OurPath (formerly SSN) Open Forum » A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Gunther Horst · June 7, 2017 7:35 pm

As I've shared in previous posts, I believe that many gay-in-denial husbands (GIDHs) develop narcissistic personality disorder (NPD) as a coping mechanism.

This needs some clarification, I believe. Not to offend any but to define terms that are being used.

I understand why the statement sounds true, but as an experienced psychiatrist or psychologist will tell you, persons do not "develop" personality disorders as "coping mechanisms." That is a misunderstanding or misrepresentation of personality disorder and coping mechanism. In addition, there is little agreeing how and why some develop personality disorders but not others. There seem to be physiological explanations as well as environmental causes.

I do not question the behaviors and activities of spouses described in these conversations, and nor do I not doubt the experiences of any that I have read here. I've seen and heard them, and even worse stories. But I am concerned about terminology to categorize these behaviors, as it leads often to the wrong "cure" and prolongs the misery and confusion. A diagnosis of disordered personality should not be made light of, the long term consequences are profound. To be accurate, ideally it will be done by a psychiatrist or licensed psychologist face to face. I have experience in drug addiction centers with gay, straight and bi patients, and their families, and personality disorders are no more common or less in the gay population as anywhere - closeted or out and open.

Let me start by defining what a personality disorder is and is not - it is not a mental illness and it is not a disease. It is a set of behavior traits that are extreme and observable, out of the ordinary, causing impairment in social and occupation functioning. That is the clinical definition in the broad terms. Typically, the best to be done is to teach them to identify their emotions so they can manage their behaviors, and help the people nearest to them learn techniques to deal with them, but the traits underlying them are always there and not far below the surface. It wastes time to point out the harmful effects their behaviors have on other people, they have to make the connection between their own behaviors and how their behaviors impact on themselves - and this takes a long time, not always successful.

The defining characteristics common to all personality disorders are pervasive, persistent, and resist treatment. These are not "diseases" per se and they are also not something that one "recovers" from in the medical or mental health sense. The personality disorder is shorthand to describe who that person IS as a person; it is a mistake to think of it as something that he has developed or that can be treated or cured or that goes away. Likewise, one does not become a recovered narcissist, or a recovered paranoid or borderline personality. That would be like saying "Robert has been cured of being Robert, because he is Richard now."

Particularly, the mark of narcissistic personality disorder is not deceitfulness or hiding or keeping secrets or being cruel (although those can be by-products of this). The narcissist's drive is to be adored and worshipped, and he achieves it by exaggerating about himself, not by hiding himself. They want attention, they need to be put on the pedestal, center-stage with acclaims and all eyes on them. They believe that only others who are as special as they themselves, should associate with them, and will be able to understand them. They think themselves bigger than they are, like a frog who puffs himself up. Narcissists make absurd and often preposterous claims about themselves, but no backup or proof. They don't want to be covered up, they must be in the spotlight. Hiding defeats that and they react strongly to being kept out of the light, or worse seeing someone else in the spotlight that is theirs by right. Hiding behind someone is the anti-thesis of that. In their minds, there is no reason to be hiding, because they are superior, and they do no wrong, and if others don't recognize their talents, it's their loss.

It's also something of the wrong word to say narcissists do not empathize. Empathy means to feel what someone else is feeling too; sympathy means to express a similarity of feeling. Empathy is internal, sympathy is external. Please don't confuse these. The narcissist is able to empathize - they feel what you are feeling - much so, in fact. It's how they are able to manipulate and push you. If they weren't able to empathize, they wouldn't be able to push your buttons - they wouldn't know which buttons to push. They feel your feelings well enough to know how to use them against you when they need to. Remember that applause drives them and if you don't give them that, watch out. What they don't feel is sympathy. They won't feel sorry for you, not when you haven't been applauding them. But they feel when you're feeling insecure, unsure of yourself, without confidence but they don't always respond with sympathy. Keep empathy and sympathy apart, that will give you power when they are putting on an act which you can now see through. Then decide whether or not to applaud them again - and that is what will give you power over a true narcissist, if that is what you're dealing with. He needs attention. He prefers applause, but he will permit booing if he must - that's attention still - but he can't tolerate to be ignored or unnoticed or under-valued, and "marked down."

