Posted by OutofHisCloset  July 12, 2021 9:43 am | #11 |
Cortiz,
A couple of comments on other aspects you are experiencing that I also experienced:
Defining and redefining what they "are" is a reflection of the confusion they themselves feel. My ex did this, too. He was at various times "bringing into being the little girl and woman he wasn't allowed to become," one woman, multiple women, multiple women and men. At every stop at every definition, he saw it as definitive and expected me to accept that explanation, but he could change his idea at the drop of the hat; he would also say one thing, then say another while still holding on, inside, to the original idea. I see this as a reflection of the incoherence of their thinking, and evidence of disordered thought. If you see in in that way, instead of trying to accept it as the expression of logically arrived at conclusions, you will be less whipped around. It is, as you say, "alien psychology"; my father was bipolar, with paranoid delusions, and when my trans-identified ex would speak about himself, I got a very strong feeling of familiarity. He seemed both irrational and delusional to me, and trying to engage him as if he weren't was an exercise in frustration.
The going back and forth on what they "might" do or "would like" to do, but changing their minds, eg, your wife's thinking she might have her breasts lopped off, or might not. My ex originally told me he wanted to have his testicles removed and take cross-sex hormones. Later he walked that back to "I still want that; it's the ideal, but I have currently decided not to make irreversible changes, not least because it would affect our relationship. But I can't promise I won't change my mind in the future."
I found that I could not live in this state of contingency. It's crazy-making, like waiting for the other shoe to drop. How do you make plans for the future when your partner has said that at any time they may decide to pull the rug out from under the status quo? That is not a reasonable expectation on their part, nor on ours. Plus not knowing what our partners may choose to do, but knowing that they have arrogated that choice to themselves alone, and feel entitled to expect us to go along with it should they change their minds, keeps us in a state of reactive uncertainty, on the back foot, defensive, and with no firm ground under us. It's no way to live, and not a good state in which to conduct a marriage.
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Posted by Ellexoh_nz July 12, 2021 2:13 pm | #12 |
Cortiz108 wrote:
.....I hope I can even figure out what I want in my life. I know it's peace, stability, connection, time for my work, freedom.... But the fact that this is all going on at the same time as these crazy international moves makes it even more difficult. I'm redefining my life in pretty much every way, yet again, and may be giving up on a few dreams all at once.
"emotionally disappointing" says it all, and our spouses tend to ignore our disappointment. I don't talk to my partner about my own disappointment anymore, I'm 4 and a half years into the Mindfuck and have accepted he's not the man I knew.
JohnDinWyo words "The first thing to accept is that the person you started the relationship 10 years ago, has grown and its probably completely different from what they are now. " was the path I took, and although my partner hasn't totally changed I no longer deny the hurt he caused me while he went through a few months of personal introspection (and that's my own words, he would never use them) that led him to keep secrets, gaslight me, 'be somebody else'.
I guess you can say that *I* have changed too. It takes a self-awareness to see, admit and accept what is happening when the person you love tries to hide who they really are.
I no longer expect the man...who I've spent more of my life with than without...to be who he used to be.
Elle
KIA KAHA
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Posted by Ordinary guy July 13, 2021 4:39 am | #13 |
Hi Cortez,
First things first. Are you at liberty to divulge the name country in which you reside?
One would hope that professional medical experts would not undertake any drastic surgical interventions when the subject is plainly suffering mental health issues. These should be fully resolved before further actions can be outlined with a view to a permanent resolution. You have stated clearly that one of her/their frustrations seems to be that you "cannot love her for who she/they is/are now". But you did, didn't you? The woman that you fell in love with has changed into someone you have described as someone you are no longer attracted to. You should not see this as your problem to try and resolve, you have effectively lost your original partner and now are facing your own moral dilemma regarding whether or not your feelings towards them are valid. This common dilemma appears frequently in the straight spouses here. You have said that the overall change toward stereotypical masculine behaviour and appearance is not attractive to you. That is the key element with which should guide your own decision making. You describe yourself as being tolerant and accepting, which is obvious in the fact that you have remained steadfastly loyal and supportive with your partner. Many people would have simply walked away from this situation along time ago because they were not equipped to deal with it. Don't ever beat yourself up Cortez, you are an example of what true humanity should be. It is difficult sometimes to find solutions that meet the requirements of both parties in these situations. One person seems to "win" while the other seems to "lose", and in your situation it seems that the in order for you to maintain the relationship the acquiescence required falls on you. What would your future self counsel you to do now? Please try to bear your own future happiness in mind Cortez. You certainly don't want to become resentful further down the line as that feeling would be an anathema to you.
