Sean, usually when I read your posts I think “he’s being too hard on the husbands” but when we had the exchange above about the “two languages” - backing off of the idea that the inauthenticity and dishonestly that comes with the denial is somehow “corrupt” - I got a little stuck and wondered if you were in this case letting him off the hook too easily. I think where I am landing is that there is no simple characterization that is going to be possible. Yes, he’s a good guy. Yes, he acted very badly, caused a lot of pain. No, it’s not ok just because it is same-sex, wasn’t cheating with a woman (he seems to really believe this at some level? It’s where he’s trying to land right now,)  Poor him - but actually yes, poor him. 
     I had a very dear friend die of an AIDS related leukemia in the late 90s. Somehow that helps me keep all this stuff, my pain, in perspective. It is not as easy as it should be to be gay in this world, still. (I know, I’m describing an experience that isn’t my own.) But, I think my husband (successful, community leader type) could make a difference - he can totally “afford” to give up his “heterosexual privilege” and help make the world a better place. Be an example. But he doesn’t seem to have that courage, at least today.  Anyway, what I’m driving at is that I’m going to have to accept the loose ends - Bad guy/Good guy?  Yes.
   I’m going to move out on 9/1. Found a rental. In ten years we both will be a lot healthier if we split and face the world, and ourselves, on our own for a while. It’s going to be a difficult split after a 30 year marriage. But I am sure that it is the path to health, to light.
    I am a little afraid he’s going to be mean to me. After I’ve protected his reputation, kept his secrets, tried hard to understand (we worked with Joe Kort and two other therapists! Love Joe. But if my husband isn’t telling the truth, it’a a waste of time).  I told him I’ll see it as a double betrayal if he is mean, makes the split hard. Ugh. Still, I do see the light.
    I made another donation here to Our Path, grateful for you and for the forum. A huge help in a hard time.
    Rose

Thank you for writing. In reply: 

1. Sean, usually when I read your posts I think “he’s being too hard on the husbands” but when we had the exchange above about the “two languages” - backing off of the idea that the inauthenticity and dishonestly that comes with the denial is somehow “corrupt” - I got a little stuck and wondered if you were in this case letting him off the hook too easily.

It's certainly possible...or perhaps your own perspective is now changing? What I was perhaps maladroitly trying to express was this: when it comes to a closeted husband's sexuality, no matter what his age, he reverts back to being 'child caught with hand in cookie jar' when confronted about his sexuality. So what does this mean? Like a child with cookie crumbs on his face, the closeted husband will continue bald-face lying to his wife about cheating and gay porn. It's not that he's a bad person, per se, it's simply that he's totally incapable of being honest about his homosexuality. 

2. I think where I am landing is that there is no simple characterization that is going to be possible. Yes, he’s a good guy. Yes, he acted very badly, caused a lot of pain. No, it’s not ok just because it is same-sex, wasn’t cheating with a woman (he seems to really believe this at some level? It’s where he’s trying to land right now.)  Poor him - but actually yes, poor him. 
    
If he's using a lot of "it's just sex [with another man]" and/or "I'm not cheating because I don't want a relationship with a man", these are classic excuses closeted husbands use to explain away why he's f*cking men...something I discussed in a recent "Our Path" interview. In the closeted husband's mind, he's desperately clinging to his heterosexual existence by downplaying the fact that he's having sex with men. 

3. I had a very dear friend die of an AIDS related leukemia in the late 90s. Somehow that helps me keep all this stuff, my pain, in perspective.

Your pain and suffering matter. 

4. It is not as easy as it should be to be gay in this world, still...

And even harder being married to a closeted husband I reckon. 

5. (I know, I’m describing an experience that isn’t my own.) But, I think my husband (successful, community leader type) could make a difference - he can totally “afford” to give up his “heterosexual privilege” and help make the world a better place. Be an example. But he doesn’t seem to have that courage, at least today.  Anyway, what I’m driving at is that I’m going to have to accept the loose ends - Bad guy/Good guy?  Yes.
 
And you're making a difference by honestly sharing here. 

6. I’m going to move out on 9/1. Found a rental.

Sad, but also necessary in my opinion. 

7. In ten years we both will be a lot healthier if we split and face the world, and ourselves, on our own for a while. It’s going to be a difficult split after a 30 year marriage. But I am sure that it is the path to health, to light.
   
Well said. 

