OurPath (formerly SSN) Open Forum / Elizabeth Smart father announcement

**Posted by OutofHisCloset** August 18, 2019 8:17 am

Whirligig,
You didn't make "a hash" of your explanation at all! I think what you say about people twisting religion to justify their own behavior is exactly right. A form of "the devil can quote scripture."
In fact, after your explanation I thought long and hard about what you'd written in response to that first post of mine, and now think it would have been better for me to focus on my own experience rather than to speak in generalities about women's second class citizenship.
It is indeed hard work to self-examine. I try to do it, but am only too aware of how easy it is to justify and rationalize my own position. I'm often wracked by doubt about my conclusions, and unsure how to tell if what I do conclude can be trusted. I guess you could say my self-examination also requires examining my self-examination! I'm not always grateful to be able to do that work, but I do believe it's necessary if I want to hold myself to account, and live an honest life. (And I hope this doesn't make me sound like a self-serving person, and demonstrate self-deception rather than honesty!)

**Posted by a_dads_straight_journey** August 18, 2019 1:19 pm

Deleted

Last edited by a_dads_straight_journey (August 18, 2019 1:23 pm)

**Posted by a_dads_straight_journey** August 19, 2019 2:17 pm

OOHC
your analysis of the Smart letter is stellar. I wonder if there’s a public forum where it could be published as an editorial.

Recently someone used the word cowardice here to describe the GID spouse. The courage they are espoused to have in the media when they come out infuriates me. It’s equivalent to the cowardice of a soldier deserting in combat being recognized with the Medal of Honor after lives were lost due to his cowardice.

Imagine that in print on the editorial page of the New York Times or Washington Post.

ADSJ

**Posted by OutofHisCloset** August 19, 2019 3:32 pm

Maybe the SSN would do it as a blog entry. Have to think about that. On My Own Two Feet made some amazing points about the situation, too.

**Posted by Leah** August 21, 2019 6:40 am

Thank you OOHC, Whirligig and OMOTF for your analysis and comments flagging this up. I have often wondered as a Mormon how much of this is the church's fault. I think the church does not intentionally make women second class citizens, but by glorifying our role as mothers and wives as our highest good or calling in life it does create problems around equality and independence as the roles are very traditionally held. I was dismissed as a seminary teacher once I got pregnant as the stake pres thought I should be at home and resting! I didn't have a choice there. And if that isn't some patriarchal bullshit, then I'm not sure what qualifies. Literally until recently the temple ordinances outlined a woman's path to godhood was ONLY via her husband. A single woman could not reach that state. So I'm afraid Mormon doctrine is clearly NOT empowering to women as it does limit their options in life. Being a single, childless Mormon woman is to be a second class citizen for sure in that culture. I was a missionary and temple married, and a scripture chase champion haha. I'm certainly pissed off at Mormonism for its unremittingly inflexible attitudes towards sexuality full stop which not only result in gay suicides, but closeted spouses. There is responsibility there. IMHO.

**Posted by OnMyOwnTwoFeet** August 21, 2019 7:54 pm

I was too flippant in this post, which I've deleted. All of this is so sensitive, and I was not considerate of the complexity of everyone's feelings here. Best to all.

Last edited by OnMyOwnTwoFeet (August 22, 2019 12:29 pm)

**Posted by OutofHisCloset** August 21, 2019 9:41 pm

Leah,
I was so hoping you would weigh in. Glad you did.

**Posted by Whirligig** August 22, 2019 2:18 am

Leah wrote:
Being a single, childless Mormon woman is to be a second class citizen for sure in that culture.

Being a single, childless Mormon woman who doesn't feel this way, I found this remark stinging and dismissive of my experience. I doubt highly that was the intent but it was painful to read. I have been single for as long as many others have been married. It's not everyone's experience or viewpoint but it's my reality and I will likely be single for the rest of my life.

It's hard to read that somehow my being single is an experience not as painful or 'less than' a gay person's who chooses celibacy too. It's an incredibly common assumption, but I think we're more diverse than that and I think it's a convenient comparison that makes light of one or the other and is fair to neither. So, yes, for myself, my hope rests in a God who will make it right in the end for everyone according to their individual circumstances. Including the people who hurt me. It gives me some of the only peace I've been able to find in the last year or so.

**Posted by OnMyOwnTwoFeet** August 22, 2019 12:25 pm

Whirligig, I am sorry for my comparison about being single being less painful that a gay person's. you are absolutely right that we are all diverse. I was definitely flippant in that post. Anonymity is not always a good thing! I have a sister--50 and never married, LDS and single, who has gay and lesbian friends and colleagues, and she had discussed her experiences and her friends' experiences with me in many painful conversations over years. Although what I wrote does reflect some people's confusion as they work through the complexity of it all, it also only represents one point in time of anecdotal experiences. It was wrong for me not to be qualified and generous. Especially when I actually do hope in a God who works things out and will wipe away all tears. Again, I apologize for this, and truly appreciate you reminding me to remember all people an not just my own anger in the moment. Best.

**Posted by Leah** August 22, 2019 2:06 pm

I'm sorry Whirligig, I don't intend to offend or upset you. We all have enough to be dealing with. I'm an angry ex-Mormon. I drank it all in and followed the rules, tried so hard to be 'good' only to end up feeling it was never enough. For me Mormonism is a toxic mix of things that did not inspire or uplift my life, but triggered perfectionism and comparison in me. I suspect I'm not alone in this. Depression is rampant in Utah with the highest level of prozac use in the USA. Anger at the self for not achieving all that 'God' wants for me....is what I felt which led to depression and lack of self esteem. And my GIDx was able to use this to his advantage by turning any problems always to my lack or faults, so it was made all the more toxic in my life.

And Mormon doctrine is pretty damning towards those who don't take on the commonly celebrated (I would say fetishised -as in taken to an almost ridiculous extreme) role of wife and mother - it holds you back from the highest levels of heaven - pretty second class treatment I'd say. I'm sorry if that offends, but my comment was about a doctrinal point as I understood it. I've been out 20 years now, but in conversation with a friend she told me of recent changes to the temple ceremony that altered this sorry state of affairs. So I suppose that is welcome progress.

Men write the doctrine. Not women. And being single should not be a 'lesser' option that inhibits your progress in any way. I'm glad you don't feel it does for you in your participation as a Mormon woman. For me it does, men sit behind the pulpit with the only woman usually being an organist and chorister or speaker. No female leaders. I'd like to see that change.

I asked my brother if I could attend priesthood mtg a few weeks ago and have a chat about women's place in the leadership - "uh no. I don't think so" he said, and we laughed. Until women are equal to men in all aspects of the religious observance, we are second class citizens with no right to vote or fully participate. I'd love to see all the women refuse to sustain a prophet or leader just once. Why do women accept that status quo? Is it God's will that women cannot be priestesses?

You might notice I'm a teeny tiny bit annoyed at the church generally. I wish you well. I loved much about my life in the church, but am also glad not to be a part of it anymore.

Last edited by Leah (August 22, 2019 2:42 pm)