Sean, per your question on why God is male. I don't know, all I know is the Bible always refers to Him as being Male. I have to take it on faith that He is male. Mankind has no way of knowing what God is except for what the bible tells us that He is. It's a step of faith and believing the bible is also a step of faith. You believe or you don't. It's that simple. 

Sean you asked for an explanation on why homosexuality is wrong and why God calls it an abomination within the bible. I did answer your question in the nicest way possible, plus giving you bits on church/historical history on acceptable canon or non-canon. Which you can verify for yourself. For me it was a discussion, nothing more. All I was doing was imparting information to you on what I'd read in the bible and in no way was I attacking any gay person. If you chose to take it as such that is your problem. If you wish to keep your gay card for attacking Christians for their faith and beliefs then so be it. Here is my other cheek for you to slap, if it makes you feel better.

As I showed with the canon text there really isn't an explanation on why it's an a abomination to God within the official canon - except that is an abomination (type of sin) with no more explanation than what is given within the ancient text. The bible only contains a few verses in each testament on this subject. Never telling us why? I don't know why that is, except something might have been left out from the Council of Nicaea is the only point I can make to address this issue. A person has to go to other references outside of official canon such as the Book of Enoch (non-canon) which was my whole point to answer your question. Many within the church will not agree with or accept because the Book of Enoch is not official canon. According to this book all manner of evilness and anything against God and His laws on what sin is, was taught to mankind by the fallen angels which I gave you examples of. Period. The only explanation given anywhere in ancient text on why it is an abomination (that I'm aware of). You'd have to address this question to a member of the clergy and all will have differing opinions per factions, dogma, and doctrine. I'm just a lay person. I answered your question, as honestly as possible and pointed you to reading material if you wished to read for yourself to draw your own conclusions. This is all that I was doing was answering your question and I got attacked for it? Seriously!

If you haven't read The Book of Revelations or all of the prophecy books, you're not going to get it. I believe I also clearly stated this. I've been a student of the bible and bible prophecy for over fifty years and there are still things in the bible which are still unclear to me. Your a non-believer per you own admission. So why not just accept a Christian's views on their faith according to what the bible says? Accept their belief this is what they believe, shake the dust off your feet and move on. Even Satan can quote scripture which is obvious when he tempts Jesus Christ in the wilderness, stated in the The Book of Matthew. The prophecy books of the bible tells us all manner of evilness will return to the earth, before the end, and open homosexuality is one of those things to occur and don't be afraid when these things start to happen, just be aware and accept them. As a Christian you won't be able to fight against the tide. You will have to die for your faith in some circumstances so says the bible. I can't help what is written in the official canon, nor can anyone else, it's written the way it is. It just is. If you add to or take away from the ancient text this is also a sin, which the bible clearly states in the Book of Revelations. I think this warning is given in another book but can't remember which it is. This book also states that anyone who reads and understands this book is in for a special blessing. Gays being out in the open just like in ancient times and especially during the Days of Noah is bible prophecy even if you don't agree, since your not a student of bible prophecy - how could you agree, you can't and nothing I say will change your view or belief which is your right to have. You have to gain the knowledge for yourself, you have to want to gain it. I just pointed you where to look if you desire. Everything I stated is verifiable. If you've got a problem with it, take it up with God, not me, I didn't write the bible so back off. I just read the bible and can only tell you what it says and why my views are the way they are because of my faith. Yet, you seem to feel it is your right to sit in judgment of me. You say you don't believe in God...fine. I accept this about you and don't think any less of you for it. I do believe in God and what the bible says. Yet, I'm not afforded the same respect when I offer my own personal opinion and why I offer them based on my religious faith and just because you don't like what I had to say gives you the right to attack my religious views? If your not going to like the possible answer then don't ask the question. Gay people's hypocrisy truly knows no bounds. Since I'm not gay, then I'm not acceptable even though you preach a message of acceptance. You can cherry pick all you like, but the ancient canon does speak out against homosexuality and calls it a sin, even if the LGBQT doesn't like it and I don't care if this stings. It's not Christians they need to address this question too, it's God Himself. I you don't believe than I guess you're SOL then. Which He answered with the Holy Scriptures. Take it or leave it, apply it to your life or don't. No skin off my nose what you decide. The LGBTQ can't attack God on this issue personally, so they attack Christians instead for their own personal views and acceptance of God's word, yet persons such as yourself beg for acceptance!  Uh huh! You say you want an open dialogue then reject my views. At least I tried to have a dialogue, that's more than alot of hard core members of the Christian right will do. They won't even discuss it and reject any discussion. I don't believe in that way. Per voting, I'm a moderate democrat. I don't swing fully to the left or right. I'm smack in the middle being liberal on some views more than others. I'm all for the separation of church and state. According to my Ancient Civilization Professor, Jesus Christ is the first person in recorded history to make the argument for separation of church and state. I try not to allow my christian views in the voting booth and only make my decisions per our constitution and how laws currently read or use common sense for the good for all. 

