OurPath Open Forum
This forum is for discussion of issues related to Mixed Orientation relationships only, that is when one partner is heterosexual (straight) and one is Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender or Questioning.
If this does not apply to your topic, please find another forum.
* Opinions posted here, including that of the Administrator, are the poster's own and do not necessarily reflect the views or policies of OurPath.
* As a peer-to-peer network, any advice given is that of a peer, based on personal experience, and should not be considered professional in nature.
* Any discussion of LGBT related issues is acceptable provided it remains constructive and respectful of other viewpoints. Hateful, degrading, or prejudiced speech and/or personal attacks will not be tolerated.
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- Steve
- Member
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Re: Feeling overwhelmed
Séan wrote:
Why am I here? Because I'm seeking forgiveness. I'm seeking redemption. I want to convince myself that being gay isn't a choice. I want to tell all of you the things that I'm too afraid to tell the mother of my children. I've told her countless times that I'm sorry but something in me needs more. More forgiveness, more attention, more compassion. So yes you've found me out. Yes I want something from all of you. I want to hear that I'm not a monster, that I did the right thing by divorcing, and that I didn't have a choice. I want to know the pain will eventually stop. I want to stop hurting the people I love the most.
Wow Sean.
I don't think you should be looking for forgiveness here. I'm not sure forgiveness is ours to give you anyway. I think what we CAN give you is an understanding of what it means to be a straight spouse. I think it's pretty clear that you are an empathetic person and you are seeing the damage caused.
Forgiveness is gonna come primarily from two places Sean.
1. You need to find a way to forgive yourself. That's not to 'let yourself off the hook' or explain away every shitty choise you made... but it is about recognizing the how's and why's of the situation. I'm not one to 'blame society' for every hurtful decision a person makes but yeah... society has a lot to answer for when it comes to driving gay people into the closet.
2. MAYBE - one day - forgiveness will come from your ex-wife but don't hold your breath. Why do I say 'don't hold your breath'? Because holding your breath will eventually kill you. Whether she forgives you or not try to find a way to get on with your life. You can hope for forgiveness but you can't demand it. She may get to it in her own time.
It's been 13 years since my divorce Sean and I'm almost there. At forgiveness. Reading posts like yours makes me more inclined to want to forgive her because I know she still feels a lot of guilt. She only recently told me so. I told her that she doesn't need to feel 'guilt'. She can have regrets... but I don't want her to have guilt. They are different things. But it has taken me 13 years to get to that point Sean. Long time huh?
Being a straight spouse changes people in pretty profound ways. It breaks some people but many become wiser people and more compassionate people.
Some gay spouses continue to be narcissistic liars and cheats. Others understand the damage caused to themselves and others in this whole awful scenario and become more enlightened people also. Maybe that's your destiny too Sean... to be a new, more enlightened version of yourself. A version of you that can recognize the mistakes of the past, own what you need to own as far as responsibility is concerned, reject blame that is not yours to shoulder and move on as best you can whether the forgiveness you seek is forthcoming or not.
As I said last time Sean... I hope you find peace.
Last edited by Steve (November 4, 2016 11:14 am)
You have a future. A good one. It begins as a flicker of hope. Nurture it until it becomes a dream and when you are strong enough you will make it a reality. NEVER give up.
- Shirley
- Unregistered
Re: Feeling overwhelmed
Oh Sean, you haven't got a clue. You still live in a world that's all about your needs. The mere fact that you have come onto a forum for straight spouses confirms this. I found this site and thought 'Thank God' people who can help me just to stumble upon another gay ex married man saying 'poor me'. Some years ago, I was watching a chat show with my son who was then 14 years old. It was about gay married people and their ex spouses. My son and I sat there stunned how the spouses and children were accepting. I couldn't believe what I was hearing and my child turned around and said 'what about all those mum, that aren't happy and their world is shattered. There not going to go on TV are they?
