Scrupulous, I just want to hit on one thing you said, that he can't remember what he's told you and you have an amazing memory. I too have a very good memory and my STBX had a bad memory. I was told my good memory is now my biggest hindrance to moving forward (his attitude is forget about the past 30 years and move on already!!) During a recent conversation a lady said an interesting comment "People who tell lies forget", it makes so much sense! It's so much easier to say they can't remember and have a bad memory than to try and remember all their lies!

Séan wrote:

I believe that gay in denial husbands (or "GIDHs") become pathological liars and full-blown narcissists. Why? Because these are coping mechanisms for hiding our homosexuality for decades.

Do you truly think it's classical narcissism though? There are other defense mechanisms and coping strategies. There is "reaction formation," and the example that's used over and over in textbooks to explain "reaction formation" is the closeted homosexual - not narcissism. The defining feature is that a person strives so hard and for so long to not be what he/she believes to be unacceptable, that they convince themselves that they are not that, and the result is that others never suspect the truth about them. It's not so much about putting themselves first, grandiosity, unrealistic claims of accomplishments, as it is about a self-deception that they themselves come to believe is the truth.

Here are some links; the second one is a video that specifically uses closeted homosexuality as the example. Note that he points out that this is not the same as lying or being deliberately, intentionally deceitful - the person truly believes his own reaction formation... for a time, at least.

http://changingminds.org/explanations/behaviors/coping/reaction_formation.htm

http://study.com/academy/lesson/reaction-formation-in-psychology-definition-example.html

I think we throw the word "narcissism" around too cavalierly and incorrectly, and doing so points us in the wrong direction - like diagnosing someone with the flu when they really have food poisoning.

From everything I've read and studied, this "reaction formation" is more encompassing, as it covers just about all closeted gays and lesbians who are convinced they are straight. After all, not all closeted married gay persons are selfish, monsters, sociopaths; it seems to me that most of them (of my generation anyway) were badly misinformed about who they were.

When you say you "knew" as a young boy, what did you "know" and what did you think it meant -- from an 8 year old's perspective, and then later from a 30+ man's perspective? I can't imagine an 8 year old understanding all the ramifications of what "gay" means or even what "attraction to boys" means. Did you understand it then, or do you more likely mean you understand it now, in hindsight? 

Another link about 'reaction formation" that gives examples of closeted homosexuality - these are names we've all seen in the news in the last decade.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Reaction_formation

But I have yet to find even one study (besides religious-based so-called "studies") that shows a correlation between narcissism and homosexuality (closeted or open); or sociopathy and homosexuality.

 

Last edited by BryonM (June 6, 2017 10:50 am)

I guess we posted at the same time Scrupulous as I've just seen your latest update. It sounds like your on the right path although I'd recommend going no contact to avoid getting sucked back in. Please let me know that you're taking care of yourself and, if necessary, getting help from the SSN, CODA (co-dependent's anonymous), or a mental health professional. Remember to put yourself and your healing first.

Turning now to the other post, thank you very much for sharing Byron. I'd never heard the term "reaction formation." It was all very interesting and thought provoking. After having reviewed what you shared, does reaction formation apply to closeted gay people who become bigots or anti-gay crusaders? Let me know your thoughts. Unfortunately I couldn't watch the entire video from your second link as it required registration.

Phoenix (administrator) also called me on using the term "narcissist" too cavalierly. I should stress that I am not a mental health professional so it's certainly possible I'm overusing or perhaps even misusing the terms narcissist and co-dependent. I've read quite a lot on both subjects and still believe gay-in-denial spouses often demonstrate a number of narcissistic personality traits. But I'm more than happy to change my wording and my opinions if necessary. 

With regards to your question:

"When you say you "knew" as a young boy, what did you "know" and what did you think it meant -- from an 8 year old's perspective, and then later from a 30+ man's perspective? I can't imagine an 8 year old understanding all the ramifications of what "gay" means or even what "attraction to boys" means. Did you understand it then, or do you more likely mean you understand it now, in hindsight?"

I was five years old when I first felt an attraction towards a man. He was a lifeguard at my summer camp. I remember very hesitantly saying he was really handsome to my sister, then eight years old, and her best friend. I remember the friend's reaction: "That's gay! That's bad," and seeing my sister nod along with her. Their reaction is forever burned into my memory because that was when I went into the closet, only to emerge 35 painful years later. That was also when I started pretending to like girls to conform while hiding my attraction to boys. So while I knew I liked that lifeguard, I didn't realize it was gay until my sister's friend said the word. I hope that answered your question amigo. If not, please feel free to write again.

