And one last question!

(I'm the same person as above)

What is the part of intimacy (apart from sexuality) between a man and a man that is the most different than between a man and a woman?

Thanks, again
All the best

Thank you for posting Gloria and LuvDogs. In response to LuvDogs' questions: 

1. Thanks for your openess, Sean. I appreciate your honesty and desire to share to those confused and looking for answers they may not be getting from their spouses.

That's very kind of you but please keep in mind that I too was a toxic husband/father while closeted.  

2. Jumping to it...Did you ever feel you were actually in love with your wife?

The short answer is no, I didn't love my wife. I loved her for the part she played in this pretend life I'd created as a "straight" man. I loved her as a beard, as cover, and as an enabler. However, once I came out and was accepted by my friends & family, I no longer needed her. So I moved on. I don't believe I truly loved her because we're no longer close and I really don't stay in touch with her. It's sad, tragic, and I regret misleading her. But that's my truth. I discussed all of this here S4 Ep 3: A “Narcissist in Recovery” Gets Real - OurPath at around the 36 minute mark. I've been asked this question A LOT over the years. And I think it's because straight spouses want to feel like their marriages actually meant something...even if their husbands were questioning/closeted. Based on years of posting here, I believe that a closeted husband's (platonic) affection is conditional upon his wife remaining compliant, silent, and only if she does not question his sexuality. In my experience, the relationship turns abusive when the straight spouse dares to challenge him about his sexuality, their sexless marriage, and any gay porn/cheating because he needs to bully her back into submission/compliance. 

2. Did the validation you gave yourself for your authenticity (to yourself) ever cause you pain? Or was it more relief?

If you're referring to validation = coming out as a gay man, it was incredibly painful. Yes I was a toxic, manipulative narcissist, but deep down I still hated myself for coming out because it meant hurting my (then) wife and children. Initially it was a huge relief to come out to my friends & family, but I then had to work through the pain of separation/divorce. Telling my three children "mommy and I are divorcing" was by far the worst experience of my life and I assume it was the worst day of their lives as well. I digress. I reckon gay men who marry women and have children like I did will always have to live with two emotions: relief at finally coming out and yet lifelong regret for breaking up our families. 

3. Did you ever try to convince yourself it was other qualities about your wife you didn't like apart from sexuality?

That's a very good question. I should disclose that I am 100% gay with zero attraction to women, so there was never any sexual attraction during my gay/straight marriage. As far as qualities or personality traits that I didn't like about my wife, honestly I think I was the root cause of her: neediness; lack of self esteem; and controlling nature. As I shared in the above podcast, as a closeted man I made her feel like she was the cause of our relationship problems and, worse, that only she could fix it. The truth is, lying about and concealing my sexuality caused my break up and also eroded her emotional/mental stability. So saying that I didn't like her nagging would be wrong because I manipulated her to appear like the crazy one in our relationship because it helped hide my sexuality. I hope that makes sense on some level.  

4. And one last question! What is the part of intimacy (apart from sexuality) between a man and a man that is the most different than between a man and a woman?

Great question. I am firmly in the nature (born gay) rather than nurture (became gay) camp. On the rare occasions when people ask, "When did you choose to be gay?" I often retort: "When did you choose to be straight?" I knew I was attracted to boys/men starting around age 5, so I simply didn't know what it meant to be straight. Being gay is just who I am. With regards to intimacy, kissing my wife always felt forced, performative, and wrong. I've often said it felt like kissing my sister meaning that while there was affection, it always felt wrong somehow. I'm blathering on again so hopefully this example will help. My relationship with my girlfriend/wife always felt like a 50s-era black and white TV show (think the "Dick Van Dyke Show"), whereas my current relationship and intimacy with my boyfriend feels like an IMAX movie. Based on my exchanges here over the years, straight spouses go through something similar when they have sex with a straight man. The experience with a straight man just "clicks" or "feels right" and I'd say the same applies for me. Sex/intimacy with my (male) partner represents who I am. I hope that makes sense! 