You say you want forgiveness for divorcing. I wouldn't criticise you for divorcing, I would berate you for marrying. That is the epitome of selfishness.
You say you want forgiveness//redemption. Let's do this your way. Some man has betrayed, humiliated and emotionally raped your wife and children. That man has stripped her bare for being a woman and left her alone and vulnerable. He has made her feel worthless. For the rest of her life she questions everything and struggles with her own judgements. Can you honestly say you could forgive him?
The world has a different attitude to gays now. It's a lot more open and supposedly accepting. So I happily go about my life without a thought of what I've been through when a couple of gays are in my favourite soap or I;m out for a nice meal and believe or not, a couple of gays are kissing and BANG it all comes back to me.
I cannot fathom how you can come on this forum and open yourself up to the truth and ask for redemption.
- Shirley
- Unregistered
Re: Feeling overwhelmed
I nearly cried when I found this forum yesterday. I was so, so pleased that there are people out there who truly, from the heart and soul understand the devastation I went through. The first post I came to was Sean's and I was incensed.
I hate the fact that gay is so supposedly accepted nowadays and to some degree celebrated. I go about my normal life and what I've suffered is locked in a box inside me. Then watching my favourite soap and there are the trials and tribulations of gay people or I go out for a lovely meal and notice 2 guys kissing. The group I am with start chatting about it and I go quiet, the usual extrovert me everyone knows disappears. The box inside me is open again and I want to escape but I can't.
After reading the reply's to Sean's post, I can see it is a forum for us, the emotionally abused and not for the 'poor me gay parade'. I don't live my life bitter and I refuse to let another gay man bring back the feelings (as Sean did) I worked and continue to work all these years later to rise above. Why on earth would a gay man come on a forum entitled 'Straight Spouse'. It felt like rubbing salt in the wound.
- WendiT
- Member
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Re: Feeling overwhelmed
And being married to a woman who continued to love me unconditionally while I so hated myself made me see red. I just want to lash out. I wanted to make things so bad that she'd leave me. I didn't deserve her and hated her for it. I made her life hell for a time.
Sean, I have not read other posts here on this thread and so I am that pesky person jumping into the middle of the movie asking questions...but...
Why couldn't you detach from your W with kindness and love instead of hate? I am curious as my X did the same.
"No matter how hard the journey may be, remember to be kind to yourself..."
- phoenix
- Administrator
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Re: Feeling overwhelmed
I want to convince myself that being gay isn't a choice.
I don't agree with you Sean.
This is something that has brewing inside of me for weeks and I have to let it out.. So my apology for directing this at you.. it's not really you. I admire what you are doing now.
I'm sure my opinion on this will not be a popular one... I will explain:
I view homosexuality as two separate issues.
One is how you are wired.. what you are attracted to.
Two is what you chose to do with that. How you act.
I don't think same-sex attraction is a choice for most people. I think it's how they were wired. I'm sure there are many that developed the same sex attraction through influences in their childhood, but I think many are just born that way.
How you chose to live your life is absolutely a choice. Life isn't fair.. some people draw a harder lot than others. Having a same sex attraction is a hard lot. But it doesn't justify actions. You don't have to have gay sex. You didn't have to stop having sex with your wife. You didn't have to divorce her. You don't have to have sex at all. You didn't have to marry that woman. You sure as hell didn't have to divorce her and destroy her life. None of these actions were justified because you were wired a certain way.
One of the issues I'm dealing with personally is hating my wife because she made horrible selfish choices. For some reason she seems to feel that having sex is a god-given right. Somehow her sex drive took priority over everything and everyone else in her life. She feels justified in ruining the lives of her husband and two children and disrupting the lives of countless other people in our network of family and friends.. because she's horny. That is so horrible.. so selfish. I'm so angry with her. I think a decent human being should put aside their sex drive if they know that it will destroy other people. Hell.. most of us here on the forum did that... We were in marriages that weren't fulfilling sexually.. but we accepted it, made the best of it, and kept going because we loved our spouse and our children. We didn't go out and cheat to get satisfaction just because our spouse wasn't giving it to us. We stayed true to our vows and to our spouse and our family.