​I have a question for you: are you a gay ex-husband as well? If yes, please feel free to share more about your own experiences here. The more perspectives we can provide the better. Thanks again for posting and I look forward to your response.

Last edited by Séan (June 7, 2017 12:34 pm)

I've read and listened to the available piece on reaction formation and I can't say I agree with it, not in relation to my STBX anyway. He never engaged in gay bashing or heterosexual promiscuity, everything was so under the radar it went undetected. I never would have thought of him as a narcissist until about a year after he was outed. In that year I was very confused with his logic! He was placing blame on me for almost everything, I was so judgemental, I was so critical, I was so hard to live with, I thought I was perfect. I honestly was in a daze as to why he'd take this stance towards the mother of his children, I never locked the door so if I was all these things why did he stay for so long? Why did he never try to address these issues over the 30+ years we knew each other, married for over 28? He portrayed himself as a martyr putting up with me for so long. He completely shoved me under the bus to gain support and save face, his whole family are convinced of his lies to the point that only one of them had any type of proper conversation with me, albeit it hugely slanted towards sorrow for him AND they all know he's been actively gay since 1991, this is kept secret within their family unit and not divulged to their greater family. He's so brave keeping it hidden until the children were reared and only coming out then, it's total BS. I now see all this as projecting onto me to deflect from himself. I do have a clear understanding of his behaviour. He's also used emotional blackmail with his children, telling them he can't look at what he's done to me or he'd be floating in the river!! All narcissistic traits!

I started to attend a second counsellor about a year after his outing and six month after he just left the house while I was away on vacation and it was in doing this that I started to look at the kind of person who could be so successful in their professional life and have such a low moral compass for himself. The conversations that came back to me, 30 years of conversations where he was just lying, everything he did and said was to protect his double life, that's not reaction formation in my opinion. We went through a phase where my two daughters (one more so than the other) repeatedly told my son he was gay, everything he did was GAY, he was 12/13, the girls were 16-18/19. I kept trying to explain to them that it wasn't acceptable for him to be hearing this at such a formative stage, whether he is gay or not, (there was never any behaviour to suspect he was and he's a well adjusted heterosexual 24 year old today), I had discussions with my husband about our girls' behaviour and about how detrimental it could be to our son's development, he just sat there, agreed and felt I was right to tackle the girls. Of course at that stage the girls just called our son mom's pet, golden boy and I couldn't see any wrong in him, the typical teenage sibling stuff. BUT my husband just went along for the ride, having his own encounters on the down low etc, Now I'm thinking what the hell was going through his mind all that time??? That's obviously just one example I could give from hundreds if not thousands of conversations over the course of our relationship.

Every encounter we've had since he's left the house you'd swear I was the one who'd wronged him with the vitriol and venom that comes out of him. He has himself convinced he's the victim, he won't engage in the "blame game", has shown no remorse, no regrets, in fact he said he wouldn't change anything, he'd do it over again. Oh he actually said the one thing he'd change would be that we'd have gotten a second dog with the one we did get, the one I was reluctant to get fearing all the work would fall on me, the one I'm left with now, he's taken her 13 days of the 158 days this year so far!!!!! And that's him standing up to his responsibilities towards the dog!! 

Sorry about this long post, I got a little carried away. There's nothing now that he can look at with any perspective other than his own, how it affects him, never how it affects anyone else. The last conversation he had with our eldest daughter was 19th January, the last text communication 22nd Jan where he said he'd video call her soon, the next she heard from him was last week expressing his annoyance that she never thought to inform him of her husband's grandmother's death! In fact he sent her two texts with the same message and also text me twice expressing his disgust that I never informed him of it, he'd never met the woman!!! He actually made the death of a 91 year old woman he'd never met about him! If that along with so many other examples is not narcissism I don't know what is!

Rant over for today ;-) 

Last edited by Foolme (June 7, 2017 6:39 am)

Sean: Thank you again for your help and yes I'm working now on starting another thread so I don't drain yours too much lol. 
Foolme: You must be made of steel to combat everything youv'e been through! And to think I'm complaining about a few months of this bull when you've been enduring this hard ship for 30 years! My heart really goes out to you and I'm cheering you on in everyway!

I know this is an old saying but:

"That which doesn't kill us will make us stronger!"