The issue of her currently identifying as non-binary seems a little troubling to me in that she seems to actually identify more with a masculine identity. Non-binary people on the whole identify with an innate androgyny that leaves them with an ambiguous self identification. The decision to remove the breasts would also suggest that a gender identity decision has been made on some level. This is a very confusing time for your partner, and I would suggest that it represents a case that should actually be referred to a psychiatrist more than a therapist. My suggestion is that you may be dealing with a transgender man as a sexual identity. Where the waters are being muddied is in the sexual orientation of your partner. Her/Their/His aversion to having you as a heterosexual man touch her/their/his breasts could be a key to unlock the identification issue. Would she/they/he feel the same if a woman were touching the breasts?
There has been significant discussion here around the self-identification of a bi-sexual identity as a psychological stopover on the journey to a realised gay identity. It could be that the same psychological phenomenon is being played out here. It could well be that the non-binary identification is a stopover in the transition to a male identity. I think that most people who firmly identify as non-binary have essentially always been just that way all through their lives. It should not show up as a sudden shift in the same way that a sexual orientation can. Your partner clearly seems to be more comfortable identifying as masculine by dint of her actions.
Never forget to take your own feelings into account. Allow yourself to feel what you want. You will be better able to support your partner In whatever the situation is from a position of detached rationality. I mean we all want to live the happiest lives we can. That applies to both the spouses in all of the situations we have to live with. You cannot resolve this problem until you have identified exactly what the problem is. Please remember that you are a good person Cortez, a good man. Your partner is very lucky to have someone with your moral compass in their life.
4883 days...
Many thanks for the kind words, and the wise perspectives. I'm in Europe in a country where we don't speak the language. If she decides to pursue the surgery, it wouldn't be until we're back in the US, which will be before the end of the year. And yes, I wonder if she'd even be give the green light given her CPTSD. I'm guessing it would be long process to get to that point. She did just find a new therapist back at "home" and has started zoom sessions with "them" - she found a nonbinary therapist, which is great for her. I'm not sure if she's a psychiatrist or not - and I'm not even going to ask because that in itself is an invitation to an argument. And saying that makes me think how sad, that a married person can't talk to his spouse about something like that.
She doesn't even see her "manliness" as I do, and seems to just think it's a matter of wanting short hair. When I've tried to explain it, the changes I see in her. the conversation keeps getting sidetracked to some other emotive issue so I never quite get there. Plus, it's sometimes impossible because if I even use terms like "masculine" of "feminine" I'm challenged to define them, and am "trans-splained" about how those categories are just social constructs. She also insists that she hasn't changed at all sometimes; though other times it's "there's nothing wrong with change."
She definitely sees herself as non-binary. At one point she said that the last time really felt like herself was before she had breasts - that she didn't want them, and felt like it was unfair that she had to grow them. To me, that seems related to the fact that she was robbed of her childhood due to some of the trauma-based history. Great question, though, about whether she'd feel the same about a woman touching her breasts. I might ask her that. She's always been bisexual, and her only other serious, long-term relationship was with a woman. And she said she always had short hair except for our first few years together. The discovery of the whole non-binary world was a huge thing for her - transformational and joyful because "finally" people were understanding and expressing her feelings.
She also has started referring to herself as pansexual rather than bisexual - "that gender and sex are not determining factors in their romantic or sexual attraction to others." Which to me does not compute, but whatever. When we were talking about her breast removal at the very beginning and I was trying to get a foothold of empathy, I asked how she would feel if I had my penis removed. She said if it's what I really wanted and it would make me happy, she'd be fine with it. Regular penetration-type intercourse is not "the ultimate" for her, anyway, though it's also not for a lot straight women. But still... that was kind of a shocker to hear. I have a romantic attachment to her breasts - not just a sexual one. I guess she wouldn't get that. Sometimes it's like trying to understand alien psychology. And again, simply understanding isn't going to help me any.
Understanding a thing gives you the ability to deal with it. Not understanding something means you will struggle to find the correct solution. If you know the why?, you can endure any how? That is in your DNA as a man.
Last edited by Ordinary guy (July 13, 2021 11:18 am)
And now here is my secret, a very simple secret. It is only with the heart that one can see clearly that which is essential is invisible to the eye.
