Thank you for posting WasIBlind and Ellexoh, although I'm sorry you've both found yourselves here. Before getting into the details of your post WasIBlind, I should stress that I am not a mental health professional. I'm simply sharing my personal experience as a gay ex-husband and regular contributor here. That said, I now tend to think that if a wife (or ex-wife) is posting here, this is a very strong indicator that her husband might be gay. Allow me to explain. If you've taken the time to search "Is my husband gay?" on Google, then spend a few days or weeks reading forums like this, then register, find me, and then post yourself, it normally means that you truly believe you husband is gay. So I say trust your intuition.

Now in response to your post:

1. I'm freshly divorced (3 weeks) and it only just occurred to me that the problems in our 32 year relationship/marriage were caused by him being in denial.  I am the poster child for cognitive dissonance as somethings just didn't add up, especially towards the end.  I did a lot of reading about narcissism which matched so many of his abusive behaviors, he truly was the center of the universe.  But it didn't explain everything.  Obviously as I am safely out of the marriage I need to move forward.  But I also want to understand what happened.  I have made lists of his behaviors over the years and would like your opinion if you have the time, thanks.

I wouldn't beat yourself up about the 'cognitive dissonance' or memory loss. It happens to both gay and straight spouses. From what I understand, being with a narcissist is like living in the emotional equivalent of pea-soup fog. Now that you're safely out of the relationship, that fog is thankfully starting to lift. This newfound clarity is likely what brought you here. So I think you're doing very well my friend.   

2. RED FLAGS: Rushed me for sex, awkward and never got much better; I felt invisible most of the time, couldn't figure out why he barely noticed me except to talk all the time about his interests when other men were chasing me down the street to tell me I was beautiful. One time I came home and there was a used condom in the bathroom.  He said the army handed them out and it was just something different to masturbate with. Lots of porn through the years,  also heavy masturbator, daily. Has shaved his chest a couple of times, and his balls.  Said he didn't like all that hair down there, but he didn't fresh shave when he knew we would be together.  Later on I wondered if it was so his hairs didn't get caught in his cock rings.
Would do that thing another poster wrote about where he would lay on his back and pull up his knees - made me very uncomfortable during sex. Kept phone locked up with no messages flashing on screen. In last year, went to gay bar with coworker (openly gay, married to partner) and talked about how attractive men at the bar found him. Went to LA, visited Huntington Beach, and bought a bunch of new  sex toys - prostate stimulator, poppers, anal vibrator, urethral sounder.  Not to use with me, I found them in his private bathroom when the vibrator went off while he was at work.

The lack of interest in sex, porn/masturbation addictions, used condom, gay best friend, anal sex toys, solo travel, and gay sex positions all suggest he's as gay as a rainbow.

​3. I stopped having vaginal intercourse about 11 years ago and we just did oral and manual stimulation, but regularly, once a week. 

I'm not sure if this is accurate. Would it be more accurate to share that "he stopped wanting vaginal intercourse" about 11 years ago? Let me know. Did he also want anal stimulation? This too would suggest he's a gay bottom, or the man receiving anal sex.  

4. I couldn't handle the awkward sex, lost erections, flipping me this way and that and it took forever.  We were young and inexperienced when we got together but sex never got better.  If I made any suggestions no matter how gently, he would get upset or angry.  Eventually it wasn't worth it.

The anger and defensiveness sound a lot like my own gay-in-denial narcissism. I'm sorry you had to go through all of this.

5. Our oldest child came out as transgender 2 months before we decided to separate.  When he left, he told me he didn't believe our child, that they "just needed to get comfortable with themselves."

​​Wow what an *sshole hypocrite.

​6. Not gay: always wanted sex; willingly gave oral, though would head towards the back door sometimes until I stopped him; affectionate as prelude to sex, though not when sex wasn't a possibility; liked my breasts, though they are tiny (AA); not effeminate, big guy, used to think he was handsome - he still thinks he is! Pushed for and attended marriage counseling for my sex issues - but not his big jerk issues. 

