Thank you Dutchman. In reply: 

1. ​Furthermore everyone is welcome in our church, as long as they behave orderly.

Does your church accept same-sex couples and gay members who openly have sexual relations/relationships with same-sex partners? Or would this be considered "disorderly"? 

2. This has nothing to do with love the sinner condemn the sin. ​(? and I don't see why you make this connection)

Some American fundamentalist/evangelical churches have shifted from condemning gay and trans people as "evil" to a more nuanced stance. Acceptance of same-sex marriage hovers around 70% in the United States. As such, fundamentalist churches (like the Mormons) have found themselves on the wrong side of public opinion when it comes to the LGBTQ community. As such, they've recycled that Catholic church trope which says: we love and accept you, but only if you remain celibate because homosexual sex is still inherently wrong, evil, and immoral. Is this your Evangelical church's stance as well? 

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I've enjoyed our exchanges. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (April 5, 2024 2:54 am)

Thank you Dutchman again for sharing about your mixed orientation marriage and evangelical church. If any straight spouses have questions for a gay ex-husband, feel free to post below. Be well! 

Thank you for writing Alex. In reply: 

1. Hey Sean, what is your take on Dr. Joe Kort's view on sexuality vs sexual behaviour?

Dr. Joe is a friend and celebrated mental health professional. I believe his theory is that men can have sex with men and yet identify as straight. 

2. I read his book (Is My Husband Straight, Gay or Bi) and follow him on Instagram...

Most straight spouses married to questioning/closeted husbands eventually find Dr. Joe and some even become his patients. Question: is your husband putting as much effort as you into your relationship? In my experience, the straight spouse furiously reads books, posts here, and books therapy sessions while her husband watches gay porn and generally takes a back seat.  

3. He frequently expresses a view that if straight men have sexual or erotic encounters with other men, it doesn't mean that they are gay or bi.

In my opinion, if a man is f*cking men or getting f*cked by men, he's no longer straight...no matter what he's saying to himself and others. For example, there are a lot of "straight-identified" men soliciting sex on Grindr, a male-for-male sex app. My question is this: if you're so straight bro, why not do the straight thing and go have sex with a woman!?  

4. The reasons for these behaviours can be anything from trauma reenactment...

This sounds like that old church-fueled nugget that gay men are somehow broken because of absent fathers and/or sexual abuse. I call bullsh*t. 

5. ...to fantasies' exploration to simply being "curious", etc. Basically, until the person self-identifies as "gay" they aren't and shouldn't be called that or assumed to be gay.

I was asked about this in an "Our Path" Podcast. Here is my opinion: Dr. Joe and I are comparing princes to toads.

Joe's 'princes' are husbands who still enjoy regular sex with their wives and were perhaps caught cheating (which they always call 'exploring') with men. In my opinion, a prince is free to define and explore his homosexuality with his wife's consent. Put bluntly, his attraction to men won't likely destroy the relationship and his wife's mental health. 

I myself fall into the 'toad' category. I am 100% gay with zero attraction to women. I vividly remember my first same-sex feelings towards a male lifeguard at age 5. I chose to marry a woman to conform because I wanted a wife and children and didn't want to identify as "gay" back in the mid-90s. However, I was never sexually attracted to my girlfriend/wife. We did not have sex on our wedding night, I rarely initiated sex, and we hadn't had sex for years when she discovered I was cheating exclusively with men. My homosexuality was also destroying her mental health and self-esteem. 

Alex I believe your husband is more prince than toad-like because you two have an active sex life. Unfortunately, the majority of straight spouses posting here marry toads and then read posts like yours hoping that unconditional love, intense therapy, and a little bit of Dr. Joe fairy dust will magically transform him into a prince. It rarely happens. 

6. Kinda goes at odds with your topic thread... lol. I can't say I 100% agree with him.

You're trying to bait me here friend...which I thoroughly enjoy. I think you provide a valuable point of view with your posts and journey. However, I'd urge you to help straight spouses determine whether they're with princes (like your husband) or toads (like me). If you start from the assumption that all boyfriends/husbands are like your prince of a husband, I'd perhaps suggest you approach this from a more objective standpoint. Similarly, I was often wrong in labeling all husbands as toads because of personal bias.  

7. I reflected on it for a while thought, and I think I could agree with him, but with two important caveats: 1) the sexual behaviour in question is not secretive (i.e. the person can openly discuss it and is not ashamed of it or doesn't go out of their way to hide it) and 2) it is not compulsive (i.e. it is controlled, planned, able to be delayed, negotiated, etc.; the thoughts of it are not pervasive).

Again this is your experience and you are 100% free to determine what you consider to be a happy marriage. In my experience and after thousands of exchanges with straight spouses, I believe that it takes cheating husbands years to be honest with themselves and their wives about his attraction to men. Most questioning/closeted husbands minimize the cheating/gay porn to save their marriages. The truth normally emerges about a year after discovery/disclosure; often when he's caught cheating with men again.    