Thanks again for your excellent questions friend. Please feel free to post again if my answers aren't clear. Be well!

Last edited by Sean (March 29, 2022 9:35 pm)

I am having a very difficult time and hoping to get some insight from others. My husband and I have been together for 20 years. There have been absolutely NO red flags. We had an amazing sex life until recently, when he started having erectile dysfunction that we suspected was due to some recent medical issues. (He has hypertension and has had 2 surgeries, including an epididectomy due to cysts in his testicles.) He can perform with me about 50% of the time and always when using viagra. He has a history of porn use. (I'll note that it was always girl-on-girl.) This bothered me but wasn't a deal breaker. However, I recently discovered that he had a grindr account that he had been using (from what I could find on his Google account history) for about 3 months. This began during a mental health crisis on my part in which I was very distant, both emotionally and sexually. We were social distancing due to family health issues and covid so we were very isolated. He says he is not gay, but felt very lonely during this time and used grinder only to chat because he felt lonely. His reasoning is that chatting with men didn't feel like cheating as bad and he knew he wouldn't be tempted to take it further than just an online chat, as he might if he was talking to women. We decided to try to move past it and he has been amazing. He deleted the account, gives me all his passwords, not even any porn use that I have found since then. The problem for me now is that with this knowledge, I cant attribute his sexual problems to medical issues anymore. When he can't perform, I immediately think it's because he'd rather be with a man and get very emotional. We both avoid sex now and our relationship is suffering. I don't know how to move past it and I'm having a hard time believing he is not at least bi and questioning if he is still attracted to me. I don't know what to do.

Thank you for posting Harlow and Sweetlisa. 

Replying to Harlow: 

1. I am having a very difficult time and hoping to get some insight from others. My husband and I have been together for 20 years. There have been absolutely NO red flags. We had an amazing sex life until recently, when he started having erectile dysfunction that we suspected was due to some recent medical issues. (He has hypertension and has had 2 surgeries, including an epididectomy due to cysts in his testicles.) He can perform with me about 50% of the time and always when using viagra.

I'm so very sorry you've found yourself here. I'm going to provide some feedback on your situation but please keep in mind that I'm not a mental health professional. I'd also add that you're a bit of a unicorn because most of the women who contact me haven't had sex with their husbands in years and/or he's never really demonstrated an interest in sex with women. 

2. He has a history of porn use. (I'll note that it was always girl-on-girl.)…

I'd modify that to: girl-on-girl as far as you know. 

3. This bothered me but wasn't a deal breaker. However, I recently discovered that he had a Grindr account that he had been using (from what I could find on his Google account history) for about 3 months.

What a coincidence! This is the first question I answered in a recent podcast: https://ourpath.org/ourpath_podcast/s5-ep-5-a-former-closeted-narcissist-in-recovery-answers-your-questions. Skip to 4:00 where I answer the "I just caught my husband on Grindr" issue. To re-cap, Grindr is a gay hook-up application and if your husband has an account, this suggests he's cheating on you with men. 

4. This began during a mental health crisis on my part in which I was very distant, both emotionally and sexually. We were social distancing due to family health issues and Covid so we were very isolated.

Bullsh*t. I'm going to assume that you're parroting his blame shift because this is the excuse he gave you. Am I correct? A supportive husband doesn't immediately turn to gay hook up apps like Scruff, Grindr, or Hornet because his wife is having mental health issues. A good husband helps his wife get through the mental health crisis through love and support.  

5. He says he is not gay, but felt very lonely during this time and used Grindr only to chat because he felt lonely...

More bullsh*t. Grindr is for man-on-man sex, not friendship. If he felt lonely, why didn't he buy a dog or, better yet, just chat with people on Facebook, WhatsApp, or any other of a dozen (platonic) social media apps? You don't have to take my word for it. Ask any gay man what Grindr is for, all of them will reply: "SEX." So he's lying. 

6. His reasoning is that chatting with men didn't feel like cheating as bad and he knew he wouldn't be tempted to take it further than just an online chat, as he might if he was talking to women.

