Thank you for writing Moppy. In reply: 

1. He did come out as fully gay, not bi. And in that, I was so grateful because he “didn’t lie to me”. I commended him for his honesty and not prolonging the pain.

Thanks for clarifying. I don't think he deserves the medal of freedom just yet...particularly given the details you shared below. 

2. All of these things ring true: An obsessive interest in fitness and getting pumped (to be "gay ready"). He got a lot bigger and gym obsessed this past year. Conjugal sex stops because he fears giving his wife an STD/STI. We last had sex in October and even then it was very sparse and robotic. And if we didn’t, he blamed his performance anxiety.

Closeted/questioning husbands can blabber away all they want, but there is no lying in the bedroom. A gay husband avoids sex with his wife, often starting with their honeymoon, because he simply isn't attracted to women. 

3. In regards to the work trips, up until this year, we worked together as a photo/video team, primarily in weddings. But he would find reasons to go travel to other states for videos  work without me. And instead of bringing me along, he would bring a friend along instead. Sometimes the friend would differ but he always had someone come with him for assistance.

I assume it was always a male "friend" but feel free to clarify. 

4. In the past year, he has gone on many trips with one friend in particular that’s gay. And really for no reason. He used to make it seem like he had promising photo/video work with this guy’s company, but doesn’t even pretend that anymore. He also went on many camping trips with individual guys throughout the years. Never in groups….This is why I was certain that he had already cheated on me.

100% agree with you. 

5. By the time he came out, I was basically demanding answers on a weekly basis. So when he came out, but said he never cheated, I thought “wow he’s so honorable after all. And the fact that he’s gay explains all of the confusion, but maybe he was never cheating and was just getting close.”

He's lying. 

6. Yes, we both grew up in intensely conservative evangelical homes which is another reason why I was like “this totally makes sense I have complete empathy for this situation.”

This explains his out of town cheating and denial that he's stepped out on your marriage. 

7. The relationship with the worship pastor was sexual.

Ok. So by his own admission, he's been cheating with men since 2017. 

8. When he first told me, he said the first time wasn’t his fault, but every time after it was his fault. But upon further explanation I was like “I think this is abuse.” The guy that he did it with definitely seems to have a personality disorder (I myself diagnosed him with sociopathy) and he had complete control over the church.

Red flags galore. As you heard in my podcast interviews, when the closeted husband gets caught cheating he often claims "I was r*ped." If your husband has a history of lying about his sexuality, which to me seems more than evident given what you've shared, he's more than capable of manipulating the narrative by fabricating/exaggerating this whole story. And given your post above, you seem to be parroting the following narrative: your husband is the victim and the pastor was apparently the aggressor...and likely a sociopath. What gives me pause is "every time after" because this suggests they had an ongoing sexual relationship. I'd be interested to learn more about how he disclosed all of this to you. Sexual assault between an adult and minor is easy to understand because the adult is assumed to have all the power in the relationship and, in the case of much younger children, the adult is physically able to overpower his/her victim. When two males are roughly the same age, the same size, the same status, and are of an age to understand/give consent, the more likely scenario is as follows: this was a first consensual same-sex experience; one or both of the men panic; and they're so disgusted with themselves they paint it as non-consensual sex. 

8. I heard of different non-sexual abuse stories happening from many others. So it made sense that my husband’s relationship was also abusive. Now I just don’t know.

Nor do I. If over the years your husband has demonstrated a complete inability to be honest with you about his homosexuality, then I think you can apply the same honesty standard to his claim of "our pastor r*ped me."  

9. My next question is how were you as a parent during all of this? I always thought he at least put our children first, but now I of course don’t believe that’s true.

I was a very hands-on, active, and loving parent to my children until I started gay adolescence. Then I went completely "boy crazy." The year before separation/divorce and for two years after I all but abandoned my kids because I had all the maturity of a 13-year-old gay K-Pop fan. I don't want to alarm you, but even young children know when something isn't right between their parents. A toxic marriage is a lot like second-hand smoke, it gets into everything and everyone. As for my kids, I've since come out and apologized to them many times. They have forgiven me and I'm now more present in their lives.

I hope that answered your questions but please feel free to write again. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (June 24, 2023 3:31 pm)

In reply to Moppy's latest post: 

1. Thanks for your reply Sean! Yes, he always went on trips with a male friend, often his “best friend” at the time.

Understood. Truth: they were lovers. 