What is wrong with hating the sin and not the sinner? Not a thing from my point-of-view. Your sarcasm came through loud and clear. Who are you really pissed at, me or your former wife for the pray the gay away? Don't take it out on me, I stated clearly. Which I clearly stated I don't believe in, because no way will this happen if you truly believe your gay. Isn't this really what the LGBTQ is asking for - to be loved and accepted for who they are? Funny, this is exactly what Romans Chapter 6 is saying and what I've been saying all along. Ironically, the LGBTQ is given an out in the bible which is Romans Chapter 6! What I find funny is that they're given a way out to live how they want and right out of the the bible and they never take it! No, they keep on arguing with their own hate speech attacking Christians for their views when most of them don't understand the Book of Romans. In paraphrasing, Romans says to let people live how they see fit and leave their judgement up to God. Isn't this what you want? It doesn't get any more clear than that, live how you want. All gays want to live openly gay, go for it. The bible says you can. Surprise, surprise! God said in the Book of Romans, live how you want, just remember according to Him, not me, there will be a payday. He warned you'll pay a price for your life choices. Third all wrong doers which also includes me and you is to be judged by God alone. These are not my words, these are God's words. We are to take comfort in those words regardless of our sins. God alone will judge. Not another human being who you came across and had odds with will ever be allowed to judge and Jesus Christ will offer His Father His opinion on your life from my understanding of the word of God. Your arguing for the sake of arguing and I guess I am too. You're really good at cherry picking scriptures so why not read Romans Chapter 6? Anyone can go through the bible and cherry pick for or against any argument and use this to validate their beliefs. Even atheist, they do it every day which I find ironic. If you don't believe in God why use his book to prove your own arguments for or against? Never made sense to me. The bible says three things on homosexuality. If you acknowledge yourself as a gay person and sleep with the SS, then go for it. Second the bible tells you in the Book of Romans, if this is what you want, and desire, go for it, nobody is to tell another yay or nay about another person's life. The third thing, your choices in life will be judged by God alone. Everyone's opinion on the issue of homosexuality is irrelevant which is what God is saying to all in the Book of Romans. It only matters what He thinks. The only other thing relevant is that everyone acknowledge Jesus Christ as God's son and never defame the Holy Spirit. If you do this it doesn't matter what anyone thinks on how an individual lives their life. These are my personal interpretations of those scriptures. Take it or leave it.   