​I'm not sure if I'd put these into the "not gay" category myself. First and foremost, these were not your "sex issues." HE was causing all of these problems, not you. Narcissists destroy the lives of those close to them, while playing  victim. It's a bit like punching someone in the face while yelling, "Why did you put your face in front of my fist? Now you've gone and hurt my fist!" If he is a (gay-in-denial) narcissist like I was, he made you and the counsellor believe YOU caused all of these problems which is pure horseshit. He didn't want sex with you. He refused vaginal intercourse. He was cheating. He was masturbating, using sex toys (without you), and putting his legs up in the air. HE'S THE PROBLEM, not you. As for being a big guy and not effeminate, I think we've moved on the from the angel-wing-pride-parade-glitter-queer-queen paradigm. Gay men (and women) come in all shapes, sizes, colours, and degrees of masculinity. So just because he's a burly military dad, doesn't mean he's not gay. As for what he wanted sexually, it sounds like he was using his wife like some f*cked up human sex toy. I can't imagine how awful this must have been for you.

The end of your relationship sounds like the classic narcissistic "discard" phase. (I'm ashamed to share that I was no better, although in my case I left for another man.) From what I understand, narcissists (or narcs) can't stand to be alone because being alone forces us to confront our toxic self-hatred. That's probably why gay men and gay narcs in particular need "beards" or straight wives as cover. Living without you would force us to come out of the closet or confront our deep, dark emotional problems. So we need beards or new partners to avoid this kind of pain. I reckon he sensed the end of your relationship a long time ago, probably around the time you started with the counselling. That's likely when he started love bombing his next victim, planning his move, and so on. The cold and emotionless way he dropped all of you sounds like classic narc modus operandi. I'm sorry you and your kids had to go through all of this.

​So what now? While I don't have a lot of details, it certainly sounds like your ex-husband is gay-in-denial. What's confusing is that he found himself a new beard. A normal person would think, "Why would he marry a woman if he's gay?" I myself am not surprised because it seems like age is often a tipping point. The older the husband, the more entrenched the gay denial seems to be. I myself came out in my 40s, but for every year I lived in denial, it became much harder to actually come out, particularly where children are involved. You mentioned he's now in his 50s and that he's found another beard. This isn't surprising because 45 seems to be a tipping point as to whether a man will actually come out or forever remain in the closet. The younger the gay-in-denial husband, the more likely he'll come out. The older the closeted gay male, the more internalized the homphobia and denial.

I think what you want is closure. Like many other straight spouses, you want confirmation your husband is/was gay and THAT ended your marriage. Given what you've so bravely shared here WasIBlind, he was most likely gay-in-denial. Unfortunately, you should accept that you'll probably never hear "I'm gay" from your ex-husband because he's incapable of coming out and living an authentic life. If he's chosen another "beard" to remain in the closet, he's too far gone in my opinion. So I'd suggest you focus 100% on you, your kids (particularly your trans child), and moving on. This means continuing your therapy, getting the kids counselling, sharing your full story here, and going no contact with your ex-husband. You've done the right thing by divorcing and he's done you a favour by moving away and getting into a new relationship. He's now her responsibility, not yours.

​I hope that helps my friend. Please feel free to write again if you have additional questions.   

 

Last edited by Sean (September 9, 2017 6:27 am)

Sean, thank you for the thoughtful reply.    You are right about seeking closure, he even snarled "what, you want closure?!"at me the last night he was in the home.  After so many years of trying, forgiving, standing by his side, moving away from family and friends repeatedly, dealing with what I now know are abusive behaviors, and spending years in counseling working on my part in our problems, yeah, I thought I wanted to know I mattered somewhat.

You asked for clarification on who stopped intercourse - it was ultimately me.  I went off birth control for health reasons, and the relief at not having clumsy awkward sex was immense.  There was no real decision, and like I said, I didn't leave him totally frustrated.

I spoke of cognitive dissonance before.  My role in this was that I desperately wanted to be a stay at home mom to my two kids, both high need kids in their own way.  I homeschooled for 10 years - facing the problems would have meant leaving, leaving would have meant throwing my sensitive older child into school to go back to work and putting my youngest, with severe impulse control issues, in daycare.  The stakes were high and I got very good at denial.  A close family member got cancer and eventually passed away during this time. I was profoundly alone and living far from home in an isolated location as the problems escalated.

He pushed for more sex, different sex, better sex while leaving me to run everything in our lives.  He worked, did his hobbies, got home whenever he got home, and wanted sex.  Because I so strongly suspect GID now, I feel that he blamed me for not keeping him from being gay.  That if I only did this or that, he wouldn't struggle.  Why not?  He blamed me for everything else.  I felt like such a failure when his "interest" flagged even though he wanted it so bad.  If I was too tired, he would get out of bed, go look at porn, and take care of himself.  Thank you for recognizing that I felt like a sex toy.  I could barely admit that to myself as it would have been disloyal to think so poorly of my husband.