2. He told me a year after its all happened. He apparently told other friends while it was happening; and they urged him to tell me...

Lie. Truth: he was never going to tell you, unless forced to. 

3. ...but right when he supposedly was going to, my otherwise healthy mom (whom I was very close to and was a very active mom and grandma) died suddenly from a brain aneurysm. So he decided not to tell me saying it would’ve been too much for me to handle.

Lie. Truth: he was never going to disclose the affair, unless he was forced to. 

4. But when he did tell me, it was because our head pastor found everything out, and he essentially was forced to tell me.

Truth: your head pastor was going to expose the entire gay affair, so he was forced to tell you. 

5. So who knows how much longer it would’ve taken to find out, if ever. So the timeline was; Sept 2017- first sexual encounter; Nov 2017- my mom died; Dec 2017- relationship ends; August 2018- I find everything out. 

Noted. In my opinion, he was never planning to tell you. 

6. I did always wonder how abuse could continue like that. I mean he did admit that he would initiate, but that it was because he was trying to figure everything out and was trapped. It never made sense that this would happen to a heterosexual which is why I never trusted him after that. But I was convinced, even by a therapist, that it was all in my head and I needed to take deep breaths basically *eye roll.*

I can only assume you were seeing a church-approved therapist or perhaps your husband found you a Christian counsellor. If yes, a Christian or Evangelical therapist's entire agenda is normally to deny homosexuality exists while doing absolutely everything to keep husband/wife together...at any/all personal costs to you and your children. Their agenda is to preserve the marriage, while often disregarding an individual spouse's pain.  Hopefully you've since changed therapists. 

7. I guess I’m just trying to figure out how to go about it all from here. I don’t know how to proceed when he disregards everything I say. He basically just doesn’t respond to anything I bring up about our living situation, our custody, how things will be split, etc.

I'm going to be blunt here so prepare yourself. It's time to stop believing everything your husband says about his sexuality. If he's anything like me, your husband knew deep down he was gay starting around age 5 or 6....the same age you probably started having feelings for the boys in your classes. So he has been lying, distracting, and explaining away his sexuality for decades. Let's do a quick run down of his lies so far: 

His version: I've never cheated on you. 
Fact: I had a four-month sexual relationship with our (male) pastor. 

His version: Our pastor sexually assaulted me. 
Fact: I had a four-month consensual sexual relationship with our (male) pastor. 

His version: I've been taking strictly platonic business trips with a colleague. 
Fact: I often take personal trips with another gay man so we can have sex together away from our families. 

As you heard during my first podcast interview, it's time to apply an honesty scale to your husband's statements/disclosures. If 10/10 means Jesus-like honesty, then 0/10 means pathological dishonesty. Your future ex-husband appears to be doing that thing most closeted husbands do, meaning there is a kernel of truth to his lies which confuses you and others. Let's take the affair with your (male) pastor and distill it to the bare facts: 

FACTS:
- Your husband has admitted he is gay: truth.
- Your husband admitted he cheated with another man: truth.
- Your husband admitted the affair lasted for months: truth. 
- Your head pastor learned about the affair and was going to out them both: truth. 

LIES/SPIN/DISTORTIONS: 
- "I planned to tell you about the affair but then ______ stopped me." Lie. He was never going to disclose the affair.
- "Our pastor sexually assaulted me." Lie. Clearly your husband enjoyed the sex because he kept going back for months, while actively hiding it from you and your congregation. 

So what's my point? As I suggested in the "Our Path" podcast, I'd recommend gaging your husband's honesty when it comes to his sexuality. If he's scoring a 2/10 for example, then 20% of what he's saying about his homosexuality is true, while 80% is just spin/bullsh*t. I'll now apply this to his latest disclosures below. 
 
8. Also, he’s told his brother but the rest of our family doesn’t know.

This has to do with his homosexuality so let's assume 20% of this statement is true. If I put this through our new truth-o-matic, I think the more honest version goes something like: 

"My brother confronted me about my sexuality. I first denied it, then later had to tell him the truth when he found out about my affair with the pastor." 