The fact is, there will always be members of the Christian faith who will always believe it is a sin; because, the bible says that it is. Even if the LGBTQ can't accept the official canon. It's a sin according to God from a religious argument. Period. Accept it or don't accept His word on the matter, that is your free choice and your free will the same as it is mine. For me it is a sin and choice; I stated my position clearly and I don't care if you like my views on the subject matter and can't abide my values. Since you feel the need to call me out me out for my sin go right ahead. I'll turn the other cheek and also point out the LGBTQ is really good at talking the talking and not walking the walk. They will attack anyone with a differing viewpoint. They are really good at begging for acceptance but they're not very good at practicing what they preach, which is acceptance of all views, especially if anyone's view differs from their own. Which you proved by verbally attacking me for my views in this thread. Then they wonder why people still won't accept them. God's opinion matters more to me than yours. My opinion shouldn't matter to you and you're the one who got uppity about it. I wasn't coming at you this way at all, I was not preaching at you. All I did was share with you what I believe and why, nothing more. I was just stating my opinion and views which is being a Christian and standing up for God's written word.  According to you is one I nor your former wife should be allowed to have. I guess because you're a man and gay that you are allowed. According to most gay men that I've read in their own words, women are only allowed to be fashion diva's and air heads or brood mothers. According to gay men women are irrelevant. At least this is the way most of them come off to me, not all of them but most of them. Why is it that many gay men can't stand women being in a gay bar and why do they hate lesbians so much? Many lesbians say they get crappy service in gay bars for no other reason than they have a vagina. So, they get watered down drinks to get them to leave. Why is that? Especially if the bartender is gay himself? What difference does it make? They are a paying customer just like their male counterparts. 
  
I don't care if there are gays within the Christian church, doesn't matter, the official canon says it's a sin. Period. Just because there are gay members within the Christian churches has no baring on God's written word, that is a fallible argument whether gays attend church or not. Doesn't prove anything. All it does prove is that they attend church. They sat their skinny or fat behinds on a wooden seat for so many hours on a given day. Big deal. A GID man can screw a man on Saturday night after picking a fight to get out of the house with is wife and attend church with her on Sunday morning. Still makes him a liar, cheater, and a hypocrite in God's eyes even if he does attend church. Just because a person sits in a church doesn't mean a bloody thing. My mom and dad told me all of my life alot of people go to church to hide their dirty mindedness, and evil doings. I used to think my parents were full of crap for stating this, now nearing sixty myself, I find they told me true. 

Christians also have the right to teach their children how they see fit here in the United States per our constitutional first amendment rights in regards to our religious views even if the LGBTQ doesn't like it, too bad, get over it, yeah I don't care if this stings. Ironically, you said this yourself in a post above, which you contradicted with your attack on me for expressing my views. If I'm a bigot according to you then I guess this makes you a hypocrite. How can anyone take your advice honestly in this thread? 

I'd have been happy with civil unions but I didn't get my way and preserved the sanctimony of the religious ceremony within the church for marriage. The Supreme Court might have told me I have to accept it where civilian law dictates. Religious laws - God's law says I don't have to if I so chose and there isn't a thing any gay person can do about it. If gays want me to accept their beliefs then they have to accept mine and who better understands inequality than a gay person beside a black person. Everyone faces discrimination in their life, in some way shape or form, some people just don't feel the need to share it. 

Fact is, if the governments had keep their greedy noses out of everyone's pockets needing a marriage license this fight never would have happen in our society, which is my personal opinion. People could have married who they wanted in front of a judge or whatever ceremony they wanted and who they wanted to marry, lived how they wanted regardless of what the church or any Christians believe. Yet they did need to fight for the right to marry on spousal benefits alone, which wasn't right for them to be denied. Yeah, this is me a person who doesn't believe in homosexuality for my own personal life due to my religious beliefs. It's not my fault or anyone else's fault because gays in our day and time fought for their rights of marriage and won. In so doing they joined the ranks of the rest of us poor saps, you get the fun of divorcing as gay couples now too, and not just from str8 spouses. It's not my fault it wasn't done in the past nor is it yours or any other gay persons. Its just the times we currently live in.  