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Posted by Cortiz108 July 14, 2021 7:36 am | #14 |
Understanding a thing gives you the ability to deal with it. Not understanding something means you will struggle to find the correct solution. If you know the why?, you can endure any how? That is in your DNA as a man.
That's true to a degree. But no amount of understanding her reasons, perspective, psychology etc. is going to change the situation for me. I'm faced with the choice of staying with a nonbinary person who was a woman when I married her, or ending the marriage. And ending it is now my decision - not the person who made this change
- because she says she still wants to be with me. I actually empathize with her feelings of rejection but don't really know what to do about it.
What makes it feel overwhelmingly complicated is that even before the nonbinary thing I didn't know if we'd be staying together because of all the CPTSD-related arguments over the past couple of years. The fact that it's been so long is disheartening in itself.
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Posted by Cortiz108 July 14, 2021 7:48 am | #15 |
"emotionally disappointing" says it all, and our spouses tend to ignore our disappointment. I don't talk to my partner about my own disappointment anymore, I'm 4 and a half years into the Mindfuck and have accepted he's not the man I knew.
JohnDinWyo words "The first thing to accept is that the person you started the relationship 10 years ago, has grown and its probably completely different from what they are now. " was the path I took, and although my partner hasn't totally changed I no longer deny the hurt he caused me while he went through a few months of personal introspection (and that's my own words, he would never use them) that led him to keep secrets, gaslight me, 'be somebody else'.
I guess you can say that *I* have changed too. It takes a self-awareness to see, admit and accept what is happening when the person you love tries to hide who they really are.
I no longer expect the man...who I've spent more of my life with than without...to be who he used to be.
Yes, emotionally disappointed for sure. I just feel so alone - and the fact that going to my former "wife" (now generic "spouse") is trauma bonding makes it all so depressing. That's already a loss in a marriage as far as I'm concerned. I can't talk to my close family members because they'll just pile on about what a horrible person my spouse is, which is just not helpful (long history with in-law family crap on top of everything). The last time I reached out to my sister she actually wrote to my spouse a long, cruel, email full of all kinds of bullshit and misunderstandings....putting me in the codependent position of defending the person who I'm having all these problems with in the first place. And of course, the email triggered a major dysregulation and suicidal episode in my spouse. I don't want to burden friends because I know there's only so much they can take, and not much they can do to help. I'm even losing my therapist, after her unreliability and just not showing up to appointments multiple times I think I need to find a new one. This is after 1 1/2 years of therapy with her, which I started in order to help deal with my wife's PTSD.
So I'm glad I found this place.
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Posted by Cortiz108 July 14, 2021 8:08 am | #16 |
Cortiz,
A couple of comments on other aspects you are experiencing that I also experienced:
Defining and redefining what they "are" is a reflection of the confusion they themselves feel. My ex did this, too. He was at various times "bringing into being the little girl and woman he wasn't allowed to become," one woman, multiple women, multiple women and men. At every stop at every definition, he saw it as definitive and expected me to accept that explanation, but he could change his idea at the drop of the hat; he would also say one thing, then say another while still holding on, inside, to the original idea. I see this as a reflection of the incoherence of their thinking, and evidence of disordered thought. If you see in in that way, instead of trying to accept it as the expression of logically arrived at conclusions, you will be less whipped around. It is, as you say, "alien psychology"; my father was bipolar, with paranoid delusions, and when my trans-identified ex would speak about himself, I got a very strong feeling of familiarity. He seemed both irrational and delusional to me, and trying to engage him as if he weren't was an exercise in frustration.
The going back and forth on what they "might" do or "would like" to do, but changing their minds, eg, your wife's thinking she might have her breasts lopped off, or might not. My ex originally told me he wanted to have his testicles removed and take cross-sex hormones. Later he walked that back to "I still want that; it's the ideal, but I have currently decided not to make irreversible changes, not least because it would affect our relationship. But I can't promise I won't change my mind in the future."
I found that I could not live in this state of contingency. It's crazy-making, like waiting for the other shoe to drop. How do you make plans for the future when your partner has said that at any time they may decide to pull the rug out from under the status quo? That is not a reasonable expectation on their part, nor on ours. Plus not knowing what our partners may choose to do, but knowing that they have arrogated that choice to themselves alone, and feel entitled to expect us to go along with it should they change their minds, keeps us in a state of reactive uncertainty, on the back foot, defensive, and with no firm ground under us. It's no way to live, and not a good state in which to conduct a marriage.