So here's the real kicker.  I wanted to know, based on my previous lists, if he was potentially gay (as a rainbow, apparently!).  Because he tested positive for HIV last year, and I was expected to believe that he had no idea how it happened.  That it was probably related to travel he'd done overseas.  But we couldn't discuss it and he grew more desperate for sex.  I tested negative, thanks to no penetration probably.  And lest you all think he's a complete monster by now, he burst into tears and hugged me when my results were negative.

So he had reason to fear being alone.  I don't begrudge him a new relationship, beard or not, but I am still reeling from the cruel way he has treated me up to the divorce, and more subtly the kids.  The lies he told then forced me to see that he has probably lied extensively our whole marriage.  And I am gaining clarity with each passing day.  I was too afraid of his anger, of the consequences of leaving, of breaking up our dysfunctional family because heck, it was all we had.   

Putting a name to my experiences helps me to stop ruminating so much. After all, I now get to actually plan my future, I'm not just along for the ride!

Lastly, we have 4 therapists between the 3 of us, plus my marriage counselor still checks in.  So we are in good hands and already healing.  This forum has been the key to cracking the denial that held me back, many thanks to all.

Thank you for posting everyone. In reply:

​1. Ellexoh: So......this pulling up the knees is a "gay sex position"....?​

A man pulling up his knees during sex to give his wife access to his anus/anal cavity would suggest this ain't his first rodeo. If your gay-in-denial husband has a fascination with receiving anal stimulation through sex toys for example, this means he's likely discovered his prostate gland...or the male clitoris. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that if your husband is asking you to act like a man in bed through the use of strap ons, dildos, or other toys, he's very likely a gay bottom (or the "receiver" in gay sex).   

​2. WasIBlind shared: You asked for clarification on who stopped intercourse - it was ultimately me.  I went off birth control for health reasons, and the relief at not having clumsy awkward sex was immense.  There was no real decision, and like I said, I didn't leave him totally frustrated.

​Understood. Thanks for the clarification.

3. I spoke of cognitive dissonance before.  My role in this was that I desperately wanted to be a stay at home mom to my two kids, both high need kids in their own way.  I homeschooled for 10 years - facing the problems would have meant leaving, leaving would have meant throwing my sensitive older child into school to go back to work and putting my youngest, with severe impulse control issues, in daycare.  The stakes were high and I got very good at denial.  A close family member got cancer and eventually passed away during this time. I was profoundly alone and living far from home in an isolated location as the problems escalated.

Gosh it sounds like absolute hell. I'm so sorry you and your kids had to go through this. I'd read up on narcissism as I believe it's a common narcissistic tool to isolate their partners.

4. He pushed for more sex, different sex, better sex while leaving me to run everything in our lives.  He worked, did his hobbies, got home whenever he got home, and wanted sex.  Because I so strongly suspect GID now, I feel that he blamed me for not keeping him from being gay.  That if I only did this or that, he wouldn't struggle.  Why not?  He blamed me for everything else.  I felt like such a failure when his "interest" flagged even though he wanted it so bad.  If I was too tired, he would get out of bed, go look at porn, and take care of himself.  Thank you for recognizing that I felt like a sex toy.  I could barely admit that to myself as it would have been disloyal to think so poorly of my husband.

​Be as disloyal as you want. You no longer need to defend him, nor deny what a monster he was during your marriage. And take it from me, he was a complete nightmare. If you want proof, just re-read what you shared...

5. So here's the real kicker.  I wanted to know, based on my previous lists, if he was potentially gay (as a rainbow, apparently!).  Because he tested positive for HIV last year, and I was expected to believe that he had no idea how it happened.  That it was probably related to travel he'd done overseas.  But we couldn't discuss it and he grew more desperate for sex.  I tested negative, thanks to no penetration probably.  And lest you all think he's a complete monster by now, he burst into tears and hugged me when my results were negative.

If you ever needed confirmation that he was gay-in-denial and cheated on you, getting AIDS is more than enough confirmation. And yes I still believe he's a complete monster. In time you will probably go through an angry phase and I say have at it. Why? Because you seem to have lots of terrible memories to digest after spending decades with such an abusive husband. Let's look at this a different way. What you shared is similar to, "Before you think he's a complete *sshole, he did hug me after he shot me in the leg." You did the right thing divorcing this man and I can only imagine how hard it must have been. Your husband could have given you a life-threatening STD, all because he didn't have the b*lls to come out of the closet. I can only hope his new girlfriend knows he's HIV positive. Well that's their problem now.  

