Posted by Steve  October 11, 2016 1:56 pm | #91 |
vicky wrote:
Steve.
You called me out as if I was giving you a hard time about suggesting others leave. I didn't take offense to your earlier posts. There were other posts where that suggestion was made I don't tattle tale so you can figure it out.
Vicky
'I've already moved past it Vicky but thanks. It's all good. As they say 'a rolling stone gathers no moss' 
You have a future. A good one. It begins as a flicker of hope. Nurture it until it becomes a dream and when you are strong enough you will make it a reality. NEVER give up.
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Posted by Séan October 14, 2016 9:11 pm | #92 |
I had one final thought that might be helpful for those considering whether or not to try or remain in a MOM. As a gay man who chose to marry a woman years ago, I wish someone would have asked me a simple question back then. And that question is: when you're having sex with your partner, in order to perform do you have to fantasize about the same sex? I was with my ex-wife for 20 years before finally (and excruciatingly) accepting that I was gay. For our entire relationship, I fantasized about men. Come to think of it, I've known I was attracted to men since I was five years old. I supposed that she and I could have done certain things, or incorporated certain toys, to provide the sexual experience I truly wanted. But what would she get out of it? Didn't she deserve to have someone who truly wanted to be with her, rather than having sex with someone pretending she was something else (namely a man)? This is I guess my fear when thinking of mixed orientation marriages. Now that I'm out, I could never go back to pretending...which made me and everyone around me miserable. Being intimate with the right gender for me was like watching a technicolour movie for the first time. Life before was so black and white. But it comes at a terrible cost for my ex-wife and children. So I feel nothing but compassion for those brave couples trying so hard to make their MOMs. By choosing to end my marriage two years ago, I caused a lot of pain...to both my children and their mother. For the rest of my life, I'll probably ask myself whether it was all worth it. I'll always wonder whether choosing to openly live as a gay man was worth sacrificing my family life and forever changing the lives of my three children. I've found love and have started to rebuild my life. I can only hope that my ex-wife will find the same.
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Posted by OutofHisCloset October 15, 2016 7:48 am | #93 |
Sean,
Here's something to comfort yourself with. When you considered how you and your wife could have accommodated your desire, you also asked yourself the very crucial question, "What would she get out of it?" and realized she deserved to be with someone who wanted her for herself. And you were courageous enough and unselfish enough to act on your realization so that each of you could have your needs satisfied. As JK says, eloquently, the spouse on the other end, the one who doesn't know the full story, can feel the emptiness, and questions and blames herself (or himself).
The hurt and grief post-disclosure is tremendous, but it's the first step to a life in color.
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Posted by Sharon November 19, 2016 9:31 pm | #94 |
Hi Leslie,
If you're still monitoring this thread feel free to reach out. I've been with my transgender spouse for 12 years after transition (married 15 years before I knew he was trans). I agree that it's hard to find support for those of us who want to try and make it work. We've found a way for the last 12 years and I'm happy to connect and offer support.
Sharon
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Posted by Sharon November 19, 2016 10:07 pm | #95 |
Oops. I wasn't logged in, so don't think you would have a way to reach me if you wanted to. New here, so I hope this works.
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Posted by NaiveChump November 26, 2016 6:44 pm | #96 |
I can understand "having" to be friends with your ex-gay husband IF you have kids.
I discovered my husband was either gay/bisexual after finding craigslist ads (with his nudie photos) on craigslist. I feel deceived and used. I don't associate with liars and users in any other aspects of my life, so I don't want to be friends with him now.
I just want my divorce, to heal, to figure out how I could be so stupid/naive/unseeing, move on, and live a fabulous life without him.
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Posted by BryonM December 7, 2016 11:21 am | #97 |
Wow, when I posted those original links and asked if this could be a sticky post for anyone who wanted information on MoMs that do work and what makes them work, I didn't anticipate the kind of discussion that followed, But it showed how much this discussion, clarification, and defining of terms and boundaries, was needed even if it did get heated and touchy in places. This is what (for me) makes these forums valuable.
One theme I heard through this is something I happen to agree with... somewhat. I can see how some visitors and/or newbies would read some comments and posts and hear bigotry, homophobia, intolerance, negativity and the like. These things exist, and we leak them out in ways we sometimes aren't aware of; we all have biases and prejudices and personal preferences; anyone who denies it is either not being honest or is not self-aware. It's a fact of human nature; it's impossible NOT to have them. The question is whether we recognize them and are aware of them enough to manage them. I have to say that I have read some rather negative and homophobic comments in these forums, and also in the old forum. They might not be expressed in the more vulgar and obvious words such as "fag" or "fairy" or "dyke" or etc. But the idea of it still comes across, even more insidiously, in generalized, blanket statements, like "If their lips are moving, they're lying" and "They're all narcissists and predators who can't be trusted," "mixed orientation marriages aren't real marriages" and so forth.
It's one thing to say "if their lips are moving, they are lying" and it's another thing to say "I knew my gex was lying because her lips were moving." Same idea with "they're all narcissists" and "my gex is a narcissist." I would never have said either of those about my ex because they aren't true and they don't describe her; to my ears, they smack of homophobia when they are made as sweeping generalizations, instead of being used to describe one's own situation.