8. I am a little afraid he’s going to be mean to me. After I’ve protected his reputation, kept his secrets, tried hard to understand (we worked with Joe Kort and two other therapists! Love Joe. But if my husband isn’t telling the truth, it’a a waste of time).  I told him I’ll see it as a double betrayal if he is mean, makes the split hard. Ugh. Still, I do see the light.
   
Whether he is kind or cruel during your separation is totally up to him. Sadly it's more offen the latter (cruel) so I would be prepared to limit contact or only allow contact through a third party. 

9. I made another donation here to Our Path, grateful for you and for the forum. A huge help in a hard time. 

That's very generous Rose. Thank you. Good luck and please continue to share your story, either here or on your own thread. Be well! 

Thank you for writing Shh. In reply: 

1. Why do you think this sudden weight loss happens?

I believe you're referring to the "glow up" period when a gay-in-denial husband/boyfriend starts frantically losing weight, exercising, and changing his appearance to be more attractive to potential gay male partners. This is something I discussed at length in a recent podcast: 

S4 Ep 3: A “Narcissist in Recovery” Gets Real - OurPath

To listen to a closeted man's glow up being part of the coming out process, skip to 01H:15MIN:50SECS.  

2. I agree just wondered what your opinion was? My boyfriend used to weigh 30 pounds more about 6 months before meeting and started working out and got really skinny. 

As I discussed in the above podcast, the closeted male's perception of the gay community often comes from gay porn so he sometimes (wrongly) believes he has to be a tanned, handsome, buff, body shaved 20-something to attract a partner. So rapid weight loss, an obsessive interest in physical fitness, and a total change in appearance are signs that your husband/boyfriend might not be straight. 

I hope I've answered your questions but please feel free to write again. Be well! 

Thank you for writing Rose. In reply: 

1. Abuse by counselor: I know, you said beware but I just did it anyway. Ouch.

I don't remember any such warning, however, couples counselling rarely works with gay/straight marriages. 

2. I’ve loved my husband for more thank 30 years, first read every marriage book under the sun, trying to fix it, and then a lot of gay identity books (Isay, just now your Velvet Rage) trying to understand it: why would he stay married if he wanted to cheat? Could it have been a one-time identity crisis which I should forgive, if I were a kind person? Years of his not having orgasms (I asked, for years - was it me or was it the Zoloft?) yup, the dry kisses. And the dog in between us in bed. Not to mention the boyfriend/stalker with his pictures of himself snd my husband having sex. That he sent me over my social media accounts.
   
I have always maintained that sexual neglect and/or sexual starvation are abuse. 

3. But I do love my husband...

There comes a time in all gay/straight relationships when the straight spouse realizes she was truly in love with an abuser. Question: would you urge your daughter to stay with a husband who acted the same way? 

4. So I’ve been trying, still, to see if we could stay married. I think I mentioned, we even flew to Detroit to see Joe Kort.  My husband kept drinking a lot, and traveling a lot, but I thought we had a chance. Then I found a second burner cell - had found a first with that earlier affair. So I started moving to a split then we had to take care of our son, now in a somewhat better place. And turning back to our relationship , I agreed to yet another counselor.
   
We've all done this.

5. Who told me it was on me to forgive.

Bullsh*t. 

6. That my husband was sitting here now, and that was all that mattered. That I needed to turn my heart from hate.

Hate? That makes zero sense. 

7. That my life would be full of hate if I didn’t come back to this man who clearly wanted to make it work now.  That I should understand that there is flexibility in our desires, and that we sometime slip.

"Slip" is perhaps the understatement of the century. There is "slipping" like having a one-time fling on a business trip. Then there is your husband: multiple burner phones; midnight runs to boystown; decades without sex; and his boyfriend sending you explicit pictures. I'd qualify all of that as a "mudslide" of dishonesty. 

8. He asked if the situation were reversed, wouldn’t I want to be forgiven? Ugh. The situation would never be reversed, not because I can’t mess up royally, but because I could never sustain the lying. I’m actually bad at it - blunt to a fault, maybe.

This follows a common script. The couple goes to counselling, the wife appears stronger than him, the counsellor focuses completely on the gay husband's "sad sausage" issues (sexuality, abuse, etc), and then she's painted as the bad partner for not being supportive enough. It's complete horsesh*t. 

9. I am angry.

F*cking FINALLY!!!