All churches have to have proof of a marriage license to marry anyone because of that license. It's up to individual churches if they allow gay marriages within their churches and according to their doctrine for a religious ceremony. The state issued marriage licenses always was the whole sticking point. Marriage vows within the church would have stayed a private religious ceremony and marriage outside of the church would have just been a marriage between two consenting adults with no religious connotations which would be a state sanctioned marriage as any marriage is done with a Judge or Justice of the Peace, a ship captain. Anyone given the authority by the to states to marry someone here in the U.S. That piece of paper and the money to pay for it was the entire problem. Why didn't the Supreme Court say it was unlawful for states to ask for a marriage license and the money handed over to pay for such a license to be married? Yet, the Supreme Court upheld the rights of all to marry per our constitution which does grant anyone this right regardless of religious views, the court according to our civil laws ruled correctly and continued to line the federal/state/county/city governments pockets here in the U.S. which caused the whole problem to begin with. Stop and think about that and take the religion out of it and put it were it squarely belongs in a government issue right to rule context in setting and defining laws. Which 'we the people' gave our government the right to do by ratifying our federal and state constitutions by our democratic society way back in the day. Which is unique in all the world. Our system has cracks in it; yet, it's better than any other countries in the world today. What do I know, I'm a biased American when it comes to America.

I'm afraid the LGBTQ being cry babies about it isn't going to change my religious views on the subject, nor anyone else who believes that homosexuality is a sin. For me, until science can prove the gay gene exists, which they have not done - even though the LGBTQ tries to force this argument by saying a person is born/wired this way doesn't make it so. As far as I'm concern it's a personal agenda and nothing more. Let me repeat that, there is no scientific proof as of this date and time to prove any one is gay or not gay. There is no conclusive proof out of the 26 studies to date done by various universities worldwide nor any medical test to prove one way or the other. Until the scientific community proves that it does exist and is in 100% agreement worldwide then and only then will I believe this argument. I'll have no choice but to believe that men and women are born gay. If it happens in my lifetime then I'll have to rethink what the bible says regarding homosexuality. I won't have a choice at that time. Until then my views won't change, for me it's a choice and rejection of God's word. If that makes me a bigot then so be it. I'd much rather be a bigot then a hypocrite. At least with a bigot you know where you stand, with a hypocrite you don't. 

If a person wants to teach their children that homosexuality is a sin, then that is their right. If a person wants to teach their children it's not a sin, that is their right. If parents chose to teach their kids that God doesn't exit, that is their right even though I disagree and I have to respect their right to do so. It was my right to teach my son that God exists and is real and the bible is His word. 

I promise you I fully exercised my freedom on religion and taught my son it is a sin against God and I'm proud of it and I don't give a flying fig if you approve or not. He is a fully grown man with his own mind and his own reasoning, at least he isn't a cry baby in accepting differing points of view that are different from his own. He'd laugh at this discussion and tell me I'm wasting my time in even offering my opinion. He'll say, mom they don't care and don't want to hear how they live is a sin just because the bible says so. My son is able to reject my teachings or those of the church if he so chooses and sometimes he does. He respects my opinions and I respect his and we just agree we disagree. One thing I did teach my son was to form his own opinions and think for himself and gain his own knowledge in all things. Just because I'm his mother doesn't mean he has to accept my beliefs, my son knows he doesn't have too accept my beliefs for I told him so. I taught my son to be a debater and not take anyone's word on anything. Study the issue and form your own opinion and not what my generation says on everything because your life most likely will finish in a different time, place, historical context from mine. This is what being an adult is, accept your childhood teachings or reject them. This is what growing up is all about and as parents when our children reach adulthood we might not like what they have to say because they become their own person and not just our child any longer. I never forced him to go to church except when he was small. When he got into his late teens, I never forced the issue. I allowed him to become the man he wanted to be. Attend church if he wants too and if he doesn't that is fine too, he choose not to attend church. He knows what the bible says on homosexuality. He was all for gays to marry and he said it wasn't right regardless of what the bible says in accordance with civilian law. Ironically, something we both agreed on. 