8. It would be hard to find many examples in our (or older) generations, but I can see how younger people growing up with far less stigma around homosexulality can fit the above criteria, i.e. engage in sexual behaviours with same sex and still consider themselves and openly identify as straight.

I agree that younger generations, meaning the under 30 demographic, are much more comfortable with sexual fluidity. I married a woman because I wrongly associated homosexuality with family rejection, AIDS, and pedophilia. My self-hatred and internalized homophobia were part of my generation. Nowadays, my boyfriend and I are still surprised that most movies and programs have openly gay characters and gay plotlines. I am, admittedly, a dinosaur.  

9. What do you think?

Now there's a loaded question so buckle up! With regards to your situation, I seem to recall you and your husband enjoyed an active sex life pre-discovery and post-discovery you arranged to have male "guests" join you for threesomes.  If my recollections are correct, I assume you're still posting here because you want to answer the million-dollar question: "Is my bi-identified husband truly gay and if he's gay, will he eventually leave me?"

For some men, I think the term "gay" triggers terrifying images of divorce, loneliness, sassy drag queens, sweaty Pride floats, steroid-fueled sex, and rampant STDs/STIs. Given all of these negatives, few husbands enthusiastically say, "Yes honey, I'm gay!" when caught/challenged by devastated wives. Some wives find Dr. Joe who claims that men can f*ck men while still maintaining a straight identity. Or they claim the attraction is linked to childhood trauma when that trauma was likely youthful fumbling with another boy. So what's my point? Only time will tell if your husband is bisexual, or truly gay. 

I hope that helps friend. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (April 28, 2024 8:32 am)

Alex, it sounds like you aren’t coming back to the forum but if you do I can only tell you my experience which was this: my husband of 30 years, best friend etc has probably been cheating with men for decades. When he first “confessed” to me - and then boyfriend surfaced -,I bent over backwards trying to see everything as fluid. We flew to Detroit to see Dr. Kort for an intensive and also did sessions with him as follow up. Well. My husband kept cheating. And that’s not fluid; it’s just cheating. Letting me swim around analyzing human sexuality while he was off experiencing human sexuality. And I was home alone with the kids and the books and the questions. The denial, really.

Anyway - yes, I hope that your situation is different - there is a wide range of options! But - just for me - I wish I’d been a little more skeptical. I’m not young anymore, and it was a lot of cover wife/cover life years.

Divorce papers are filed. I’m sad, but it’s the only viable option. By the way, he still says he’s not “gay” - ok, whatever.

Thank you for writing Alex and Rose. In reply: 

Alex wrote: ​I'm not looking for answers on this forum - not anymore. It is comical you think I come here to find out "whether my husband will leave me or not"... people leave people for a plephora of reasons. It still, however, provides triggers for me to go and do my own research or contemplate some questions. It is full of posts - some I can relate to and other I find totally foreign. I haven't yet found a community that fully resonates with my needs and opinions, so as a perpetually questioning human - I explore. 

I sincerely apologize if I misunderstood your questions and/or triggered you with my answers. I would encourage you to keep coming back and sharing your perspective, research, and opinions. I'm sure that your journey and commitment to your relationship resonate with many fellow straight spouses. You might also try this forum: www.reddit.com/r/StraightBiPartners/

Rose wrote: Alex, it sounds like you aren’t coming back to the forum but if you do I can only tell you my experience which was this: my husband of 30 years, best friend etc has probably been cheating with men for decades. When he first “confessed” to me - and then boyfriend surfaced -,I bent over backwards trying to see everything as fluid. We flew to Detroit to see Dr. Kort for an intensive and also did sessions with him as follow up. Well. My husband kept cheating. And that’s not fluid; it’s just cheating. Letting me swim around analyzing human sexuality while he was off experiencing human sexuality. And I was home alone with the kids and the books and the questions. The denial, really. Anyway - yes, I hope that your situation is different - there is a wide range of options! But - just for me - I wish I’d been a little more skeptical. I’m not young anymore, and it was a lot of cover wife/cover life years. Divorce papers are filed. I’m sad, but it’s the only viable option. By the way, he still says he’s not “gay” - ok, whatever.

Good luck Rose! Your first message to me was just over two (2) years ago and, if I may, I can't think it's a coincidence that your journey somewhat resembles that of Alex. I believe you both went 'all in' researching your husbands' sexualities while embracing Dr. Joe's theories about sex and sexuality. Sadly, your husband apparently couldn't stop lying to himself and others about his true sexuality. He was also a serial cheater based on your recent posts. I agree with Alex (see below) that questions of sexuality are often secondary to fundamental problems such as dishonesty and infidelity.  

Alex just posted this: 

Your [Rose's] story is, however, not about being married to a gay or a fluid person... it is about being married to a person who lied to you... I refuse to believe that gay = lying. So, I guess I am on a mission to find out if I am married to a dickhead or not. His sexuality is secondary.

I couldn't agree more! I am so glad you came back to the forum Alex as it appeared in your second to last post that you'd be leaving us. Feel free to post again Alex and Rose. And if any straight spouses have questions for a gay ex-husband, please feel free to post them here. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (April 29, 2024 12:43 am)