Oh so he was on a gay hook up app to protect you (his wife)….m'yeah I'm calling bullsh*t on that too. Question: did he admit to cheating on you with men through Grindr? Some common signs of gay cheating: an obsessive interest in physical fitness (to get Grindr ready); a new look/haircut; lots of faceless naked selfies on his phone; body shaving; and sexy new underwear.  

7. We decided to try to move past it and he has been amazing. He deleted the account, gives me all his passwords, not even any porn use that I have found since then.

There is always a honeymoon phase after marital conflict, something I discuss during the above podcast. 

8. The problem for me now is that with this knowledge, I cant attribute his sexual problems to medical issues anymore. When he can't perform, I immediately think it's because he'd rather be with a man and get very emotional.

This is totally understandable and I apologize if I'm coming across as glib in the above answers. Quite often the head (meaning your mind) lags a straight spouse's heart (meaning you know in your bones he's "not straight"). If your husband has always had a strong libido and enjoys sex with you, the sexual disconnect often comes from a deep-seeded fear that a cheating husband is putting you at risk. This may explain his erectile dysfunction and performance issues. Setting aside the gay/straight question, I'd urge you both get tested for STDs/STIs because it's possible he's cheating on you and would also suggest you stop having sex and/or only practice safe sex (meaning condoms) from now on. Insisting on an STD/STI test is also a great way to confirm if he has cheated because only a cheating husband would resist such a test. 

9. We both avoid sex now and our relationship is suffering. I don't know how to move past it and I'm having a hard time believing he is not at least bi and questioning if he is still attracted to me. I don't know what to do.

I'm sorry you're suffering. To recap, a Grindr account strongly suggests he's attracted to and/or having sex with men. If you've enjoyed a healthy sex life for most of your marriage, he could be bisexual and just afraid of sharing this attraction with you for fear of losing you while also losing his straight identity. I am troubled by your mental health issues and hope you're getting professional help. If yes, I'd discuss all of this with a counsellor and further suggest you mention his attempted blame shifts: namely his bullsh*t excuses that he was on Grindr because he was lonely and because you were emotionally distant. I hope that helped my friend. 

Replying to Sweetlisa: 

1. Sean, Thank you so much for your brutal honesty.  I'm living your previous married situation with 2 children ages 7 and 9 and I'm the (clueless) wife. 

So sorry you've found yourself here my friend. 

2. I'm planning to divorce my husband this month on grounds of irreconcilable differences, although he doesn't know I know about his secret gay lifestyle. 

Understood. 

3. I don't think he's admitted it to himself but I've found evidence.   We've been married 14 years and I had to process the pain without him over the last few years because he's extremely defensive and doesn't want to break up the family (and he lies). 

Got it. Feel free to share more details in a follow up post. 

4. I wasnt planning on telling him I know anything about his secret Grindr email address becuase he'll rage, deny it, so I'll just blame it on something else when divorcing. 

Please see the above podcast link as I discuss the issue of closeted husbands on Grindr. 

5. Do you have any suggestions?  Thank you for what you are doing, I can't tell you how releived/happy I feel to have answers.

Sorry. I can't provide any advice for your divorce because I'm not an attorney, although I do discuss some divorce-related issues at the end of the above podcast. If you can provide a more detailed history, I might be able to provide some insight into your future ex-husband. Regardless, I would suggest having all of your legal and financial ducks in a row before initiating the divorce. 

6. I think he'll fight me all the way with attorneys and blame me, so if you have any advice on how to approach this I would appreciate it very much.

That's a very real possibility my friend. If you can provide more information about your marriage, sex life (or lack thereof), and your husband's cheating I could perhaps provide some insights. I hope to hear back from you. Be well! 

Last edited by Séan (April 5, 2022 5:41 pm)

Thank you for responding Harlow. In reply: 

1. Thank you Sean! I greatly appreciate you doing this to help women in these situations. I was worried that since the original post was from 2016 I might not get an answer, but you respond so quickly! It's awesome you have kept this up and it is so helpful to get answers from the man's perceptive.