This situation applies to straight marriages as well.. often one of the spouses doens't feel their sexual needs are being met and so they cheat on their spouse.
Guess what folks.. Sex is a gift, not a right. Sex is a want, not a need. Sex should never be obtained at the cost of harming other people. When that happens, the offender has committed a grievous sin.
Having a homosexual attraction may not be a choice, but acting on that is a choice. Making sex a priority over family and your marriage is despicable.
Sean, you know this of course.
What is done is done and it's in the past. I admire you greatly for being here on this forum because you want to give back and find some forgiveness and make things better for others. I hate what you did in your past, but I admire what you are doing now. I have no problem at all with having you here on the forum. I think you have the capability of helping many of us process the actions of our spouses and understand why they have done certain things. That is a great help.. please don't leave.
Last edited by lostdad (November 4, 2016 1:38 pm)
-Formerly "Lostdad" - I now embrace the username "phoenix" because my former life ended in flames, but my new life will be spectacular.
- Kel
- Member
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Re: Feeling overwhelmed
Shirley,
I think a lot of us can relate to what you're saying. But the enemy isn't gay men and women. The enemy is that they feel the need to go underground rather than being accepted for who and what they are. Which is why we wind up in the straight spouse situation in the first place - because gay individuals feel such pressure to conform that they do - eventually unsuccessfully - because they'd need to BE straight to have a hetero marriage, and they just aren't. If gay individuals were accepted as the same but just different than their straight counterparts, then there'd be no pressure to appear straight to the world. And then gay individuals would be okay to find their bliss, rather than their parents' and society's. A lot of people realize this, which is why there is so much emphasis on gays right now. You can pass laws giving gays and straights the same rights, but gays will still be in the closet if society doesn't come to accept them. It's not going to happen on its own - it has to be a focused effort to get somewhere different and away from the bad stigma.
Sean is welcome here because he isn't trying to change anyone's mind about their gay spouse, or even defend them. He used to be one of those individuals who caused much harm and damage. And until he came here and saw the hurt we all experienced, he had no idea of our plight. Had no way to relate to anything but his own pain during his process. He's great for giving us insight into the mindset of gay-in-denial individuals (having been one), and how invisible we are. It's not us straights vs. the gays - or even just the gay exes. It's people together, disucussing the plight of the straight spouse. Sean and others here like him (there are a few), along with everyone else in different boats, make for a rich, valuable experience for us. We have gay, former spouses of straights. We also have have spouses of transgenders, gays, bi-sexuals. Spouses of cross-dressers. Husbands of lesbians, wives of gay men. People who co-parent with them. We have spouses who've been told outright by their spouses that there's a problem. We have people who to this day still haven't gotten the recognition from their former spouse that they're gay, despite them living a gay lifestyle, or moving on to another straight, unsuspecting partner. We have people who found out last week that something was amiss in their relationship, and we have people like me - who found out years ago, moved on, healed, found love and remarried. ALL of these voices are invaluable. The more variety we have here, the richer the pool of experiences. And the more valuable of a place we are to others seeking someone who can relate to their unique situation.
Stick around. Read. You'll see that we get accused of everything from being anti-gay to too gay friendly. We're not any of those things. We're just a group of people who've been a part of the gay/straight experience. All are welcome as long as they are respectful, and can be supportive and helpful. It's a public forum - you're going to have people here because it's an open door.
I wish you well -
Kel
You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
- phoenix
- Administrator
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Re: Feeling overwhelmed
I nearly cried when I found this forum yesterday. I was so, so pleased that there are people out there who truly, from the heart and soul understand the devastation I went through. The first post I came to was Sean's and I was incensed.
