Thank you for writing HopelessRomantic ("HR") and OSD. HR previously wrote on her thread: 

I love him. We’re best friends and we’re perfect for each other in pretty much every other way... it’s *mostly* the romantic aspect of our relationship that’s always been a problem... albeit a big problem because that aspect of life is important to me.

I've seen this a lot over the years, namely straight spouses who write "I love him and we're best friends" only to share a horrifying grocery list of lies, cheating, and abuse. While I'm not a mental health professional, I'm going to try to highlight the disconnect between the man you want him to be and the man he is, namely: 

1. He says he’s never cheated, and I 100% believe him.

I don't! I want you to gage your husband's honesty over the entirety of your relationship on a scale of 1-10. Zero (0) means he's pathologically dishonest and ten (10) means Jesus-like honesty. If your husband hid, lied, and then minimized things like his crossdressing and porn habits, then he's likely lying about cheating.  

2. He has always been honest that nudity does not arouse him. He likes lingerie, there’s nothing “sexy” about genitalia. I will note that I’ve never actually caught him checking out men, I HAVE seen his face light up like Christmas morning over seeing attractive women... as I get older, I wonder how much of that admiration is actually lust vs envy. (Does he want to sleep with her, or BE her? He’s a crossdresser/sissy and closeted trans, so it’s not that much of a stretch. But he swears up and down to like women and he does seem attracted to other women so who knows.)

This makes ZERO sense and you know it my friend. In fact, I had to read it 3x to make sense of his word salad. I'd explore narcissism and gaslighting with a qualified therapist because this mealy-mouthed statement is textbook gaslighting. So he's saying he loves dressing like a woman, loves looking a beautiful women, but doesn't like your va-jay-jay nor seeing you nude. So the bottom line is he likes women but just not you? Saying he doesn't find you attractive doesn't sound like love nor friendship in my opinion.  

3. We had a *decent* sex life for maybe a year when we first started dating. It quickly deflated.

"Decent." This is the biggest red flag in my opinion and I applaud you for making such an honest statement...but then you immediately start parroting his bullsh*t excuses, namely:  

4. Since we’ve been married, sex has ranged from once a week (at best) to a couple times a year, and at one point we had about a year long dry spell. He chalks this up to my sex drive being higher than his...

So it's your fault? This is called a blame shift and it's complete horsesh*t. 

5. ...him being tired/sore/stressed from work, and feeling repressed because vanilla sex is ‘boring’ (gee thanks) and he needs his fetishes (crossdressing, abdl, pegging, being dominated) to get him in that mindset.

Most men take about 5-15 minutes to reach climax during sex so the "I'm tired" excuse doesn't justify going a year without having sex with you. He's making a choice. He never seems too tired to post comments on his favourite sub forums about cross dressing and adults who wear diapers so the facts suggest he's avoiding sex with you. And he's shifting the blame on you yet again with this "vanilla sex" (read: sex with his wife) bullsh*t. Sounds like he has zero issue getting it up online or with other partners and yet he refuses to have sex with you. You deserve better.  

6. He’s admitted that his sex drive has virtually nothing to do with me. (Apparently that’s supposed to make me feel better?!) And I believe this, because he’s rarely ever seems aroused by ME, he usually seems either just randomly horny or he’s aroused by feminizing himself.

Ok so he's stated he's not sexually attracted to you. Is this a relationship worth saving? 

7. The stars have to align perfectly for him to get off during normal intercourse. Right now that makes sense...

No it doesn't make sense but I am familiar with closeted/questioning husband demanding straight wives jump through endless hoops before he'll agree to have sex. These can be (but aren't limited to): she has to shower; shave; lights off; lights on; only specific positions; she always has to be on top and so on. The bottom line is he's rejecting you sexually, and now cue the blame shift...

8. I just had a baby and it takes awhile for everything to fully bounce back, but 5 years ago? Pre-children? When we were both in our 20’s?! The only way he can get off is laying on his back, with his eyes closed, and not really participating much but receiving a lot of stimulation.

See a pattern? So he no longer wants to have sex with you because you had a baby...five years ago? Again, blame shift, gaslighting, and outright lying. Questions: what has he ever apologised, accepted blame, or promised to change? While I don't have a lot of information here, it sounds like he's wrongly blaming you for everything wrong with your relationship.  

9. He has absolutely no interest in performing anal and says it’s unsanitary, but he really really likes pegging (being on the receiving end of anal play).