People with a personality disorder have a difficult time remaining hidden, because they are not able to control their impulses - they are hardly aware of them. They do not carry the masquerade for long, as it becomes obvious to people soon enough. One of the most reliable diagnostic indicators of a personality disorder is precisely that: everyone notices that something is "off" with that person, even if they can't figure out what is "off" about them. But the initial charm wears off, usually quickly, and people notice it. It's not that they cease trying to be charming, it's that people start to see through his veil that he is not real. When the mask no longer works, he seeks a new source of applause.

That one of the coping mechanisms for a closeted gay person is to hide and deny himself, from external or internal pressure, is correct. But if those pressures are removed yhen the coping mechanisms are no longer needed and that is what the coming out process really is. The need to hide is taken away and they no longer need a coping mechanism. So a closeted gay person who finally comes out is the opposite of a personality disorder - he has made a conscious decision to make a change. Personality disordered persons don't have that conscious capability.

This is not to suggest that personality disorders do not exist in the gay population. Certainly they do, but in no more quantity than in the general population. The closeted gay person who is also a narcissist, is still going to be a narcissist after he comes out. It's possible that his narcissism will motivate him to come out - because coming out can provide attention to him.

The problem issue is to assume causation - that personality disorders can be started or brought on as a coping mechanism, that the state of being gay and having to lie about it causes the personality disorder to develop. That is contrary to the definition of personality disorder. A gay person might be closeted and hiding, and also have a personality disorder at the same time, but one does not create the other. It's more common that a personality disorder was already present before the closeted behavior began, and being closeted on top of that exacerbates the personality disorder. But they are separate issues; to make an analogy, they are separate and distinct as diabetes and lung cancer. They might co-esxist in the same body at the same time, but it's misleading to think one is caused by the other. They are separate issues, and even if they exacerbate each other, they should be diagnosed and dealt with separately.

I hope this is received in the spirit intended, to clarify some terms that are used clinically. What happens is still the same as what happens, but the explanations in the wording is not quite accurate.

Séan · June 8, 2017 1:58 am

Thank you very much for sharing all of this Gunther. I appreciate the information you provided which was very helpful...and clarifying. I have two questions with regards to gay-in-denial spouses married to straight people:

1. Are we born with personality disorders?

Given what you shared, I've been wrongly writing that narcissism is the result of being closeted whereas you've written that we're born with personality disorders. This makes sense and I'm inclined to agree with you. Perhaps narcissistic personality disorder (or NPD) and similar disorders are hard-wired, like alcoholism or drug addictions. And like addictions, the individual with NPD can acknowledge the disorder and change his/her behaviour, but can never be cured of the underlying disorder. Are these fair statements?

2. How would you define the behaviours of gay-in-denial spouses?

Given my own experience and what I've read about here, most gay-in-denial husbands demonstrate a number of NPD behaviours such as exaggerated self-importance, dishonesty, gaslighting their partners, hoovering, emotional manipulation, extreme sensitivity etc. Are they narcissists who just happen to be closeted or does the closet exaggerate their NPD behaviours?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

Foolme · June 8, 2017 6:22 am

Hi Sean, you say you're a recovering narcissist, well done on acknowledging this behaviour and working on yourself but can I ask were you the type of person who craved, in fact NEEDED to be centre of attention? That's the only trait I struggle with seeing in my STBX. I can give examples to back up all the other typical narcissistic traits. My STBX shied away from people in general I guess, all because of his double life, he built a wall up so no one could break it down.God knows I tried and repeatedly got attack is the best form of defence or the silent treatment when I tried to tackle issues.You learn to give up and not bother to keep the status quo. Even when out with other couples I was constantly trying to bring him into the circle, include him, as often happens the guys gather together & the gals gather separately. I always felt he was less comfortable when this happened, as if he could be melt into the background in mixed company better.

Can one have narcissistic traits and not have full blown narcissistic personality disorder?

phoenix · June 8, 2017 11:13 am

Perhaps I've misunderstood some of the prior conversation, but I don't think I agree that Narcissism is a personality disorder that a person must be born with.

I think people learn to interact with the world around them in such a way as to maximize their benefit in that environment. If a person feels they have a weakness (ie. knowledge of their homosexuality would compromise the way of life they wish to achieve or maintain) they will do their best to keep that a secret. To do this, most find that they need to manipulate the people closest to them in order hide the truth.

