I'm so sorry you are dealing with and trying to navigate your thoughts and her thoughts.

I don't understand the whole LBGTQ pronouns, sexuality, gender etc one now calls themselves when they "discover" who they are. I could be off base here, but sounds like your partner is dealing with dysphoria and no longer accepting of her breast. She appears to be moving towards a more male appearance than binary? Is she possible telling you she maybe transgender?

My STBXH came out to me about 7 months ago after being together for 16 years. He said he is attracted to me when male, but when female "she" desires men. He said he is now a "bi-trans" but I don't see anything bi about it because now he only wants to pursue men. I asked him if he was "gay" and he said absolutely not. He does not desire men when he is male and only desires men when he is "female". I told him he was not a "woman" because he has not had a sex change, but on hormones and now presenting a a woman in public. I guess in "his" mind he is a "woman" and want a "hetero" relationship so he is not bi or gay. He was willing to try to be with me while admitting to be trans, but "she" does not want a relationship with a woman if it were not for me. I guess only wanting a relationship with me, but not recognizing me as a woman but a long term partner. My head spins talking about this crazy evolution in his mind. I have now viewed him as multiple personality and mentally ill. I don't know anyone who wakes up one day to say I'm male and then want to change their entire being the next to female. This is just how I cope with the chaos.

I hope you find some clarity in your situation and really look hard at what you want and will accept. I went through a good 6 months of chaos trying to hold onto something that was obviously gone and not worth it in the end as it compromised my values as a person/female. Not only that, but the deceit and betrayal took a huge toll on me.

Take care and find peace with what you want in your life. It appears she knows what she wants and for you to join her ride, but don't compromise on your joy.

Take care!

Welcome Cortiz....being told by somebody you love that they identify as non-binary can tend to knock one's 
unjudgemental stance right out the window and make you rethink it all

Elle

Thank you so much for all the replies.  One thing that's been really hard is to have normal, pleasant days with her in the midst of all this.  It's a false hope, but we can't just live in despair all the time.  Or maybe it's better to look at it as becoming friends, and enjoying each others' company in that way rather than as a married couple.

JohnDInWyo wrote:

I'm so sorry you're going through this. It seems like you are trying to accept reality, but not entirely comfortable with it. The first thing to accept is that the person you started the relationship 10 years ago, has grown and its probably completely different from what they are now. Its very though accepting things as they are, but sometimes it all is for the better. Like for me, your compatibility has dissolved. After all, the way people present themselves to world has an effect on how others are attracted to them. You are an hetetosexual cisgender man attracted to female presenting ciswomen. At least they are still attracted to you, its a matter of whether you are okay with the way they are now.
Hope you are holding up.

Thanks.  Yes, that's definitely it.  Funny reading this when she insists she hasn't changed at all, and only found the right language to describe "themselves".  We just had (another) argument that went nowhere.  She asks me exactly how she's changed, I start to tell her, and she denies it.  She latches on to one thing out of many and won't let go.  Today it was because I said she used to never have a bad word to say about anybody, and had sweet, kind gentleness that I really admired and was even inspired by. I don't see much of that anymore.  She got really angry (again) and said I'm judging her for not being a meek doormat anymore.  There are just soooo many issues and such bad communication that it's hard to have much hope.  She thinks that if I understand more about things like the continuum of sexes in biology (that it's not only "man" or "woman") that I'll somehow "get" it and be more open-minded.  I keep trying to explain that it's not about understanding, it's about feeling, and trying to give examples that she might relate to.  Like if I suddenly decided I'm uncomfortable with my non-macho sensitive guy identity, and decided I wanted to start lifting weights, get a chest wig, get really into my "maleness" etc. But no luck there, either,  Just refusing to see any parallel, and it ending in anger and arguments.    
 

OutofHisCloset wrote:

Oh, this is so much like what I went through with my now-ex, who decided he was transgender.  No empathy for or even understanding of what I might be feeling in light of his declaration and actions; his therapist had to tell him that I was grieving!  Lots of "shoulds" and "musts." 

