Thank you Lily for your kind note. I appreciate you and your fellow members as well! In response to Abby's last post:

1. What I realized after my ex left was that close as he was with his mother he actually resented her. After her death he had issues with his sister. It seemed to be because they were women.

​It's certainly possible Abby. Families and gay men are different. I myself remain very close to my mom, my sister, my aunt, and female cousins.  

2. I've come to believe that his problems with me were not only because he was attracted to men and was married to me (and me wanting sex) but that he had (has?) an aversion to women in general. He always had more women friends than men prior to coming out but that probably was because he wasn't interested in sports and other male pursuits. Plus men probably would have spotted that he was gay.

​I'm not an expert on the subject but I'm happy to share my own experience. I too had mostly female friends in high school. When I did have straight male friends, it was in a very exclusive way...almost as if we were a couple or at least I thought of us as a couple. I played sports but not the kinds of sports like hockey, baseball or football, that would have made me part of a team.  

3. What I am trying to say is that he needed women but he had some anger towards them, I don't know if this is common with gay-in-denial men but since we are mostly women here perhaps your feelings about women in general are something to think about.

Interesting. I think my anger towards my (then) wife was just a projection of my own burning self-hatred. It was kind of, "I hate you for staying with me...but PLEASE STAY." As I shared in a previous post, near the end of our relationship she constantly asked me if I was angry at her. Looking back, I think I was just angry/frustrated in general because I was closeted. Tragically took it out on the person who loved me the most, my wife. I was like a teen lashing out at a patient and loving mom.

​Thanks for sharing Abby. Interesting stuff.

Re Abby's comment above primarily, I too thought my husband had/has deep seated anger and resentment for women.  In the early years of our relationship/marriage he often expressed anger and resentment toward his mother and sister.  Initially I did not know either of those people well (we were in another state), and I got the impression from him that they had both been very harsh and critical toward him, and that he felt unsupported and encouraged by them.  At first I just blindly believed his complaints and assumed that they had not been particularly nice to him and then felt sympathy and got caught up in some of that  "wounded animal" thing that some women can get into about men who tell you sob stories.  At the time, "gay" was never even a possibility there in my mind.

I was not firmly aware that my husband was gay at the time we divorced.  It was he who wanted the divorce and at that time he was going on about how harsh and "hypercritical" I was; how I always had to have my own way, etc.  Again, "gay" did not enter my mind, although I did hear an echo of those complaints he had made about his mother, sister, grandmother, and aunts throughout our time together.  I came to the conclusion that he just had some sort of deep seated anger toward women and that that was a big part of our problem.  I even told a counselor we were seeing at the time that I thought my husband just really did not like women in general and harbored some sort of exceptional resentment toward them.  Again "gay" never came up with me or the counselor/psychiatrist. (This is one reason I am very wary of people in our situations seeking counseling.)

All of that was many years ago now.  I had been divorced for years before I finally concluded without a doubt that my husband was gay and that that is why he had wanted the divorce so badly.  The thought had come up from time to time during the marriage, and I even brought it up with him a few times, but he always denied it, and I just accepted his answer and assumed our problems stemmed from something else - sometimes thinking it was this general resentment of women that he seemed to have.  (None the less, like Sean said above, he had lots of women "friends" and on the surface seemed to get along better with women than men.  When push came to shove, though, he always stood up for, felt for, and defended men on a much deeper and serious level.)

We had two daughters and after the first one was born, he told me he was glad that we had had a girl, because he felt that he would not have been a good father for a boy.  I always remembered him saying that and filed it away as "odd" or even a red flag of some kind, but never pursued  much, just why he might have said that.  With hindsight, I think he honestly did not think it was as important to be a good father to a girl as it would have been for a boy, because of this general lack of connection and appreciation for women.  He became furious with me when I became pregnant with our second child (it was all MY fault) who also turned out to be a girl (years ago and the sex was not always known ahead of time).  It was after that that I noticed him distancing himself more and more and within just a few years he started suggesting that he might want to have "his own little place" somewhere.