I think Narcissism can certainly be a personality disorder that is born into a person (like dependency). But I think it can be a learned behavior as well.

phoenix · June 8, 2017 11:14 am

JenS wrote:
We need to be mindful to post things that help straight spouses move forward with their lives, as Sean has done with this thread. That's really the point of this entire forum anyhow and we need to keep it relevant and helpful and true to its purpose. Gunther, perhaps you could start a new thread and offer up analysis and help to straight spouses using your professional training.

This is a great point JenS. Let's be mindful to keep things on track and helpful.

Séan · June 8, 2017 1:57 pm

Thank you JenS, Foolme, Phoenix Byron,Gunther and others for sharing. All opinions are welcome, provided we keep this thread secular and our tone respectful. If you're new to this thread and haven't read the full exchange of messages over the past few days, we've been debating whether gay-in-denial spouses are narcissists. Here is a rather good definition of narcissism: http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/narcissistic-personality-disorder/basics/symptoms/con-20025568. I believe my own narcissism was a toxic form of self-hatred because I was gay. So while I pretended to be the best father, husband, and upstanding member of the community, it was nothing but an act. As I've shared in the past, I am not a mental health professional so please read my opinions accordingly. All of my knowledge about narcissism comes from my own history as a gay-in-denial husband (or GIDH). With that in mind, Foolme wrote:

1. Can I ask were you the type of person who craved, in fact NEEDED to be centre of attention?

Yes.

2. That's the only trait I struggle with seeing in my STBX. I can give examples to back up all the other typical narcissistic traits. My STBX shied away from people in general I guess, all because of his double life, he built a wall up so no one could break it down.

Was he different at work or with a certain group of people? Maybe he was just playing withdrawn and tortured to manipulate you. This duality describes me as well. I had two speeds: full-on charmer or sulking Mr. Silent Treatment. What I needed was immediate approval from others (often referred to as "supply"). If there was even a hint of disapproval or reproach, I'd shut down. Given what you described, I think your husband was doing the same thing. He was winning love, approval, and appreciate from someone when he sulked: you. For most of my life, I would emotionally manipulate others to do what I wanted by whatever means. I think this is why so many GIDHs use the "I was molested which made me gay...but never mentioned it to you in 20 years of marriage" bullsh*t as a final attempt to emotionally manipulate their wives. I'd like others to share their opinions but I think the difference between me while in the closet and now is this: back then I was always calculating. Everything I said or did was to appear perfect, keep my wife as a beard, and stay in the closet.

2. God knows I tried and repeatedly got attack is the best form of defence or the silent treatment when I tried to tackle issues.

That sounds like something a gay-in-denial (GID) narcissist would do.

3. You learn to give up and not bother to keep the status quo.

Sad but true.

4. Even when out with other couples I was constantly trying to bring him into the circle, include him, as often happens the guys gather together & the gals gather separately. I always felt he was less comfortable when this happened, as if he could be melt into the background in mixed company better.

Actually this sounds a lot like you playing the caretaker to his narc. I remember my wedding. We invited my wife's cousins and one of the cousins had a complete doorknob of a husband. This man was as dry as the Chablis served at the wedding dinner. Boring! I'd know him for years and was used to him being hot/cold. Then suddenly with my family around (new people!), he was charming, funny, witty, and (surprise surpise) a great dancer. What! Even his wife was shocked. We all thought he was drunk but he was just a dancing monkey playing for treats (or in this case approval).

5. Can one have narcissistic traits and not have full blown narcissistic personality disorder?

Perhaps. I'm no expert but yes I believe that disorders are like addictions, they all have different degrees. Perhaps there isn't a one-size-fits all diagnosis for these things.

Can we all agree that no matter what the labels, narc, sociopath, egotist etc. most gay-in-denial husbands act like complete self-centred *ssholes while cowering in their closets? I certain was until I came out. Thanks for reading friends.

Foolme · June 8, 2017 3:57 pm

As always Sean thanks for taking the time to reply in detail!

You asked was my husband very different at work, oh boy was he what! For sure, head of a continental section of a global operation, highly regarded and very successful, extremely well regarded and sought after whenever changing jobs. I guess what you were implying was this is where he was centre of attention, he got his ego stroked there and only needed the family & me in particular as the front!