10. There’s nothing more that I want right now than to have it all go away, to go crawl up around the dog next to my partner of more than 30 years and be comforted. But. It would be dangerous, Because, there are no magic wands and that’s not all of him, up there. Part of him is somewhere else, and that part is going to hurt me again. Or get drunk and hurt him. But it’s not going away, not this way.
     
You've reached that point in all gay/straight relationships where you have two choices: 1. continue riding his pink crazy-go-round; 2. save your dignity and sanity by getting the f*ck off and getting the f*ck out of this toxic, abusive, and soul-destroying relationship. 

11. And somehow, it’s on me?

The only person you're responsable to is yourself. It sounds like you're now at a point where you're ready to focus on your happiness, your mental health, and your own sanity. Anger can be a good thing because it helps us focus on facts & reality. You deserve better than a sexless, toxic, dishonest marriage to an alcoholic, cheating husband. 

Hope that doesn't sting too much my friend. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (July 31, 2022 7:09 am)

Thank you for the update LMM. In reply: 

1. Just a note here to say you were SO right. I’ve been using all my energy to get through the first 4 months being a full time single mom of 5, but kept noticing things as this horrible drama plays out. Things like my ex is doing all the wonderful Dad things he never once did while living here. And the kids eat it up, starved for his attention until now. He takes them out, brings dinner over, listens to them, emotionally connects - and then mentions to me sometimes how great this is that he can do that and go home to not have to deal with their constant annoying kid stuff and tantrums anymore for 90% of the time. It’s good for them, hard for me to watch.

I can imagine.

2. I noticed that he actually was never molested as he’s always claimed! Sometimes he’s very raw and open, so I asked about that. He described the 2 times and it was actually boys fooling around, not anything forced or abusive. I know you’ve mentioned this!! I listened without commenting but the script is changed in my eyes!

I hate to be wrong...but it's best to adopt a "believe but verify" approach when (future) gay (ex) husbands claim "sexual abuse made me gay." 

3. For the first few weeks we were going on walks to talk about how we were dealing with the separation, sometimes grocery shopping together or texting about things. Then once he said we were both abusive to each other. It turned into an argument because I got really angry at that.

Good. Anger means you're no longer buying into his bullsh*t. 

4. He was yelling that I abused him as much as he did me! I was quiet but so angry. I kept pushing him for examples...

Smart. 

5. ...which he said no one could think of on the spot. I rattled off a dozen of his abuses of me very quickly! He kept saying vague things about me being unreasonable.

In my opinion, there is quite a difference between being "unreasonable" and being an abuser. I reckon he's labelling you as "unreasonable" because you're no longer going along with his bullsh*t logic. 

6. Finally he said the abuse was that most days of our 17 year marriage, I showed an expression of terror and disgust at him, like I was afraid of him. It hurt him so deeply that he can never recover. It made him feel like a bad person. Can you believe that?!?!

Wow what an idiot. 

7. Since then I stopped doing extra things with him.

Well done. While you can't control him nor his emotions, you can limit or even cut off contact. The word I used when we last spoke was "radioactive." If you determine that your future ex-husband is radioactive then you're completely justified in limiting contact with him for your own safety and sanity. 

8. I see him when he comes for weekly dinner, usually go out to shop and run errands then. This was completely crazy, him having to also be a victim. Emotions are not abusive to other people! Me being scared of him was fitting for how he constantly mistreated and manipulated me!

This broken logic smacks of, "You made me feel badly just after I punched you in the face." I reckon your future ex-husband can start hosting the kids in his own space for weekly dinners. 

9. You said that he will probably lie and act like a victim. You told me to take his words and hold them lightly as lies or partial truths until I can see what’s true. You didn’t share my hopes of a really harmonious separation where he’s now miraculously healed of being abusive or manipulative.

Sorry if that hurt but my predictions sadly appear to have come true. 

10. I took all of that to heart because it seemed likely. Still, I really, really wanted him to be a good person who’s trustworthy now. But I can see he’s a along way off.

Straight wives can't just will their husbands to be better people, nor to act more sanely. I don't believe closeted husbands are bad people per se, but I do believe we are often so mentally and emotionally impaired that we try to distort reality...not unlike your abusive husband convincing himself that you abused him. So what's my point? I would recommend you consult with your therapist on how to limit and/or cut off contact with your future ex-husband, perhaps by letting dad take the kids in his space for family meals/visits and also having a trusted family member handle the child transfers. This will give you the necessary time and distance to heal from what was apparently a very toxic, abusive, and damaging relationship. 

I hope that helps in some way my friend. Be well!