He did not do much in the way of helping at all when his mother became ill and died, leaving most of the work to his sister. He had been more involved with his father's death, but also left a lot of that to his sister.  I also remember a time when we visited his mother at an assisted living facility during her last couple of years, and by that time she was wearing incontinent briefs, using a walker, and not all that chipper.  At one point he actually said something to me about not really wanting to be there, not really feeling any need to continue to visit and maintain a relationship, largely because as he said, his mother "wasn't fun anymore".  Inside I was extremely taken aback and disappointed, but just felt paralyzed in a certain sense.  I was there out of state with just him, and it seemed like all I could do was go with the flow.  Not a time to get into it about how cold and callous he was acting toward his own mother.

Our daughters are well into their 30's now, but rarely if ever speak to me.  They continue to be "possessed" by an unrealistic and desperate sort of "daddy worship" and I believe it is because they struggle internally and perhaps un/subconciously with his attitudes towards women.  I wonder if they have not sensed on some level his feelings that it would have been more important to be a good father to a boy than it is to a girl.  I think his attitude is also part of the reason he has been able to trash me to our daughters and to discourage them from having a relationship with me.  I think that his attitudes towards women in general, along with their own struggles to connect with and feel good about him as a father, are the main contributors to my daughters not wanting to have a relationship with me.  I think they keep trying and trying and trying to connect with him and convince themselves that he is this wonderful fabulous father and that all of the family problems stem from my being so harsh, hypercritical, and uncaring as he tells it.  I can't help but get a "who are you trying to convince" sense about my daughters when it comes to their father worship.  It is over the top and a "methinks thou dost protest too much" sort of thing - Dad can do no wrong, Mom can do no right.  They seem to think that if I was not in the picture and had not been so "awful" they would be fine and good with him.  I do not think they are ready to accept the reality that their father just isn't into women of any sort (mothers, daughters, wives, aunts, grandmothers) as much as he is men.

Whether this is a "gay man" thing or something unique to my former husband I do not know, but I am coming to believe that there is something about gay men in general that is completely disconnected from women collectively and prevents truly deep and caring connections, whether it be romantic, parental, or otherwise.

I have known and enjoyed "friend" relationships with gay men over the years, as have other women that I know.  There is that "thing" about gay men and straight women being able to connect in a certain way with lots of chat and "dishing" about others and life in general.  I know that connection with gay men well and have to say I thoroughly enjoy it.  It can be enjoyed so much that one is tempted to call these gay men "friends" and to even feel that there is some kind of special connection because of this fun and superficial engagement that gay men and straight women can have.

I have a straight female friend who claims  the "boy next door" (literally) whom she grew up with and who is gay, her "best friend", because they go out together from time to time for dinner or a movie or something and to "dish" about all the people they used to know in their neighborhood and school etc.  I have never said anything to her, but I truly question the idea of him being her "best" friend.  I strongly suspect that while he likes her and enjoys their outings together, he would completely bail on her if she ever was in a serious bind and looked to him for serious support - the kind of support you would get from a "best" friend.  

I have come to believe that the gay men I have known in my life, while being lots of fun and providing a lot of laughs and companionship at times, would be gone in a flash if I ever called them to come and get me and help with something like a car break down.  I think that if I called a gay male "friend" at a time like that I would get something like, "Oh honey, that's terrible, I'm so sorry for you and I hope you get everything taken care of" and then if you asked if they could come help out, you'd get a "Can't you call so and so?" or "What about someone in your family?"  It would be the, "Oh so sorry, but gotta go" kind of thing.  That is not a "best" friend, and I'm not even sure it qualifies as "friend" at all.  I am at the point where I truly believe that straight women and gay men can/will only ever have superficial and "fun" relationships.  While that is OK and even nice to have at certain times, I think it is important to never expect anything more, whether these gay men turn out to be actual husbands or just "friends" or even fathers..  It will never be more than fun and fluff, amusing and enjoyable as that can be.  I think this also goes pretty much for gay men's relationships with female relatives.  As long as it is fun and lighthearted they are they for women, but when things get serious, painful, and stressful they take flight or turn on you.  It was my need for help with the more "serious" aspects of life and marriage that really seemed to irritate my former husband, and would set him off about how he just couldn't stand being with me, etc.  Likewise, he was always a "good" father when it was fun and games with our daughters, but when things got serious about college planning, careers, "boyfriend issues", even routine discipline, etc.  he freaked out, did not want to get involved, did not contribute much at all, and would turn on and blame me for any family discord that arose over serious matters.  He was happy to take them on outings, read to them, watch movies with them, but forget the serious stuff - that would have required a deep connection, and he simply does not have that with any females, and I believe it is because he is gay.