This is classic gaslighting: up is down, left is right, anal is gross but I love it. Statement: I hate anal / unless you're performing anal on me. So he likes to be pegged or penetrated with toys/dildos.    

10. The first time he went down on me was 2 years into our relationship... on our honeymoon. He had no interest in trying it before that because it grossed him out.

Again, saying "I don't like your body" isn't love nor friendship.

11. He has since decided that he enjoys it, and even mentioned a few weeks ago that he prefers doing that to actual sex.

This is a classic diversion. It let's these men claim "we're still having sex because I'm doing oral on my wife" to distract from the fact that he can't get an erection, even with viagra or similar meds. I'm going to assume that you recently made noises about separation and divorce which then prompted his total about-face on performing oral on his wife. Remeber what he said: "It grossed him out..." and now "since decided he enjoys it." Pay attention to what happened between these statements. I'm going to assume you made noises about leaving him but feel free to confirm. 

12. Sometimes he seems to enjoy receiving blowjobs, sometimes it’s apparent that he’s annoyed by me and is waiting for it to end. (What kind of straight man gets annoyed by his wife wanting to give him blowjobs?!)

100% agree. Let's just assume he's not a "straight" man then. 

13. I used to jump through hoops trying to get his attention. He said he liked slutty clothes, so I wore them. He liked the goth-dominatrix look, I tried it. He liked the schoolgirl-Lolita look, I tried it. Etc. My closet used to look like the costume closet of a porn studio. I got wayyy to much attention from other men, but virtually none from him. He always wanted whatever I wasn’t.

This sounds a lot like an abusive relationship: meaning you believe the onus is always on you to fix his problems and yet he's never happy with you. I'd encourage you to discuss this with a mental health professional.  

14. He’s made several insensitive remarks about my looks over the years, basically insinuating that I’m not very attractive.

Again, is this love/friendship? One way to gain clarity over a situation is to imagine if your best (female) friend or perhaps an adult daughter came to you with the same story. What advice would you give them? 

15. He later excused these remarks by first saying that he thought talking about me that way was okay because he’s heard me say similar things about myself (I’ve got some self esteem issues due to past traumas) and later claiming that he wasn’t even talking about me. He was. Then he tells me he thinks I’m beautiful and all that jazz.

He's an abuser, not a husband. When you called him out on his abusive behaviour and mentioned boundaries he: 

- Shifted blame: "well you talk about yourself the same way"
- Distracted: "I wasn't talking about you..." 
- Gaslit you: "I don't think you're attractive...but now I think you're beautiful." 

16. He’s always been amused by the fact that he ‘passes’ for a girl well enough that men will occasionally check him out before noticing he’s a man. He claims it’s because he thinks the look on their face when they realize he’s a man is hilarious.

There is nothing funny about this. In fact it's deadly serious. He's telling you he likes attention from men. So he's now presenting/dressing as a woman in public, he likes to be on the receiving end of anal sex, and he enjoys when men are attracted to him. Is this man still your best friend and the love of your life?   

17. When we were arguing about his crossdressing/feminizing, I tried to put things in perspective by asking how he’d feel I started presenting masculine. What if I cut all my hair off, stopped shaving, never wore makeup or plucked my eyebrows or did any type of feminine grooming, and started wearing men’s clothes? He said it wouldn’t bother him as long as my personality was the same.

Says Mr. Personality. This man is a complete *sshole. You deserve so much better. I hope/pray your kids are ok. 

18. His love/attraction to me doesn’t really have anything to do with how I look.

And yet he's spent years telling you you're unattractive and that he isn't sexually attracted to you. He wants you to continue loving him unconditionally, even if when he's presenting as female. 

19. As I told him, if that’s true, then he’s an anomaly because I don’t think that’s normal at all.

100% agree! 

20. He’s on sub forums for crossdressers, trans people, feminine men, abdl [adult baby diaper lover], etc... He doesn’t post...

Lie.

21. but he comments.

That's posting. So again, he's lying. 

22. The comments all seem harmless and platonic, like he’s just encouraging friends with similar interest. Kind of the same way women pay each other compliments when we like each others hair/makeup/clothes. But it still makes me wonder.

Harmless and platonic? Wha? He's minimizing his behaviour. It's the same thing as, "Yes I cheated once but I thought of you the whole time." Or "I went to the sex shop but just browsed. Didn't buy a thing honey!" Again I think you're parroting his bullsh*t excuses/justifications. Years ago I had an exchange with a straight spouse whose husband frequented gay saunas, "but just to talk to other men" she added. I wrote back, "Well he ain't buying car insurance. Gay saunas are for gay sex, not conversation."     