6. ...I am still reeling from the cruel way he has treated me up to the divorce, and more subtly the kids.  The lies he told then forced me to see that he has probably lied extensively our whole marriage.  And I am gaining clarity with each passing day.  I was too afraid of his anger, of the consequences of leaving, of breaking up our dysfunctional family because heck, it was all we had...After all, I now get to actually plan my future, I'm not just along for the ride! Lastly, we have 4 therapists between the 3 of us, plus my marriage counselor still checks in.  So we are in good hands and already healing.  This forum has been the key to cracking the denial that held me back, many thanks to all.

​[CAUTION: This is a pretty graphic response so you might not want to read it.] Well said! Yes I too believe he lied to you from the beginning. For example, you don't just catch AIDS casually walking through downtown Manila. While I'm HIV/Aids negative myself, I know a few details about the disease although I'm not an expert. For example, I believe it's extremely hard to catch as the disease can't be transmitted via casual contact such as hand-holding or kissing. You're also more likely to catch herpes than AIDS from oral sex because HIV/AIDS is so hard to transmit. Most gay men catch it because they are on the receiving end (meaning penetrated) by another man who already has AIDS and ejaculates in the anus. And most men who eventually catch the disease repeatedly have unprotected sex with infected partners. From what I understand, while there are cases of people catching AIDS after a random hook up, it's rarely a "one time" thing meaning you require repeated exposure before catching HIV. Put bluntly, your husband must have chosen to have unprotected sex frequently before catching AIDS. Similarly, you shared in a previous post that he'd purchased a sex toy called a urethral sound. [TRIGGER ALERT] I believe this is a stainless steel bar that's inserted into his urethra or pee-hole. To me, that suggests he was into some pretty hard core stuff which I don't believe he learned on his own. I reckon he's been to a lot of gay saunas and sex clubs to get into that kind of kink. Anyhow, my point is that your former husband chose to continue having sexual relations with you, even when he suspected he might have a life-threatening sexually transmitted disease. With regards to the hug, that's like getting a hug after he's blown up your house and realizes you weren't in it. If he isn't a monster, frankly I don't know what is. And this from a gay ex-husband who also did some terrible sh*t.

​​I hope that doesn't sting too much AmIBlind but I felt the need to respond. Please keep posting, going to therapy, and sharing your story as you're helping countless other straight spouses who are also considering divorce. I applaud your courage. Please feel free to continue posting here or on your own thread. Be well my friend.

Last edited by Sean (September 11, 2017 11:50 am)

Hi OOHC, thanks for that post, I feel much the same, these men are not women and pretending to be is insulting!

But can I ask you more, purely because I still don't really understand and your husband has admitted and described it to you whereas mine is in full denial and now declares himself normal so I can't get at the detail around feminisation. You say your husband rejects ejaculation - but that doesn't mean he doesn't ejaculate? Is this why autogynephiles also seem to be into chastity devices so that they can't ejaculate? Mine barely ever ejaculated with me but I'm sure he did alone, eventually after hours of humiliation and femdom porn (or edging).

I'm just interested, curious for detail because I still can't get my head around it. Please PM me if you feel more comfortable chatting that way. I'm so glad you're here.

Thank you Duped and OOHC for your recent posts. With regards to OOHC's post (see above) regarding transgendered husbands, points taken my friend! I apologize if I offended or triggered you in any way. Here is a revised version of my statement with the changes marked in red:

1. Ellexoh: So......this pulling up the knees is a "gay sex position"....?​

A man pulling up his knees during sex to give his wife access to his anus/anal cavity would suggest this ain't his first rodeo. If your gay-in-denial husband has a fascination with receiving anal stimulation through sex toys for example, this means he's likely discovered his prostate gland...or the male g-spot. I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that if your husband is asking you to act like a man in bed through the use of strap ons, dildos, or other toys, he's very likely a gay bottom (the "receiver" in gay sex) or perhaps transgendered.   

​Let me know of the revisions address your concerns and, if not, please feel free to post your own reply to Ellexoh's  question: "This pulling up the knees [during sex] is a gay sex position?" Thanks again for posting.