I sent my wife a few extracts from posts here, including some of what you wrote here - hoping she'd understand better if some of these words and feelings weren't coming from me. I guess she did finally, because she got really upset, crying all night, dysregulated etc. A huge meltdown, as if it were the first time she was hearing any of it. This has happened many times, though, on various subjects - I will think something has been discussed and resolved, and then she brings it up again as if it's new - and get angry when I tell her we already went through all that. I don't know if that's a PTSD symptom or what.
Among all the stuff she sent me to read and watch about the nonbinary world, hoping it would help me connect with it and embrace it, was a video of an interview with a nonbinary person. Their attitude was about it being playful, experimental, exploratory, and also confrontational - messing with the straight world but also the "regular" LGBTQ world which apparently doesn't always embrace nonbinaries. My spouse really liked the person being interviewed, and it really resonated with her - but I thought they were boring, pretentious, and self-obsessed. Things like "I'm in a polyamorous relationship with all my own different personas." I get it - I pushed plenty of boundaries when I was a teenager and still do in some areas of my life. And I also get that this is empowering stuff for people who really feel that way. It just weirds me out that it's so important to the person I thought of as my wife, to the point that she's willing to jeopardize our marriage over it.... while making it seem like I'm actually the one putting our marriage in jeopardy by not embracing this change and going on this supposedly wonderful journey of expanding minds and open consciousness together.
I don't believe in gods or fate, but sometimes I sure feel like I'm being tested - in exactly the things I've always been open-minded about., and things I thought were positive qualities I possessed. I feel like I'm a naive idiot, actually, to have believed that I was finally in a great relationship with the love of my life, and that no matter what happened at least that difficult part of life was resolved. Now I feel like I'm going back to square 1.
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Posted by lily July 14, 2021 11:56 am | #17 |
maybe square one is not such a bad place to be. It gives you hope.
Hope you might find a nice woman just for starters, and god forbid she should be straight and love you back.
Give yourself a pat on the back for being so stoic!
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Posted by Ellexoh_nz July 14, 2021 2:38 pm | #18 |
My comments in red
.....I just feel so alone - that's why you have to find somebody to talk to. The fact you say your family will just "pile on" may mean they already suspect the non-binary-ness but don't know how to open the conversation about it. And if you're honest, if you're sure about the Pile-on...confront it, quietly, and say "I'm hurting, please let me talk" If they can't shut up....walk out and get a counselor. You need to talk to somebody.
and the fact that going to my former "wife" (now generic "spouse") is trauma bonding makes it all so depressing. You may (soon) get to the point of realisation that your spouse isn't the right person to talk to. She is too close to your trauma, doesn't understand it and probably can only see it through her own.
That's already a loss in a marriage as far as I'm concerned. I can't talk to my close family members because they'll just pile on about what a horrible person my spouse is, which is just not helpful (long history with in-law family crap on top of everything). The last time I reached out to my sister she actually wrote to my spouse a long, cruel, email full of all kinds of bullshit and misunderstandings....putting me in the codependent position of defending the person who I'm having all these problems with in the first place. Your sister's feelings, the cruel email are your sister's to own, you shouldn't feel you have to defend anybody!. Instead of going into defense mode it would have been the perfect time to open that conversation with your sister.
And of course, the email triggered a major dysregulation and suicidal episode in my spouse. Being pulled in 2 directions....can you see what's happening? You can't fix everybody
I don't want to burden friends because I know there's only so much they can take, and not much they can do to help. You need people to be a sounding board, they don't have to do anything, just listen.
I'm even losing my therapist, after her unreliability and just not showing up to appointments multiple times I think I need to find a new one. This is after 1 1/2 years of therapy with her, which I started in order to help deal with my wife's PTSD. Fuck yes...find a new one
So I'm glad I found this place. We're glad you found us too
Elle
KIA KAHA
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Posted by Cortiz108 July 16, 2021 6:51 am | #19 |
maybe square one is not such a bad place to be. It gives you hope.
Hope you might find a nice woman just for starters, and god forbid she should be straight and love you back.
Give yourself a pat on the back for being so stoic!
That's a good point. Square 1 is better then being in the abyss of hell. I wish I could be stoic all the time, but it's more like I'm on a roller-coaster.