23. He says he’s never cheated, and I 100% believe him. But what are the odds that all these little things are coincidental and due to the multitude of excuses I’ve been fed? He swears up and down that he’s straight (likes women). My intuition says that he might not realize it but he’d be happier with some kind of dominant drag queen... though I really really hope I’m wrong. Goodness gracious. Sorry about the novel. 

That's quite the story my friend. And no I don't believe his "never cheated" statement. Here are my suggestions: 

- Continue posting on your thread regularly.
- Read up on narcissism, gaslighting, and abusive relationships.
- Start seeing a qualified therapist who has experience with trauma and/or abused wives
- If you cannot afford a therapist, find a free support group and share all of this women who have gotten out of abusive relationships. 
- Re-write your entire story using your best (female) friend's name rather than yours. This should help you gain some perspective on your situation. For example, "Donna's husband Jim is a cross dresser, he refuses to have sex with her, and he's spent years saying he doesn't find her attractive." Then ask yourself: what advice would I give Donna? 

I have zero experience with cross dressing but I do know a thing or two about toxic, abusive, and dishonest husbands. And I believe your husband has abused you through his words, his sexual neglect, and his manipulations...for years. You deserve better than a sexless marriage to this complete *sshole. I can only imagine what all of this is doing to your poor child/children. Ask yourself: if my daughter were married to the same man, would I tell her to stay or get the f*ck out? I reckon you'd suggest the latter but feel free to answer in a follow-up post. Thinking of you and your family my friend. 

Last edited by Sean (March 11, 2022 6:11 am)

Still thinking. Yes, I'm being too nice. But, I don't want a life full of hostility. And I think motive matters. My husband is still in denial, lying to the world. But part of that is because he thinks he is supposed to: he thinks he is protecting me, and the family. I know, you are going to say that he's protecting himself and hurting the family, and yes, that is true, too. It is also true that he is gay and also true that he is a human being who has worked very hard to support the family and take care of us as best as he is able -- with a lot of convoluted work-arounds, because he was born a gay man into a family and a world that made that an unacceptable person to be. Many of my gay men friends credit their mothers for giving them the strength to be who they are. My husband did not have that mother. Her love is totally conditional, actually, it isn't even love. It is all about appearances, warped. So. I am going to have to get my son to a safe place - I agree that dad's closet is part of the problem, but Dad is also a major part of the solution, and I think we are going to get a scary diagnosis, maybe bipolar, maybe harder, from the hospital at the end of the month. Since the situation blew up, my husband has been working round the clock to help my troubled son. So. First things first, get son to safety, the gently restructure, in so far as I can control the gently. I want an honest life for myself, one in which I can breathe, but I do love the guy. And we got together in a very different world. Really hoping for a brighter future for a whole bunch of us. Sean, thanks again - and by the way, are you too hard on yourself?  What were your motives when you tried to play a role that was too hard? I bet some were generous, too. It is hard to get unstuck when that means dismantling a family, and losing a person who has been a life partner for quite some time. 

Thank you for sharing friends. Below are my comments/replies. 

Rose wrote: 

1. Still thinking. Yes, I'm being too nice. But, I don't want a life full of hostility. And I think motive matters.

Understood. 

2. My husband is still in denial, lying to the world. But part of that is because he thinks he is supposed to: he thinks he is protecting me, and the family. I know, you are going to say that he's protecting himself and hurting the family...

Correct. 

3. and yes, that is true, too. It is also true that he is gay and also true that he is a human being who has worked very hard to support the family and take care of us as best as he is able -- with a lot of convoluted work-arounds, because he was born a gay man into a family and a world that made that an unacceptable person to be.

Fair comments. 

4. Many of my gay men friends credit their mothers for giving them the strength to be who they are. My husband did not have that mother. Her love is totally conditional, actually, it isn't even love. It is all about appearances, warped.