As for the family not knowing, again I call bullsh*t. If he has sisters, they know. If he has female cousins, they all know. And his mom has known he was gay since his first fabulous choir/dance/drama performance. In my experience, 80% of the women in my life - mother, aunts, female cousins - all knew I was pride-float gay but didn't want to out me nor confront me and then cause the end of my marriage. If there are multiple siblings, the idea that your brother-in-law hasn't shared this with any of them seems unlikely. But again we have to factor in the Evangelical idea that homosexuality simply doesn't exist or is so evil that I cannot be spoken of. So what's my point? Your in-laws know but just don't want to address it for fear of outing him and causing you two to break up. I'd urge you to discuss all of this with your family. He outed himself in 2017 so you no longer have to cower in his closet nor keep his secrets. 

9. I keep urging him to tell his family so we can move forward, but he tells me I’m being insensitive and not respecting that it’s a process.

This is a very obvious blame shift and smacks of emotional abuse. How does he define "sensitivity": f*cking men on weekend trips away with his latest gay boyfriend? There always comes a time when straight spouses are forced to move forward, without their closeted husbands.  

10. I don’t want to out him because I fear the repercussions.

He already outed himself by f*cking your pastor back in 2017. And he continues to out himself by overtly cheating on you while neglecting your kids through his apprently frequent absences. The idea that no one knows, nor has gossiped, about his 2017 affair and frequent "male-on-male" business trips is absurd. Everyone knows about this my friend and he's already come out to you. It's time to rip off the band-aid and start sharing this with your own friends and family. You'll need their support going forward.     

11. But he’s kind of using it to stay in this limbo for as long as possible and it doesn’t feel fair. Thanks again!

Damn right it isn't fair! It's time to: 

- Get a secular counsellor who is 100% invested in your healing. 
- Start your own thread here to work through all of your PTSD while getting support from fellow straight spouses. 
- Tell everything to a close friend or family member.
- Write everything down in a journal and keep all evidence (hotel receipts, texts, racy photos, Grindr profiles) in  preparation for divorce proceedings.   
- Talk to a lawyer about separation/divorce. 

I hope that helps. Be well! 

Thank you for sharing Rose. I want to apologize because, once again, I've amalgamated your story with another member who goes by a similar name. Sorry for not getting my spouses straight. In response to your latest post: 

1. “I don’t want to out him because I fear the repercussions. But he’s kind of using it to stay in this limbo for as long as possible and it doesn’t feel fair. Thanks again!” Yes. Moppy I too have been in this exact situation for a very long time - my husband’s boyfriend sent me pictures of them having sex together in 2018. I’ve been trying to work through it in a “fair” and “honest” way since and my husband, who most in our circles think of as a very upstanding person, a star, has ZERO sense of responsibility to any standard of fairness or honesty when it comes to our marriage and his cheating. Zero. So I had to leave.

Of course you had to leave. He forced you to leave. You didn't have a choice. As for the bullsh*t double standard, it's highly unlikely your future ex-husband would stay in sexless, completely one-sided relationship with a pathological liar.  

2. And that meant leaving our whole social circle without really exposing him. It feels very unfair. He is absolutely blaming me for leaving and continues to paint himself as the victim- which some people, like my sister in law, are totally complicit with! She actually had the nerve to tell me “right and wrong are subjective here.” If I were to tell them about the stalking, the pictures, the serial cheating, and the time I think he brought home a yucky skin rash that my son caught - would she still think right and wrong are subjective?

What an *sshole. As for the social circle and future ex-in-laws, I discussed this very topic in my last podcast interview. My advice: move on my friend. Don't waste any time on his enablers and flying monkeys. His family will always take his side, not yours.  

3. Moppy, I think you and I are dealing with master manipulators who know we believe in fairness, compassion, and honesty - and are 100% willing to use that against us.

I've often referred to this as straight spouses using old-timey Oxford Boxing Rules only to face off against professional MMA fighters. You're not going to outwit and outplay someone who has been hiding his sexuality for a lifetime. Take your proof to your lawyer, not the court of public opinion.  

4. I left, which feels kind of awful as I also gave up any idea of “vindication” as well as our marital home and a lot of our mutual friends. It’s really hard. But at least I’m out.

Thanks for the update. And how are your kids dealing with the separation? 

