Posted by Whirligig July 2, 2020 10:28 pm | #11 |
lily wrote:
I think we must also acknowledge how long that thread is - how many wives sought his advice.
Agreed lily. This is the source of my ambivalence. If he helped others, and many said as much, it was the least he could do but in the process his ex-wife became the sacrifice. It just always bothered me personally that she would bear the weight from him 'again' for others to feel better. Wasn't that the source of so much pain for so many of us? Being used for another's benefit without our permission?
But how difficult is it to say to someone it helped 'that's not okay'? They deserve healing too. She may be perfectly fine with him so my concern could be misplaced but we only had his narrative for that. I engaged with him in only a couple exchanges and I doubt he liked me any better than I liked him but it was brief because I couldn't forget that she couldn't share her own story because he was telling his and I didn't want to be complicit in that and didn't appreciate his perspective anyway. These are my personal feelings and I don't fault anyone for finding him useful but that's the problem for me and hence the ambivalence.
Posted by JoeC July 3, 2020 9:15 am | #12 |
When we look at the straight spouse experience as a whole its not just one sided, yet the forum type dictates the type of conversation and social norms are established. If you ever explore LGBQT forums you will see the same types of discussions that you see here just on the other side of the coin. People uses forums for different reasons, need them for different reasons.
The thread structure and organization of a forum can help mitigate conversations that are triggering for one reason or another. In this case there is potentially opportunity to add a "gay/questioning spouse section" for threads like Seans. The gay/questioning spouse might find this forum useful, they might find it reassuring, it may help them make a decision to be honest and truthful with their spouse.
In my journey, my ex was limited on her explanation for why she held on so long, frankly she didn't know. I felt lost and wanted answers. So I found a lesbian thread on a forum and was able to gain perspective on why it was so difficult for my ex to come out and stay in a heterosexual marriage. Was it helpful? to an extent, did it hurt to read it? Yes to some degree and when I got my fill I was done.
I believe that though exposure, story, sharing and research we can work toward a world where there aren't as many straight spouse situations. So If I or someone else can read about the other side of the coin and gain some perspective, understanding and perhaps move toward healing then for me there is value in that. Above all, maybe there is some questioning/gay person who doesn't get married because they had access to read our stories, well then am all for that because that means there is one less straight spouse in the world.
All of this said; this is not my forum, not my site and not my decision. I respect the owners decisions and they can do what they want. I am just a participant in the forums.
Posted by Whirligig July 3, 2020 9:55 am | #13 |
I wouldn't participate if there were a thread like that on the boards. I wouldn't feel safe. I don't buy that they don't know. And if they are questioning? Don't get married! Full stop. Figure it out on your own without involving other people. Get therapy. Or disclose so the straight person can make an informed decision. Pretty simple I think. No thread needed. Straight people aren't on the planet for them to experiment on until they figure it out! Stay single! Being single is a perfectly acceptable solution for anyone.
Posted by OutofHisCloset July 3, 2020 9:58 am | #14 |
"Straight people aren't on the planet for them to experiment on until they figure it out! "
Great way to put it! And we spouses aren't obligated to stick around until they do figure it out, regardless of the pressure exerted on us to do so.
Posted by JoeC July 3, 2020 11:14 am | #15 |
Whirligig wrote:
I don't buy that they don't know. And if they are questioning?........................ .
Mine knew since the 7th grade, she knew for years, she just ignored it and eventually said she didn't really know or understand. I don't know what to think of that now. You know what though....its a statement that repeats itself over and over....so what does it mean?
Its not fair right....I mean I always knew I was straight and never questioned it.
Posted by lily July 3, 2020 11:58 am | #16 |
It's not. fair, right? - no it isn't fair. It's interesting. My life experiences have drawn me to conclude that most people know what is fair or not. But not everyone seeks to be fair. But if you are a fair and reasonable person, if you have that moral core, then it is only natural to be fair to others.
I mean, just trying to estimate how many gay people are in the closet is a hopeless task isn't it. Denial is denial. But just for a moment let's look at their experience -most of them would have grown up in a family where one of their parents was in the closet - ie right from the start of their lives it's the family model, it is their norm.
My observation is that the straight parent is usually held to be the one at fault, as the one causing the pain in the family. The closet is the closet, it causes so much pain.
Being born gay with a parent in the closet is challenging but there's two parents right, it depends where you get your nature from, the closeted one or the straight one - imo that's the main factor as to whether it's another closet or an openly gay life.
I know one woman, she had four children by four different fathers. I think she was married to all of them. But as soon as the child was born she didn't want a bar of the father, all his fault of course, and she would get a divorce pretty quickly. Finally a long time down the road, she got a girlfriend.
So I think you could say her maternal instincts triumphed over her sense of fairness and integrity but at least she didn't inflict a lifetime of pain on the fathers, but heck she didn't give them any honesty either.