The thing that keeps coming front and centre in my mind is the man I thought I was married to never existed, he was none of the things I perceived him as, apart from a good provider and great employee!

Thanks again Sean, appreciate your time and honesty!!

Séan · June 10, 2017 3:03 am

My pleasure Foolme. Thank you for posting. You wrote:

1. I guess what you were implying was this is where he was centre of attention, he got his ego stroked there and only needed the family & me in particular as the front!

I agree. My (then) wife was was simply camouflage as I played a straight man. I would constantly try to win the approval and appreciation of people who meant little to me, while sadly neglecting my family. I was like an approval junkie, constantly seeking a new high.

2. The thing that keeps coming front and centre in my mind is the man I thought I was married to never existed, he was none of the things I perceived him as, apart from a good provider and great employee!

Wow. I believe this is the true sign that you've detached. In my opinion, a straight wife can only truly start healing once she accepts who her husband is now not who he pretended to be at the beginning of the relationship. I know from experience how difficult this is because my wife and I couldn't just walk away from a 25-year relationship and three kids. We went through a bargaining phase during which I convinced myself I could live a gay life on the side while she hoped I'd wake up one day and be straight. That's euphemistically referred to as a mixed orentation marriage and there are forums and communities online that provide support for these kinds of relationships. I think we've all gone through this bargaining "make it work" phase of the grieving process. This is a snapshot of me at the end of my marriage:

- A full-blown narcissist who was emotionally abusive to my wife and children
- A cheater having sex with countless men right under her nose
- I had a boyfriend (a boyfriend!) the last year we were married and living together
- A distant and detached father just going through the motions of fatherhood

I constantly read posts from straight spouses that go something like this:

"He lies, is constantly on Craigslist, continues to cheat on me, is emotionally abusive, and hasn't had sex with me in years. But I love him deeply."

My question is: what exactly do you love? This sounds like saying you love cocaine or even cancer. It's like hearing, "He only beats me on Wednesdays." I'm not blaming the straight spouse. I'm just saddened that twisted gay-in-denial husbands like me are capable of slowly eroding our wives' boundaries to a point that love becomes nothing but a fantasy.

When I first started posting here, I maintained that that I loved my (then) wife. That was a lie. I loved my closet, the approval of others, and having a beard more than I ever loved my wife and children. So what's my point? This forum helps straight spouses see reality: that they are in abusive relationships with gay men that have to end. But there is a process. It starts with reading here, a tentative first post, sharing some details, then eventually more details. After she's posted here for a few weeks or months, she starts to understand the relationship cannot continue. Even after couples counselling (and we've all tried it!), she now understands that he's not who he pretended to be at the beginning of the relationship. While many try gay/straight (or mixed orientation relationships or "MOMs"), which I think just means "I get to have sex with men while you, dear wife, have to live with it", these relationships are ultimately doomed. Now I'm approaching this from the standpoint of a man who is 100% homosexual. If the husband and wife already have a good relationship, he's maintained a healthy sexual interest in his wife throughout the relationship, now says he's bisexual, and she's been happy/secure in their relationship, a MOM might work. But if he's shunned you for years, surfs gay porn, treats you like sh*t, and hooks up with men on the downlow all while claiming "I love you", re-branding a relationship a MOM isn't going to make things better in my opinion. Why? Because a gay man wants to be with another man and she spends the rest of her life either pretending to be a man in the bedroom or letting him have sex outside of the relationship. In a gay/straight relationship, she gets nothing out of it. End of rant!

Thanks for reading friends. I hope that helps in some small way. Please feel free to post your questions or comment on what I've just shared.

Last edited by Séan (June 10, 2017 7:14 am)

Duped · June 10, 2017 5:23 am

Deleted

Last edited by Duped (November 11, 2019 3:17 pm)

Lyonene · June 10, 2017 6:23 pm

"When I first started posting here, I maintained that that I loved my (then) wife. That was a lie. I loved my closet, the approval of others, and having a beard more than I ever loved my wife and children. So what's my point? This forum helps straight spouses see reality"

Sounds like you got your own dose of reality. ;)

Truth is healthy for all and will eventually find it's way to the light. What has this truth provided you, Sean?

Cheers

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