Serious question: who is the real victim in this marriage? I haven't read a lot about how you've suffered and how you're feeling at the moment. Your focus appears to be mostly on him. One of the common themes I've encountered both in my own gay/straight marriage and during countless exchanges with straight spouses is that HE is always the focus. HE'S always suffering the most, HE'S always the victim, and SHE always has to try harder. As I shared during a recent interview with a straight spouse, her husband is her abuser and remains highly abusive...despite all of his self-diagnosed and mealy-mouthed explanations. If a man punches me in the face in the street, I can rightfully focus on that violent act. I'm not going to delve into how my agressor's angry mom forced him to beat me up. So what's my point? I believe closeted husbands choose kind, caring, and completely selfless wives for a reason. It's because these spouses enable and/or explain away their totally unacceptable behaviour. When you take away his back story, he's just another dishonest and emotially abusive cheater. What's tragic about these relationships is that she believes, often to the bitter end, that she can some how will him to be a better man. Sadly, that rarely happens.     

5. So. I am going to have to get my son to a safe place - I agree that dad's closet is part of the problem, but Dad is also a major part of the solution, and I think we are going to get a scary diagnosis, maybe bipolar, maybe harder, from the hospital at the end of the month. Since the situation blew up, my husband has been working round the clock to help my troubled son.

Good. I'm happy he's acting like a father and I'm very sorry you and your sons are suffering. 

6. So. First things first, get son to safety, then gently restructure, in so far as I can control the gently.

You can't...but please come back and share how that works out. 

7. I want an honest life for myself, one in which I can breathe, but I do love the guy. And we got together in a very different world. Really hoping for a brighter future for a whole bunch of us.

Amen. 

8. Sean, thanks again - and by the way, are you too hard on yourself? 

It's certainly possible. 

9. What were your motives when you tried to play a role that was too hard?

At the very end, I was motivated by one thing: toxic self-centredness. 

10. I bet some were generous, too. It is hard to get unstuck when that means dismantling a family, and losing a person who has been a life partner for quite some time.  

I totally agree. Keep coming back friend. 

HopelessRomantic Wrote: 

1. Thank you so much for your in-depth response. Not at all what I was hoping to hear, but everything you said makes perfect sense... and yes, if my little sister came to me a few years from now and described herself in a relationship like mine I would tell her to leave him.

Ok so we're on the same page. 

2. I think abusive is a strong word. Toxic and dishonest are both fair statements... but I was in an abusive relationship for the entirety of high school, and this is not that. He has never raped me, he has never been violent with me or even threatened to do so. I have never feared for my life or safety with my husband. I do understand that being toxic or dishonest are still big problems on their own.

I hear you and apologize if I overstepped any boundaries. 

3. As for his involvement on forums, he does not know that I’ve seen that. I did a little snooping... not proud. I didn’t hack his accounts or snoop through his devices. I’ve only seen what he’s posted publicly on his reddit account. I don’t use reddit, and I’ve always been trusting so he had no reason to censor himself there. (That’s how I know he’s secretly been toying with the idea of being trans.)

Again these things are like icebergs...so please prepare yourself for the day you discover the remaining 9/10ths he's hidden from you. After all, he hid that's he's considering transitioning. If he's secretive with a possible transition, hides his devices, stays up late at night (alone) online, and takes a lot of revealing photos alone, I think he's swappin' more than cake recipes on the world wide web. You've been warned! 

4. I still don’t think he’s cheating (yet)...

Sigh. I'm going to assume that cheating is an emotional red line for you so let's leave that issue for now. However, with regards to his secrecy and dishonesty, I'm happy to quote you again: "...he’s secretly been toying with the idea of being trans." While you posted this rather casually, I personally believe it's a massive red flag that your husband is hiding: a. that he's seriously contemplating changing his sex; and b. that he hasn't discussed any of this with you, his wife. 

5...but from what I’ve seen you tell others, it sounds like that’s the next step so I will brace myself.

Be ready! 

6. There’s a bit of a disconnect between my head and heart right now, so I’m having a hard time accepting all this.

I know and I sincerely apologize if I've pushed too hard. 

7. You asked if he’s ever taken responsibility/blame, and he does. 

How? From what you've shared with me, it sounds like he's always the victim and/or claims everything is your fault. 

8. But it almost feels like martyrdom and I find myself consistently trying to defend him and shoulder half the blame. I’m pretty sure I’m being love-bombed right now.

If you're openly making noises about separation and divorce, there is a strong possibility that he's doing the bare minimum (such as oral sex) to trap you in the marriage again. 

9. I’m suspicious of his timing. The first time he chose to be ‘honest’ was on our honeymoon, while we were struggling with infertility. This time, it was right after I gave birth, struggling with either baby-blues or PPD and complications. Is that a common trend for GID? Are they really that cruel...

I'm not sure if it's cruelty. I reckon it's more like blindingly toxic self centredness. 