Posted by walkbymyself July 3, 2020 12:19 pm | #17 |
I'm kind of with Elle on this, for the most part, but I'm ok with Sean's participation in a dedicated thread. I actually didn't have so much of an issue with Sean, probably because by the time I'd joined up, he'd owned up to the pain he'd caused. He was here to listen or to respond to questions, but not necessarily to evangelize about how none of this is our spouse's fault. I'm really not interested in hearing the other side of the story, if it's all about excusing abusive or uncaring behavior.
If I wanted to hear lame rationalizations about why gays deceive straight people into marrying them, I'll talk to my lying sack of shit husband.
That being said, I did think it was helpful to be able to ask Sean to translate some of the phrases I'd found in my husband's text messages. I think that having a dedicated thread was a good way to strike a balance.
Posted by Daryl July 3, 2020 6:22 pm | #18 |
If you go to the main SSN page it states (emphasis mine)
"The Straight Spouse Network (SSN) is an international organization that provides personal, confidential support and information to heterosexual spouses/partners, current or former, of gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender mates and mixed-orientation or transgender/non-transgender couples for constructively resolving coming-out problems. "
The focus is on helping the heterosexual partner and I think this forum should firmly follow that statement. The non-hetero half of our relationships already have support options, if they are even interested in the question. This board doesn't need to cater to their journey.
Re: Sean - I didn't have much reason to interact with him but I understand how his presence might have been a bit upsetting to some. I thought the agreement that he would stay firmly in his one, well labelled thread, was a reasonable compromise. I think I'd agree that it's time for the moderators to lock that thread to further posts.
Re: Samantha - I'd say a similar agreement is a reasonable expectation or request. One thread, well labelled. Since it's already in the section for people actively trying to remain in a MOM, I would expect it to be of interest only to someone who is in that group. It should be brutally honest about what it takes on both sides and not hesitate to point out red flags. It should be in line with the SSN statement I pasted above regarding support to the heterosexual spouse or partner.
New people sometimes come here desperate for answers and desperate for hope. I've always been pleased to see how people here are generally kind and empathetic but not about to sugar-coat their answers and send someone down a false path. I hope that continues.
My 2 cents.
Posted by Lyonene July 4, 2020 1:06 pm | #19 |
walkbymyself wrote:
I'm ok with Sean's participation in a dedicated thread. I actually didn't have so much of an issue with Sean, probably because by the time I'd joined up, he'd owned up to the pain he'd caused. He was here to listen or to respond to questions, but not necessarily to evangelize
Sums up pretty well how I feel about the Sean thread. He learned, others learned, it seemed a lot more beneficial than harmful. If he had been extolling gay virtues, legitimizing gay usage of straight people due to social issues, etc., the lot of us would have protested loudly.
I cannot say I feel that way about the "MOM" section. It seems in conflict with the intended spirit of this forum altogether.
Posted by Dutchman July 5, 2020 11:27 am | #20 |
I appreciate this forum in it's many facets, it has a unique and very needed important place to the straight spouses.
The "strategies for MOMs" section has a different quality compared to the other sections. The situations of the people responding there are potentially different than for instance those posting on the support part. I intentionally use the word "potentially" because by no means a wish and/or hope for a successful MOM will turn out to be a reality. And as we all can know, the odds generally are against those pursuing a successful MOM.
However, I think and hope these odds can be improved. But in my opinion that should only be about REAL successful MOM's. In my definition that incorporates the happiness of the straight spouse as well. I'm very sure this is in line with the purpose and intentions of the forum and organization on a whole.
Everyone striving for a successful MOM should acknowledge the importance of commitment from BOTH spouses. I think that should also be the emphasis in the "strategies for MOMs" section always... for that's the baseline! Whatever issues may come next and may be important as well.
I would like also to make a few observations about some of the reactions in this ongoing topic.
There seems to be a misconception about how my wife relates to the LGBT community. Like "Why does she come here? She surely has her place and support out there", and so on.
Well NO people, it's not like that at all!
A gay spouse really going for and being committed to a MOM, like my wife does, is considered an outcast by some/many in the LGBT community. Maybe a traitor to the cause, accused of not being true to themselves and a lot more accusations. Certainly not the "hailed and celebrated for courage" parade for coming out. In fact it's often just the opposite.
The only actual support we personally had was by people who directly knew us (like friends and in church). But out in the "general world" we're not wanted, and we're not something they prefer to hear about. A successful MOM isn't acceptable by many and is seen as an unwanted disturbance to their equilibrium. They prefer to dismiss it as "a mistake" (to put it mildly).
So, suggesting she has enough support being 'one of those' lesbians? ...Ha, that's a bitter joke!
But my wife doesn't post here to find support, rather to support others. So my wife would be fine expressing/sharing her experience in a dedicated thread in the MOM section. Her concern is dedicated to the wellbeing of other people in a MOM, and this definitely includes the straight spouses as well. She hasn't any other intention or aspiration than just that!