 

Laurence wrote:

Choosing to be gay or born that way ?

This is a hot topic.  One that I've seen all over the internet.. not just our group.  

I don't think scientists have proven anything so there is no commonly accepted black and white truth here, so it is something that people can certainly form their own beliefs on and we may certainly disagree with each other.  

My opinion, after much research and many discussions with people who are gay, and my observation of my ex, whom I knew better than anyone, is that there are two aspects at play here.  I think it's important to differentiate between these two things.   1.)  Same Sex Attraction   2.)  The physical act of sex. 

When we consider if being gay is something people are born with or a choice they make, I think we need to differentiate between the two aspects.  

My opinion (that of a straight man) is that a person's attraction is hard-wired.  It is not a choice.  I think if given a choice, everyone would choose to be what society accepts as "normal".  I didn't chose to be straight.. I just am.  I don't think a man who is attracted to other men made the choice to be attracted to men over women.. it's just how they are wired.  So i don't think attraction is a choice. 

I do think that acting on that attraction is a choice.  Everyone has a choice in how they act.  A straight man is attracted to a woman and makes the choice to pursue that woman.  A gay man is attracted to a man and makes the choice to pursue that man.  Str8 or gay.. we can all chose to forego that attraction and live a life of celibacy, or we could even make the choice to pursue someone of the sex opposite of whom we are attracted to.  That is truly a choice.   This is the part that intertwines with religous beliefs and makes this challenging.  If you believe in the Bible and you agree that it says it's a sin, then you would agree that it would be best for the person to abstain from sex and chose a life of celibacy.  *this reflects my religious belief.. but I'm not sure that's a choice I'd be able to make.  I can't imagine how hard that would be.  

So how do we define "being gay"?   Is it the attraction or is it the action?  

This matters..  a lot!

It's easy to say that a person is bad or a sinner or however you want to label them if you are analyzing something that is clearly a choice they have made.  But its a whole lot harder to judge a person for something they have no choice over..  for something they were born with. 
 

I have been helped so much by reading the comments from Sean's posts from the beginning. He has been honest in helping us understand being gay from his own point of view. Helping we who are the straight spouse understand the gay man. We are dealing with the lies,gas lighting and the awful feelings of betrayal.
I am so disappointed that Emerald has taken this so far with her religious beliefs, I didn't come here  to read Sean's posts to get a bible lesson.
If you are born gay and want to be with a man,I am fine with that. We should be allowed to love whom ever we want. It is the betrayal  that is hurting me so much after 30 years with a gay man.

My husband is registered on a gay hook up site, goes to gay saunas and has occasional massages by gay men who might masturbate him but he claims he is 70% heterosexual and 30% bisexual and is definitely not gay. He does not indulge in sex with these men. We have been married for 30 years, have had a good relationship, with him always wanting more sex than me. Is it possible that what he is saying is true or has he just not got round to accepting the fact that he is gay. I just don't know what to do or believe? I would value Sean's opinion on this.

Ugh..  this is not the direction I hoped this would go. 

Religion is very important to everyone.. whether they chose an organized religion or chose to be agnostic, it's still a personal decision and had great importance to each of us.  As such, it's an important part of the healing process as we all recover from our broken relationships and disrupted lives.  So, I think it's reasonable and valuable to allow religion to be discussed on this board.    As long as it remains constructive!   

Please, let's remember that we are here to help each other heal and regain strength and move forward to find happiness in our lives.  That is the purpose of this forum.  It is not a place to argue over ideology and insult each other. 

Emerald, please note that JK deleted her post pro-actively as she realized it was leading this thread off-topic.  

Again, I'm not in favor of censorship..  but I would like to see this conversation turn back on topic and get back to the goal of allowing a place for forum members to have a constructive conversation with a man who can offer a helpful perspective on what it's like to be a Gay man in a hetero marriage.

Can we please back off the religious topic?  I don't want to see hurt feelings or have people leave the forum because of this.