I hate the fact that gay is so supposedly accepted nowadays and to some degree celebrated. I go about my normal life and what I've suffered is locked in a box inside me. Then watching my favourite soap and there are the trials and tribulations of gay people or I go out for a lovely meal and notice 2 guys kissing. The group I am with start chatting about it and I go quiet, the usual extrovert me everyone knows disappears. The box inside me is open again and I want to escape but I can't.
After reading the reply's to Sean's post, I can see it is a forum for us, the emotionally abused and not for the 'poor me gay parade'. I don't live my life bitter and I refuse to let another gay man bring back the feelings (as Sean did) I worked and continue to work all these years later to rise above. Why on earth would a gay man come on a forum entitled 'Straight Spouse'. It felt like rubbing salt in the wound.
Shirley,
Welcome to the forum. If you stick around, I think you will find that this forum is exactly the kind of place you were hoping it would be. It has been been for me.. it's been a life-saver. Most of the members are the emotionally wounded victims of homosexual spouses.. just as you are.
I can understand your point of view about not wanting to have gay people come here to try to justify their actions. I think as a group, we are very quick to see through this and typically will call them on that very quickly.
However, I think we have a few gay men here right now who are genuinely helpful to the community. Sean, Jeff, and Cameron have been filling a need. Many of the straight spouses here are women who have been devastated by men who they think are gay, but might not ever get confirmation from. Many of us just can't wrap our head around the actions and thought processes going on with our gay spouses. Having these men here to help share their stories and their understanding of what it is like to be a closet homosexual in a straight marriage is very helpful to many of us. We just need to fill in the pieces and try to understand things we can't wrap our heads around. These guys help us do that.
So, I understand your perspective.. but I would encourage you to give this site and these members a little more time. I think you'll come to appreciate them.
Last edited by lostdad (November 4, 2016 1:47 pm)
-Formerly "Lostdad" - I now embrace the username "phoenix" because my former life ended in flames, but my new life will be spectacular.
- Steve
- Member
Offline
Re: Feeling overwhelmed
Ditto to Kel and lostdad.
Shirley, first welcome to the forum. As we often say welcome to the club no one wants to join.
While this is a forum on the Straight Spouse Network it is a forum 'for discussion about mixed orientation marriages'. As Kel said because the forum is open (public) anyone can post here provided they are 'on topic'. Straight spouses, gay spouses, questioning spouses etc
If you find that difficult to deal with right now - and you wouldn't be the first - there are other closed (private) support groups available through SSN. Please see the support links on the SSN home page.
PLEASE don't interpret that as me or anyone else trying to move you on - You are of course MOST WELCOME to read and post here - but if the nature of this particular forum does not suit you there are other places you can go.
Just wanted you to know.
You have a future. A good one. It begins as a flicker of hope. Nurture it until it becomes a dream and when you are strong enough you will make it a reality. NEVER give up.
- Sam (Admin)
- Administrator
Offline
Re: Feeling overwhelmed
I want to convince myself that being gay isn't a choice.
I don't agree with you Sean.
This is something that has brewing inside of me for weeks and I have to let it out.. So my apology for directing this at you.. it's not really you. I admire what you are doing now.
I'm sure my opinion on this will not be a popular one... I will explain:
I view homosexuality as two separate issues.
One is how you are wired.. what you are attracted to.
Two is what you chose to do with that. How you act.
I don't think same-sex attraction is a choice for most people. I think it's how they were wired. I'm sure there are many that developed the same sex attraction through influences in their childhood, but I think many are just born that way.
How you chose to live your life is absolutely a choice. Life isn't fair.. some people draw a harder lot than others. Having a same sex attraction is a hard lot. But it doesn't justify actions. You don't have to have gay sex. You didn't have to stop having sex with your wife. You didn't have to divorce her. You don't have to have sex at all. You didn't have to marry that woman. You sure as hell didn't have to divorce her and destroy her life. None of these actions were justified because you were wired a certain way.