I do believe my "ex-wife" does love me (I guess ex-wife is an appropriate term since she's no longer a woman and therefore not a wife, but generic "spouse"). She's just too messed up in too many ways to know how to treat the people you care about, and is in paranoid fight or flight mode half the time because of her CPTSD. The threat of losing me, our marriage, the dream of a stable home together and all that is just making those things worse, and now she's dysregulated like half the time or more.
I didn't think communication could get any worse, but it seems to have now. We can barely exchange a few words without it threatening to become an argument. So depressing to remember what it used to be like, how easy things were, how connected we were....
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Posted by Cortiz108 July 16, 2021 7:12 am | #20 |
My comments in red
.....I just feel so alone - that's why you have to find somebody to talk to. The fact you say your family will just "pile on" may mean they already suspect the non-binary-ness but don't know how to open the conversation about it. And if you're honest, if you're sure about the Pile-on...confront it, quietly, and say "I'm hurting, please let me talk" If they can't shut up....walk out and get a counselor. You need to talk to somebody.
and the fact that going to my former "wife" (now generic "spouse") is trauma bonding makes it all so depressing. You may (soon) get to the point of realisation that your spouse isn't the right person to talk to. She is too close to your trauma, doesn't understand it and probably can only see it through her own.
That's already a loss in a marriage as far as I'm concerned. I can't talk to my close family members because they'll just pile on about what a horrible person my spouse is, which is just not helpful (long history with in-law family crap on top of everything). The last time I reached out to my sister she actually wrote to my spouse a long, cruel, email full of all kinds of bullshit and misunderstandings....putting me in the codependent position of defending the person who I'm having all these problems with in the first place. Your sister's feelings, the cruel email are your sister's to own, you shouldn't feel you have to defend anybody!. Instead of going into defense mode it would have been the perfect time to open that conversation with your sister.
And of course, the email triggered a major dysregulation and suicidal episode in my spouse. Being pulled in 2 directions....can you see what's happening? You can't fix everybody
I don't want to burden friends because I know there's only so much they can take, and not much they can do to help. You need people to be a sounding board, they don't have to do anything, just listen.
I'm even losing my therapist, after her unreliability and just not showing up to appointments multiple times I think I need to find a new one. This is after 1 1/2 years of therapy with her, which I started in order to help deal with my wife's PTSD. Fuck yes...find a new one
So I'm glad I found this place. We're glad you found us tooElle
Thank you. My family (meaning my mom and sister who I'm close to) knows all about my spouse's non-binaryness, that she's bisexual, and about the CPTSD nightmare I've been living through. I'm not saying they'll pile on out of speculation - I opened up to them and that's what they did. My mom in an email to me, venting about all the things that have pissed her off about my spouse, and my sister directly to my spouse. My mom understood when I told her that it wasn't a reaction that helped me and actually made things worse, but my sister is an alcoholic (or dry drunk - not sure if she's sober now) so she's as bad as my spouse when it comes to arguing and going down the rabbit hole with crazy logic and always shifting the topic an inch or two to keep you off balance. She needs to be right, and she needs to feel like she's saving people in the way she thinks they need to be saved. I did try to talk to her about my feelings about it, and it turned into a nightmarish 2 1/2 hour phone call and multiple novel-length email exchange. So nope, can't talk to her anymore, and in fact that added a heap of anxiety and sorrow to my situation and made me feel more alone. My mom is 81 and I don't really want to add more grief to her life. I'll probably be staying with her and/or mys sister on and off when we move back, but I'm going to tell them I just don't want to talk about my spouse.
Yep, I do see what's happening with the being pulled in two directions. It's been happening since I first moved with my wife to where my family is. Being the mediator between her and various family members. She's had problems with all of them, though they were also not good to her (or me, for that matter) when we first moved there. Then nobody talked about it or resolved the hurt feelings (except me, trying on other peoples' behalf) and they stewed for 7 years. And now we're moving back....
Yes, absolutely right about my spouse not being the right person to talk about it with. She's not understanding or accepting my perspective, and times when it seems she does she just gets angry. She has serious anger issues that seem to have been released with her EMDR therapy.
I have an zoom with a new therapist next week - hopefully he's a good one. And should have a couple's counselor soon, too. Though I actually have little hopes that will help, especially if my spouse goes into it already suspicious and hostile and seeing it as punishment (which she's said).