The idea that we should just "love them for who they are" is also common.  Interesting, though, that while the "package" (gender presentation, sexuality) is not supposed to matter to us, it's allowed to matter supremely to them!  So much so, in fact, that they want to alter their bodies.  But if it's what's inside or what one feels that's counts, they why is it so important for them to alter that outside?  

 Like you, I did not want my entire life to be dominated by all things trans, and I told my husband this early on, citing it as a reason when I said I wanted a divorce.  I did end up trying to accommodate him (long story), including his new sexual practices and desires, for three years, but in the end I couldn't sustain what for me was unsatisfying and a charade, so I divorced him.  

  When our partners want to change everything about themselves, it is simply not reasonable to expect that we will follow along, and, against our own sexuality, interests, and desires, change to accommodate them.  I fell in love with a man.  His maleness was central to my falling in love with him, and by that I mean that although yes, I am heterosexual, so I fell in love with a man, I fell in love with HIM specifically because he was the kind of man he was--not a macho, dominating, domineering patriarch, but a witty, artistic, literate man who like me was uncomfortable with the gender roles that society tried to foist off onto us.  For my then-husband to change everything about the basis for our relationship, including sexually, and to demand I remake myself to suit his new ideas about himself was the epitome of selfish.  

They have a right to feel as they do and do as they do; they don't have a right to insist that we accept their reality as our own.  

Those are great points, thank you. It's hard to deal with the lack of empathy, but I guess it's because she feels so judged.  Maybe even expecting empathy is a kind of trauma bonding. Everything I say is challenged rather than really heard.  

She says that having long hair and looking more feminine was an experiment, she was just playing around.  Though other times she says that she was trying to be accepted more, and to be treated better by society in general.  Maybe both are true.  It's almost as if she gets angry with me for having fallen in love with her when she looked like that.  As a pansexual person, I guess she looked more masculine at times before I knew her.

And yes - that's such a double standard! Expecting us to be so evolved that we're beyond appearances, when they're making such an issue of their own about it.  At one point she said her breasts were just there "for other people" (meaning me, but very weirdly put) and that if I want to enjoy them when we're intimate that's fine.  I told her I don't see her as a blow-up doll, and it's not really a turn-on for me to do something "to" her that I know she's not enjoying.  I'd feel like I was molesting her. I just can't help thinking it's all so weird and unnecessary.  But I guess it's necessary for her. 

She also says she won't do top surgery now.  Though that changes.  Sometimes it's "for as long as we're together", sometimes it's not until she's talked to a gender therapist, sometimes maybe it's not at all.  Lately it's as if that's not even a factor, though it's in the back of my mind all the time.  Because at first it was a big deal and she was very serious about it, and at one point I thought had pretty much decided on it.  I really don't want to stop her from doing whatever she needs to do to make herself happy, but the idea is not just a turn-off to me, it's horrific and depressing.

 

Ordinary guy wrote:

Hi Cortez,

First things first. Are you at liberty to divulge the name country in which you reside?