For privacy reasons I don't want to say a lot about what I do for work, but part of my job takes me out frequently to small businesses operated by all kinds of people, some gay men.  I have flexibility in when I visit these different places, and I have found that on Friday afternoons when I want to wind down, and have an easy afternoon, I often choose to go to the places run by gay men, because I know they will have me in stitches with their gay humor (sarcastic sass) and general way when we approach our business issues.  I also like to visit the gay male run businesses when I am having a down day and am not up to the more difficult aspects of my work.  Same thing - I know it will be uplifting and that all of the humor, gossip, and dishing will be fun for me and get those natural anti-depressants in my brain flowing.  I will leave those locations in a much better mood, usually smiling to myself about something that was said and enjoyed.  That is all good and I can "almost" consider these men my "friends"; never "best friends" but almost friends.  The thing is, I know now that these relationships whether through business or personal connections, no matter how seemingly enjoyable and fun they can be, will never, ever be more than that.  Just some fun time sharing "girl talk" for lack of a better term - sharing that kind of connection that women have with each other, but it is not even that.  It is simply a few minutes or couple of hours of a pleasant and often humorous banter - time that will never be anything more than that.  If I ever asked any of these men if they could put me up for couple of days, help me move, or listen to a very real and serious "emotional dump" they would turn and run like bats out of hell.  As before, they would try to shove me off on someone else, or turn on me.  It is a myth that gay men are "friends" with straight women".  They are sometimes fun and enjoyable acquaintances and that is all.

Sean's comment about just what personal need he might be filling by being here, since most of us are women, seems interesting to me in this regard.  

Hi to you too, Lily,

I think it probably varies from person to person like everything else, but I do think there is some sort of connection that is missing between gay men and straight women.  As I re-read what I wrote I am thinking that it might not even be that there is a lot of harboring of anger and resentment toward women, it might just simply be the consequence of not having that same connection that straight men have with women, be it romantic, friendly, or familial/otherwise.

I often wonder if my daughters aren't actually trying to make a certain connection with their father, just like I did.  It seems they may be looking for a certain something that they just can't find and that they think if they keep trying it will magically appear somehow.  They have a relationship with him and get along, but they seem to keep searching for a missing something.  I wonder if daughters of gay men feel that "something off" as daughters, just like their mothers do as wives.  If so, it seems they will just have to discover that that "certain something" will just never be there in a parental way, just as that "certain something" was never there for me in a spousal way.

I know what you mean about some gay men being willing to help out at times, and I think that many of them really do genuinely care for their female relatives and friends, but it is a different sort of relationship.

My eldest daughter (30) sees what her father did as extremely disrespectful to me and totally shameful. She has good friends who are gay & says she'll NEVER EVER tell them "our story" as they are extremely respectful to and about women. My other daughter totally empathesis with her father, is way more supportive of him than me & posted a gushing Father's Day message saying he's the best father a girl could ever ask for. Personally I feel that's not giving her husband much of a standard to achieve as a husband or father. The difference in their attitudes is polar opposites.

My STBX was and no doubt still is very respectful and thoughtful of his mother, in fact once he saw she loved him unconditionally he got more and more outwardly confident and narcissistic, he was somewhat reserved and contrite(ish) until her attitude towards him was known.

Thank you everyone for sharing. My children's initial reaction was mixed. The youngest kids didn't quite understand and so initially they seemed fine with it. Only later did they start to understand what this meant. My eldest understood right away and has had the hardest time with it. I myself am starting to understand the gravity of my decision to come out, separate, and divorce. It's taken me a few years to get here and a lot of posting to see things from my ex-wife's perspective.

