly how I feel. There’s the infidelity and the crossdressing and the blowjobs and the boy and hotels and so much more. Its too much for me to handle.  

I'm so sorry he's putting you through all of this...while he appears to be perfectly fine with it no doubt. I'd encourage to you to speak to a mental health professional, perhaps with trauma therapy experience, contact "Our Path", and keep posting here to gain clarity while also getting support. 

12. Thank you so much, Sean, for being so real with me. I’ve really needed to hear what you have to say. I’m looking at my husband through a different lens now. 

That's very kind of you. If I'm reading all of this correctly, your husband wants to pretend nothing has changed. He's acting like there is nothing wrong with cross dressing, creeping Grindr, and f*cking men while no longer having sex with you (his wife). Wrong. This isn't love nor how any of us would define marriage. You deserve better. 

Please keep coming back and sharing your journey. I believe that for every straight spouse posting here, there are dozens, if not hundreds, of straight wives following your journeys. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (October 13, 2022 12:47 am)