10...that they’d intentionally wait until we’re most vulnerable to start playing games with our heads, or is it just bad timing?

That is text book narcissism...perhaps something you should explore via coda.org or with a qualified mental health professional. 

Thank you both for sharing. Please feel free to post again. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean (March 12, 2022 5:10 am)

Lily, this comment about passive abuse made big lightbulbs for off for me! It’s SO helpful to have a label that fits my experience. He starved me emotionally, but if he starved me physically I would have left right away. He did crueler things with his words than call me names or say outright, red-flag comments. I’ve been through deep rejection and scapegoating from my family, his mom, many of our Evangelical church “friends” and of course sometimes I cried or vented my hurt feelings. It was far worse for him to shrug and give a disgusted look at me when a true, connected husband (or even friend!) would have given a warm hug to comfort me. That killed my soul worse than the actual behavior from others that prompted my pain.

I’ve had a few therapy sessions since deciding to divorce him, and the trauma is really evident now. This is the same therapist who saw me a few years ago when I didn’t know he was gay or that he was facilitating this abuse and scapegoating from our families/church. I believe God set up this beautiful safety net for me so when he came out to me I’d have one trusted person who can really help me recover. I’m going to mention this idea of passive abuse to her. Maybe do some journaling and art around it! I see it like him setting up traps and sharp things around me, then beckoning me to come to his open arms for affection - but he’s luring me into the sharp traps so I always fall over bleeding and crying before I reach him. And then he gets to look disgusted and say, “What are you doing?! You’re so stupid and clumsy. THIS is why we never have sex and I can’t support you. I try to hug you and then you go into crazy victim mode like your mom.”

Thanks for writing LMM. While I won't comment on your message to Lily, but I'm happy to respond to your last post to me: 

1. Sean, your podcast interview on SSN continues to be helpful for us! Last week my husband told me he listened to it again and saw more similarities to his own behaviors and motivations. He’s able to name and own up to things he did even more. His therapy is helping with that, too.

Progress! Thanks for the shout out but I reckon you're also setting clear boundaries with your future ex-husband since you decided to divorce...meaning you're no longer buying his particular line of bullsh*t. 

2. He [closeted husband] has one friend and told that friend right at the beginning of this coming out about our divorce and why it’s happening.

I believe this might be the same friend you mentioned during our interview (LMM/Charlotte interview link: https://cutt.ly/RABYaP5). If yes, I believe this is the first person your future ex-husband apparently came out to. Am I correct? 

3. The friend remained sort of supportive but kept making comments to us that marriage is a serious vow before God, and we shouldn’t give up.

I'd suggest repeating to yourself the following mantra: "believe, but verify." If I remember correctly, during our interview you gave your husband a 2/10 on the honesty scale; with 0/10 being pathological dishonesty and 10/10 being Jesus-like honesty. In my opinion, this scale applies to everything he tells you, such as opinions of people who coincidentally support his belief that you two need to remain married. He's more than capable of manipulating others because closeted/questioning husbands are so practiced at it. So I'd suggest you identify his opinion (we need to stay together), believe but verify everything that he tells you, and continue to apply your own scale that about 20% of what he tells you is accurate...with 80% being fake/dishonest/manipulative.   

4. So he sent that interview link to the friend, who listened and told us both, “If your situation is anything at all like this, I understand. Divorce is right. I didn’t have any idea how hard this has been and you guys are doing the right thing.”

Good! Question: is your husband still fighting to stay married to you? If yes, I'm glad you had direct contact with this friend who now agrees that you should divorce. In future, I'd encourage you to write down any "_____ told me" or "_______ thinks" statements by your future ex-husband so that you can independently verify what he's saying while also applying your honesty scale that 80% of what he's saying is dishonest, manipulative, or just flat-out bullsh*t. While I don't want to frighten you, if your husband remains terrified by divorce, as you move forward he's going to ramp up the lies, abuse/bullying, manipulations, and guilt trips to try to trap you back in your toxic relationship. This is why I believe it's important to document and verify everything he says and does.   

5. It was so good for me to have this support, as this friend is also a trusted and valued person to me. I don’t know if anything we said could have opened his eyes like that!

I'm glad you're gaining support. Thanks for sharing friend and thank you again for agreeing to do an interview with me (LMM/Charlotte interview link: https://cutt.ly/RABYaP5). Please keep coming back. 

Last edited by Sean (March 12, 2022 3:49 pm)