I've just come across a series of posts from Stonehouse that struck me. She asked some questions on this thread back in March. Here is her latest post:

1. I've discovered a series of websites dedicated to helping men with porn addiction. They explain that since smart phones and high speed Internet came along, access to porn is now so easy and fast that straight men quickly desensitize to hetero porn, and have to move on to other genres, including gay porn, to be aroused. These sites argue that this is causing men to question their orientations, but that if they stop viewing porn for a period of time, their brain wiring returns to their original orientation, be it gay or straight. I'm confused about this, and contemplating divorce because of my husbands online Craigslist surfing, which he explained away as porn addiction. Do you all think desensitization to porn would have someone viewing gay Craigslist ads daily for weeks on end?"

As someone who has overcome a porn addiction, I'm happy to share my opinion. What she's referring to is something called homosexual obsessive compulsive disorder or "HOCD." It's when someone no longer gets aroused from watching straight porn because he/she has become desensitized to it. So they start to watch porn outside of their normal sexuality which can mean watching anything from violent pornography to gay pornography. I am a gay man and have no interest whatsoever in women nor their bodies. Near the end of my own porn addiction, I started watching straight porn because it was the only thing that aroused me.  

2. I'm also considering seeing a new therapist who counsels spouses on sex addiction, but I wonder if she will try to convince me that there is nothing to this, that it is all just a symptom of his porn addiction, not an orientation issue. I appreciate any thoughts or advice, as always! We had done a lot of couples counseling before I discovered anything. Then once I did (I found his prior 6 weeks of online, 85% male, porn history, though no emails or texts) he said looking at men was just part if his porn viewing and the result of a porn addiction (and my lack of connection to him).

These are all red flags in my opinion. It sounds like Stonehouse is about to go to therapy for him ​which suggests  caretaking or co-dependent tendencies. He should be in therapy for sex addiction, not her. You can't go the gym so that someone else loses weight. He has to want to change, get better, and heal. If he's not doing the work, then it's time to consider separation. With regards to what he's saying, namely "I'm just curious, I'm not gay" there is a difference between passively watching gay porn from time to time and actively seeking hook ups on Craigslist. Yes it's possible that porn addiction could lead him to watch male-on-male videos. But what he's not sharing is that most straight porn addicts who sometimes watch gay porn are completely repulsed by the idea of having sex with other men. Some of them do try gay sex and are disgusted by it because no matter how much porn you watch, it's not going to change your hard-wired sexuality.  

3. I then saw another therapist who specializes in mixed orientation marriage who basically called BS on this.

​I agree. My feeling has always been that if he's on Craigslist, it's more than just curiosity. As your therapist may have already told you, there is a huge difference between curiously watching gay porn and actively hooking up with other men. Gay-in-denial husbands often identify as heterosexual, after all that's why we marry women and have children, and yet we are almost always sexually gay. This means being married to a woman but only having sex with me.   

​4. I've since been making baby steps towards separation, with my husband saying I'm using this all as an excuse to leave. I feel guilt because we have 2 kids too. I then found these sites saying the abundance of free online porn can cause men to gravitate from hetero to gay porn because of the need for more and more atypical (for them) stuff over time.

The blaming, guilt trips, and projection all sound like gay-in-denial narcissism. Yes porn addicts may watch porn outside of their sexuality, however, they almost never act on it. If your husband no longer has sex with women (including his wife) and hooks up with other men via Craigslist, he's gay.

​5. So now I've spent the last 6 months mentally planning for divorce, but find myself confused. I thought a sex addiction therapist might help me understand my husband more, but I'm afraid she might say "yes it is just a porn addiction, here's how you can help" when what I really need/want is certainty that divorce is the right direction."

Question: what is Stonehouse's husband doing to overcome his porn addiction and be a better husband/father? It sounds like she's doing all of the work while he's doing nothing. What she's described may be the bargaining (or limbo) stage before separation and divorce. We've all been there. If she's not quite ready to divorce, I'd suggest a trial separation. Many gay-in-denial husbands have claimed, "porn is making me do this." Let's assume he's right. Then logically if he stops watching porn, he'll revert back to being heterosexual which will make him a better husband and father.

​During this process, you can ask to separate while he gets therapy and joins Porn Addicts Anonymous. He can come back once he's healed and ready to be a real husband, which means lots of sex with his lovely wife and being a good father to his children. My point is a straight man who loves his wife would take active steps to show he wants to overcome his addiction and have a better relationship with his spouse. A gay-in-denial husband denies, lies, projects, and does nothing to improve the relationship. I hope that helps in some small way my friends.