It seems a bit disingenuous and unhelpful for us to tell ourselves "no, we are not homophobic" when someone from outside tells us we come across that way. That's feedback that we should at least consider before rejecting it outright. We don't always know how we come across. I think a better response would be "give us an example of where you heard us that way so that we can either correct ourselves or explain what we meant." Otherwise it turns into "yes, you are too" and "no, we are not" and nobody learns anything.
My point here is that the words we choose make a difference in how others hear us, and in our heated moments, those are the times to take extra care about what we say and how we say it, and to make sure that what we think we said is what was heard.
Last edited by BryonM (December 7, 2016 11:49 am)
"I have given you my soul, leave me my name!" - John Proctor, The Crucible
"Question everything you've been told; hold fast to what is true and good." - I Thessalonians 5:21
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Posted by whatasham24 December 7, 2016 7:15 pm | #98 |
BryonM: haven't we already hashed this same convo out a number of times here? I see it needs discussing again so here's my 2cents:
Although i don't condone prejudice in any form, and I do kinda raise my eyebrow sometimes by certain recurring remarks from some, I completely understand their lack of 'undying love & support" as they have literally been gutted by the very (type) of person you are expecting them to respect. Yes, generalizations are not cool, but again, given their experience, I understand the bitter. And you know what else isn't cool? Being fucked over mentally & sexually for 5/10/20/40 years.
I'm okay with this site having a "reputation" for negativity. It's not a love fest over here. People are hurting, devastated, flattened with grief, had the rug pulled out from their sometimes DECADES long marriages. To expect sunshine & rainbows from that victim is insane. What does one REALLY expect?! If one is still in the throws of Stockholm Syndrome, they can hop on over to the more "positive & supportive" sites
There are PLENTY of forums & sites for MOMS, ProTG, ProNarc if one is looking for that advice. I personally am bloody grateful for this site. It has literally saved my sanity & probably my life, having support that doesn't lean towards "Fuck your own spirit & sanity, stand by your man" that i have been witness to for the last 10 years on those *other* sites.
I have always been a supporter of LGBT rights. i was raised that way & have naturally passed that on to my own kids. Until a year ago, I was very involved in my city's LGBT community. But guess what, full stop, I have ZERO respect for middle aged trans men. I know what their bullshit dealio is really about. Do I care if that offends them, you or my husband. HELL NO!!!!! Come pay my bills, give me back the last 25 years of my life & we'll talk.
When Him & the Tg MTF community comes clean, outs themselves for what they really are, not the bullshit scam they have been pulling on innocent wives and society and own their abuse, lies, deceit & intentions, I will also come to the table, sword & armour down & hear them out. But as long as they are shovelling their shit my way, boosting each other up on the multitude of TG RahRah sites & promoting their deceit & fraud amongst each other and in doing so, keep their spouses in the dark about their true intentions & growing secret fetishes, I doubt that conversation will ever take place.
Until then, please don't piss on me & tell me it's raining. At the very least, don't act surprised & insulted that the people being pissed all over stand up & call out those doing the pissing.
So please, tell me again how my pain is offensive to you?
Without prejudice,
Sham
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Posted by Dee December 7, 2016 8:01 pm | #99 |
Bravo Sham, bravo!
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Posted by OutofHisCloset December 8, 2016 1:47 pm | #100 |
Bryon and Others,
I have something to say about your/Bryon's posts here and on another thread, and it's this: in both of your posts, Bryon, you ask us to consider others. When we write about our experiences, you say, we should make sure we don't say something that others could take offense at. When our spouses come out to us, you write, you want to know what we could do to encourage this or make it easier on them.
I'm just speaking for myself here, but my reactions to this are the following:
1) I've spent my entire married life encouraging my spouse and making things easier for him, and since he revealed his sexuality, I've spent too much of my time trying to help him think through his feelings. I came to this forum because I want to think about my own situation, express my own feelings, consider my own needs, and to talk with others who have been through what I've been through. In my reading through others' experience, I've seen that putting ourselves in our partner's shoes and trying to do what he can for them is part of a larger pattern, and it accompanies the stage in which we are desperately trying to control the damage and keep our marriages together.
2) I teach at a college at which speech codes and "microagressions" have been hotly debated. It is my observation, experience, and considered opinion that if a slight or a perception of aggression is to be determined by the one who takes offense, then absolutely everything a person says is up for objection. I can never craft my speech to ensure that someone, somewhere, sometime, won't take offense at what I say.
3) Telling me that I should not say how I feel, or express my raw pain, sometimes in ways that convey the rawness and immediacy of that pain, is in effect to tell me that I don't have the right to my emotions and responses, and that in telling others about them, sharing what I feel, I must engage in self censorship for the sake of someone else's feelings. If that's the case, where is the safe place for me to say what I need to say? One reason for this site is to fight the invisibility of the straight spouse's experiences and pain. I say we have a right to our pain and the right to express it even in terms that someone else may not like. If someone doesn't like what I say or how I say it, that person can say so, and then we can have a conversation.