One would hope that professional medical experts would not undertake any drastic surgical interventions when the subject is plainly suffering mental health issues. These should be fully resolved before further actions can be outlined with a view to a permanent resolution. You have stated clearly that one of her/their frustrations seems to be that you "cannot love her for who she/they is/are now". But you did, didn't you? The woman that you fell in love with has changed into someone you have described as someone you are no longer attracted to. You should not see this as your problem to try and resolve, you have effectively lost your original partner and now are facing your own moral dilemma regarding whether or not your feelings towards them are valid. This common dilemma appears frequently in the straight spouses here. You have said that the overall change toward stereotypical masculine behaviour and appearance is not attractive to you. That is the key element with which should guide your own decision making. You describe yourself as being tolerant and accepting, which is obvious in the fact that you have remained steadfastly loyal and supportive with your partner. Many people would have simply walked away from this situation along time ago because they were not equipped to deal with it. Don't ever beat yourself up Cortez, you are an example of what true humanity should be. It is difficult sometimes to find solutions that meet the requirements of both parties in these situations. One person seems to "win" while the other seems to "lose", and in your situation it seems that the in order for you to maintain the relationship the acquiescence required falls on you. What would your future self counsel you to do now? Please try to bear your own future happiness in mind Cortez. You certainly don't want to become resentful further down the line as that feeling would be an anathema to you.
 The issue of her currently identifying as non-binary seems a little troubling to me in that she seems to actually identify more with a masculine identity. Non-binary people on the whole identify with an innate androgyny that leaves them with an ambiguous self identification. The decision to remove the breasts would also suggest that a gender identity decision has been made on some level. This is a very confusing time for your partner, and I would suggest that it represents a case that should actually be referred to a psychiatrist more than a therapist. My suggestion is that you may be dealing with a transgender man as a sexual identity. Where the waters are being muddied is in the sexual orientation of your partner. Her/Their/His aversion to having you as a heterosexual man touch her/their/his breasts could be a key to unlock the identification issue. Would she/they/he feel the same if a woman were touching the breasts?
 There has been significant discussion here around the self-identification of a bi-sexual identity as a psychological stopover on the journey to a realised gay identity. It could be that the same psychological phenomenon is being played out here. It could well be that the non-binary identification is a stopover in the transition to a male identity. I think that most people who firmly identify as non-binary have essentially always been just that way all through their lives. It should not show up as a sudden shift in the same way that a sexual orientation can. Your partner clearly seems to be more comfortable identifying as masculine by dint of her actions.

Never forget to take your own feelings into account. Allow yourself to feel what you want. You will be better able to support your partner In whatever the situation is from a position of detached rationality. I mean we all want to live the happiest lives we can. That applies to both the spouses in all of the situations we have to live with. You cannot resolve this problem until you have identified exactly what the problem is. Please remember that you are a good person Cortez, a good man. Your partner is very lucky to have someone with your moral compass in their life.

4883 days...

 

Many thanks for the kind words, and the wise perspectives.  I'm in Europe in a country where we don't speak the language.  If she decides to pursue the surgery, it wouldn't be until we're back in the US, which will be before the end of the year.  And yes, I wonder if she'd even be give the green light given her CPTSD.  I'm guessing it would be long process to get to that point.  She did just find a new therapist back at "home" and has started zoom sessions with "them" - she found a nonbinary therapist, which is great for her.  I'm not sure if she's a psychiatrist or not - and I'm not even going to ask because that in itself is an invitation to an argument.  And saying that makes me think how sad, that a married person can't talk to his spouse about something like that.

She doesn't even see her "manliness" as I do, and seems to just think it's a matter of wanting short hair.  When I've tried to explain it, the changes I see in her. the conversation keeps getting sidetracked to some other emotive issue so I never quite get there.  Plus, it's sometimes impossible because if I even use terms like "masculine" of "feminine" I'm challenged to define them, and am "trans-splained" about how those categories are just social constructs.  She also insists that she hasn't changed at all sometimes; though other times it's "there's nothing wrong with change."

She definitely sees herself as non-binary.  At one point she said that the last time really felt like herself was before she had breasts - that she didn't want them, and felt like it was unfair that she had to grow them.  To me, that seems related to the fact that she was robbed of her childhood due to some of the trauma-based history.  Great question, though, about whether she'd feel the same about a woman touching her breasts.  I might ask her that.  She's always been bisexual, and her only other serious, long-term relationship was with a woman. And she said she always had short hair except for our first few years together.  The discovery of the whole non-binary world was a huge thing for her - transformational and joyful because "finally" people were understanding and expressing her feelings. 

She also has started referring to herself as pansexual rather than bisexual - "that gender and sex are not determining factors in their romantic or sexual attraction to others."  Which to me does not compute, but whatever.  When we were talking about her breast removal at the very beginning and I was trying to get a foothold of empathy, I asked how she would feel if I had my penis removed.  She said if it's what I really wanted and it would make me happy, she'd be fine with it.  Regular penetration-type intercourse is not "the ultimate" for her, anyway, though it's also not for a lot straight women.  But still... that was kind of a shocker to hear.  I have a romantic attachment to her breasts - not just a sexual one.  I guess she wouldn't get that.  Sometimes it's like trying to understand alien psychology.  And again, simply understanding isn't going to help me any.