I rarely comment on my own situation, as it was quite some time ago now. However thinking back on my ex's situation, it's more complicated than that. For years she was miserable. I had no idea why, she had everything she always said she wanted, a house in the suburbs, two kids, a dog and a cat, a breadwinner who gave her the opportunity to be a SAHM. Somehow it always seemed to be my fault. One might ask, if all this was not what she really wanted, why did she get herself (and me) in this situation.
If you knew her mother, it would be obvious. She was pretty much driven to please her mother, and that meant having a "normal" life. I guess she thought she could tough it out, enjoy what she had. After some years she knew she couldn't. I'm convinced it's way more than just sex drive. Yes she could have chosen to shut up and stay, while making me and our kids miserable as she was. But I think her unhappiness was way more than just sex, it was pretending to be someone she wasn't. The perfect daughter, mom, wife, PTA and soccer mom... it was tearing her apart. She nearly attempted suicide and only didn't because she knew our son would be the one to find her.
I must say, after it all came out she became a much better mom at any rate.
That said, I think it is more than just sex, it's part of who one is. This is not in any way intended to excuse bad and narcissistic behavior. Part of me still hasn't forgiven her for using me for the best years of my life to be part of something that wasn't real.
- Séan
- Unregistered
Re: Feeling overwhelmed
In response to Wendi's question:
"Why couldn't you detach from your W with kindness and love instead of hate? I am curious as my X did the same."
That's an excellent question. Why can't the alcoholic just stop drinking? Why don't women just leave their abusive (or gay) husbands? Why don't fat people just lose weight? Or as lostdad shared, why didn't I just stay married, continue having sex with my wife, or stop having sex altogether? I've heard this argument before. Hell I tried to live it. My answer to all of the "just" arguments may shock you. If you really want to understand your gay exes, why don't you just have gay sex yourselves? Come on. It's not that hard and everyone should try it once right? It's a college thing so please, just go out and have homosexual sex. I'm sure that some of you probably flinched when I suggested you have gay sex. It might have even repulsed you a little bit. Now take that feeling and stretch it over 20+ years and see how it changes everything about you. It eroded my soul...despite being with a wonderful and caring woman.
I haven't forgotten your question so I'll try to answer it. Through this process, I've come to believe two things: first, that the way I treat others is truly a reflection of the way I feel about myself; and second, I don't believe that meeting and marrying my (ex) wife was by chance. When my ex-wife and I first met, I had the strength and innocence to pretend that I was happy. But I wasn't. After all, I was doing what society wanted and encouraged. I was programmed from birth to meet a girl, fall in love, get married, and have babies. I think there are two ways to deal with self-hatred: internalize it through addictions or lash out. I did both and the easiest target was unfortunately my (then) wife. Don't get me wrong, the abuser is still the *sshole. I was really an *sshole. I was such an *sshole that my photo should have been in the dictionary under the word "a-hole". I cringe when I read so many kind women describe the many terrible things I did when writing about their husbands. It's like some kind of f*cked up blueprint. While I never physically abused my wife, there was definitely neglect, emotional abuse, lying, and later cheating. I was capable of all these things because this is who I was then.
Why didn't I just treat her with love and kindness you ask? I wish I had. I wish I had let her down gently rather than violently ended my relationship. Unfortunately, for the last two years of our marriage, I was almost totally incapable of love and kindness. Before I finally came out, love and kindness were as foreign to me as the Chinese language. Others only express themselves through violence whereas I did so through anonymous sex, lying, and neglect. I'm not proud of it but I also know I'm no longer that person. You know I can't remember a single face of the countless guys I hooked up with during the final months of my marriage. They're all just as faceless and meaningless as how I felt about myself at the time. It felt like the fog of drug addiction really. I remember the yearly mug shots of a woman who used crystal meth over 10 years or more. That's what living a lie did to me and I did the cowardly thing and turned that anger and resent against everyone who loved me. It's something I'm learning to accept.
In response those who think I shouldn't be here, I'd suggest you just stop reading my posts. Sorry for the obvious irony but it's easier said than done isn't it? Be well my friends.