5. And my “flying monkey” sister in law, supporting his side - which isn’t even a real thing, she has no idea of the depth of his bad behavior - I guess I just have to tell myself oh well. He’ll let her down too, eventually. Ugh. 30 year marriage to my .”best friend” and all around “great guy.”

Sad but true. 

6. If he messes with me again I will pull out the restraining order he had to take out against the gay stalker boyfriend - who wound up having to spend time in jail for violating it, another feather in my lying husbands cap, really - yes the stalker made his own choices but it was husband’s lies that started the whole chain of events - and take him to court. We are trying to negotiate an amicable split but it feels more like the limbo Moppy describes than progress. Especially since we aren’t playing by the same rules. I hate this, and am so sorry you are coping with it, too.

I hope you have a very good lawyer. Again, you're not going to outwit him nor turn his family against him. I'd suggest concentrating on your own mental health, the health/wellbeing of your children, and moving ahead with divorce proceedings. 

7. My advice to both of us - reconsider “fair,” That doesn’t mean two wrongs make a right, and we don’t need to be destructive. But propping up a lying dictator isn’t great either. Ugh. All best wishes - Rose.

Well said. Thanks Rose. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (June 25, 2023 2:50 pm)

Moppy:
In addition to the forum, you might want to try the peer-to-peer resources in “find support” here. I was matched with a person who was very helpful - one thing she said that stuck with me was: “stay in your own reality.”
Good luck to you - you aren’t alone in this.
Rose

Thank you for writing Rose and Anon. I am so very sorry for what your husbands did to you both, namely: lying to and deceiving you both for decades; isolating you from friends/family (often by constantly moving); financially trapping you; cheating on you...often brazenly and totally without remorse; summarily dumping you; and now making you both out to be crazy for abandoning them. In my opinion, everything about gay/straight marriages + separation/divorce is a no-win situation for the straight wife. 

As I shared in my last podcast interview, reality gets turned on its head in gay/straight divorces. While the straight spouse is trying to mourn a loss - namely the loss of a husband and the tragic death of a relationship - the gay husband and entourage are often celebrating his rainbow-coloured rebirth. The scenario is akin to the straight spouse quietly mourning her dead marriage at a somber funeral service. Dressed head-to-toe in black, suddenly a raucous pride procession comes charging in with your husbands leading the revelry, drenched in glitter, sporting hot pants, and showing off brand spanking new boyfriends. Suddenly your funeral has been hijacked into a pride parade. In a rainbow blur you are erased, forgotten, and often openly criticized for not "joining in the fun." It's bullsh*t. 

Rose asked: Yes. Concentrate on [my] own mental health. But doesn’t that require a realistic look at all of the losses?

I apologize if I came across as writing "just get over it" and/or insensitive. I'm sorry. While the straight spouse often has just months or less than a year to adapt to her new normal, gay ex-husbands appear to move on at light speed. He dumps her so quickly that her head is often spinning. And why? We of the closet spend lifetimes preparing for coming out, separation, and divorce. So on an emotional level, we're ready. We introduce a new male partner to the robust appaluse and support from friends and family; often before the ink has dried on our marriage decrees. He moves on so quickly the straight ex-wife is often abandoned and maligned thinking, "Where is my f*cking parade?" Then when she expresses anger and/or a lack of total support for her cheating ex-husband, she's called a bigot and homophobe. Again, bullsh*t. 

So what now? In addition to continuing therapy and posting here, I'd suggest speaking to fellow straight wives who are 3-5+ years post divorce and thriving. I'd suggest reaching out to women who have successfully rebuilt their lives and found new partners. A quick post here asking for contacts, a call to "Our Path" (Personal Support - OurPath), or joining their Facebook group should help. Again I'd suggest contacting a straight ex-wife who has what you want as that would perhaps be most helpful. Turning now to other resources, I'd recommend reading "Loving What Is" by Byron Katie. I particularly enjoyed the audio version of the book, which Katie (a woman) deftly narrated. While a bit California touchy-feely pop psychology, Katie's book eventually helped me understand that most of my mental/emotional problems stemmed from denying reality. The book may help straight wives understand that their ex-husbands were never the men they claimed to be, that these were abusive (rather than loving) relationships, and (sadly) they'll never find justice/recognition with their ex-in-laws. 

I hope that helps friends. Please feel free to post, comment, and reply. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean01 (June 26, 2023 6:05 am)