That's very kind of you but please keep in mind that I was once a toxic, closeted, and cheating *sshole. But I'll gladly take the compliments! 

2. I wanted to clarify a few things and get your opinion on some things after clarification. I realized my statement about our sex life might be unclear. The 50% performance is when unmedicated. We have great sex without viagra about half the time. If hes medicated he never has erection problems with me.

Noted thanks. 

3. I'm wondering if the inconsistency points to it being more medical or psychological.

It could be physical (aging for example), emotional, or psychological but I'll leave that diagnosis to the experts. 

4. As far as his porn use, he knew it bothered me and hid it. I've always found the porn while snooping, so he may be watching gay porn as well, but the only porn I have found was always girl on girl.

Understood. 

5. Would he even be interested in girl-on-girl if he is gay?

He'd be interested in watching the men yes, however, most gay men I know enjoy gay porn. 

6. I'm assuming he'd hide the gay porn in the same manner and I've never found that.

I agree. 

7. I'm fairly certain my husband hasn't taken it further than chats. I know I sound like I am in denial, but during the time his account was active, he was working from home and socially distancing so we were literally always together, as far as appearance, my husband actually did the opposite and let himself go during this time (gained about 20 pounds, quit working out, no new clothes, hardly even showered.) He also had a golf ball sized epididimal cyst that he was very self conscious about, so I'm fairly confident he wasn't hooking up with anyone else.

Cheating is like an iceberg, 9/10ths is always under water. I've never had contact with a straight spouse who didn't deny, minimize, or downplay her husband's cheating, porn history, or Grindr use. To look at your situation objectively, you might try writing all of this down as if your best friend, sister, or adult daughter told you the same story. For example, "Barbara caught her husband Jim on Grindr. Jim denied that he's gay and strongly denied any cheating." Or perhaps you can share all of this with someone who doesn't know your husband and/or isn't invested in the two of you staying together. Doing both might help you gain some perspective on your own situation. 

8. I do agree that his excuses are bull. Gay/bi aside, cheating on your wife during her mental health crisis is pretty shitty.

Here we agree! 

9. He continues to swear he isn't gay. I wish he'd be honest with himself and to me. If he's bi, still attracted to me, and his sexual problems are medical, I want to make this work. I see no reason his attraction to men in addition to women has to be a deal breaker if he is committed to a monogamous relationship with me. He can be attracted to men without acting on it. I'm fine with that.

As a gay man who divorced, I'm probably not the best person to address these issues. As such, I'd suggest posting on the mixed orientation marriage (MOM) section of this forum or perhaps posting your questions here: www.reddit.com/r/StraightBiPartners. 

10. My fear is that he is more gay than bi and this is the root of his sexual problems.

It's certainly possible, however, if you've had a satisfying sex life up until now and you continue having sex, that suggests your husband is bisexual. Regardless, I urge you to both get tested for STIs/STDs and to use condoms going forward because husbands who use Grindr (a gay hook up app) on the down low aren't the most honest people when it comes to being honest about cheating. The last thing you want is to catch some lifelong or life-threating STI because your husband hooked up "once" with another guy. So I suggest proceeding with caution.  

11. If this is the case I don't think I can continue in this marriage, but it's hard for me to leave when he won't open up to me about who he truly is. Do you think there is hope for us?

There is always hope, provided you both define love and marriage the same way. Asking a struggling husband, "Are you gay?" rarely works. So perhaps you could ask him: 

- What should I do in this situation, meaning after having caught you on a gay sex app? 
- How do you define gay? 
- Can two men love each other? 

This is something I discussed at about the four-minute mark here: https://ourpath.org/ourpath_podcast/s5-ep-5-a-former-closeted-narcissist-in-recovery-answers-your-questions. Based on the information you provided, namely that your husband has always enjoyed sex with you, I think posting on the reddit forum (see above) or perhaps asking these same questions in the MOM section might help. As a gay ex-husband who divorced, I'm not the most objective person to address your issues. 

Be well! 

Last edited by Sean (April 6, 2022 10:23 am)