“My advice to my younger self would probably be: Ask him if he's straight...haha”

Yes!!! But I asked all the right questions even at the beginning all those years ago (30 years and monogamous) and he always considered himself straight, but damaged from the childhood sexual abuse until just a couple years ago when he began to consider himself bi. I’ve seen posts where men in their 60s have their first thoughts that they’re bi and not straight. 😳

Thank you for writing everyone.  Here are the facts:   

1. The US divorce rate among heterosexual couples is approximately 45%. 
2. The US divorce rate among mixed orientation marriages (gay/bisexual + straight) is approximately 80%. 
3. Following disclosure of a spouse's homosexuality/bisexuality to a straight spouse, 1/3 of couples divorce immediately, 1/3 remain married for 18-24 months, and 1/3 remain married for 2 years or more.     
4. The average duration of a MOM following disclosure is 24 months before the couple divorces.  

In response to what you wrote:   

Dutchman: "Sexual orientation isn't a choice, but how you handle it IS!"  

Thank you for sharing my friend. This sounds a lot like:  

"Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection. (Emphasis added)" 

The above is taken from the Catholic Church. If I'm reading your statement correctly, you appear to accept that people are born gay but can then choose (yes/no) whether to have same sex partners? Correct? For example, I believe your wife is a lesbian (not bisexual) and you are a straight man. You are both monogamous and she no longer has sex with women, although I assume her desire to be with women is still there. Please let me know if I've summarised your words and situation correctly. So let's turn this around and see if your logic still stands. My challenge to you Dutchman is this: to prove your hypothesis, I want you to choose to have sex with a man for, say, just a month. This would then help you understand what gay people experience when they force themselves to sleep with opposite-sex partners. This shouldn't be too difficult, because as you wrote: "how you handle sexual orientation is a choice." Like your lesbian wife, I'd like you to just suppress your attraction to women and have sex with a man for 30 days. Then please come back and report on how it all went.  

Tangled: "But I asked all the right questions even at the beginning all those years ago (30 years and monogamous) and he always considered himself straight, but damaged from the childhood sexual abuse until just a couple years ago when he began to consider himself bi. I’ve seen posts where men in their 60s have their first thoughts that they’re bi and not straight."  

So much to unpack! So we're back to

"I was molested which made me gay/homosexual"; and
"I only discovered I was attracted to the same sex in my late 50s." 

As I did above with Dutchman, let's turn those statements around: 

"I was molested which made me straight/heterosexual"; and 
"I only discovered I was attracted to the opposite sex in my late 50s." 

Click here to see my previous posts about "abuse made me gay." Hmmm. Funny how we find a million ways to explain away dirty/evil homosexuality and yet the same logic falls apart when we apply it to pure/Godly heterosexuality. Just as I challenged Dutchman to sleep with a man to prove his point that "how we act sexually is a choice" I'm calling bullsh*t on the whole "abuse made me gay" and "wow I just figured out my sexuality" thing. As I've posted many times before, sexual abuse is barbaric, traumatising, and rightfully illegal....particularly childhood sexual abuse. If I remember correctly Tangled, you and I have posted differing opinions about this. As a gay man who effortlessly lied about his sexuality for decades, I know that many gay-in-denial (not bisexual-in-denial) husbands are pathological liars and manipulators. We're not bad people per se, but we're damn good at distracting from our God-given sexuality. [Yes I know Tangled that your husband is none of these things, as he seems like a very kind, honest, and caring man.] But a lot of gay-in-denial husbands described on this message board are delusional. And a great way to distract an angry wife, considering divorce because she just found another Craigslist "discreet husband looking for d*ck" advert is to yell "fire" by claiming sexual abuse. So I tend to be skeptical when deeply closeted gay men with their backs against the wall suddenly claim "a man touched me in college which made me gay." Because the real version is often more like: "Ok so I went to a gay bar, nervously hung around a bathroom stall for 30 minutes, and blew some guy...BUT I DIDN'T ENJOY IT!" Moreover, you should look at the source. If your husband has: not had sex with you in three years because "he's tired"; denied being gay for decades; lied about gay porn habits; lied/concealed his gay sex toy collection; and continued to deny he's cheating on you even in the face of overwhelming evidence...then maybe he's making all of this up as well. It's certainly possible! So when your pathologically dishonest husband now claims he was sexually abused, I reckon straight wives are more than justified in being skeptical. (Click here to see my previous posts.) As for men just discovering they are gay or bisexual, I'm calling bullsh*t on that too. Every gay man I know (who isn't still married to a woman) says their sexual awakening started like most other children: between the ages of 5-12. If you want to cut through all the bullsh*t on this topic, just ask yourself whether you "discovered" you were heterosexual in your teens or in your 60s. I mean if it applies to gay people then straights must experience the same thing as well right? How many of your straight friends say with confidence: "Wow I just woke up one day in my 50s and realized I was attracted to the opposite sex. What a revelation!" Said no one ever. So I reckon your bisexual husband is telling you a gentler version of his sexual journey to make it easier for you, his wife, to understand why he's physically attracted to men and yet still married a woman. End of rant!

JS wrote: My husband is bisexual...not gay (It still seems a bit odd even typing that sometimes...maybe because nothing actually changed in our relationship). I have way too high of a libido to attempt a MOM with a gay man (though I might make an exception for Antoni Porowski). My advice to my younger self would probably be: Ask him if he's straight...haha  

Anthony Porowski....grrrrrr. As I've shared in previous posts, I firmly believe that sexuality exists on a spectrum. I myself am 100% gay with zero attraction to women. Similarly, there are people who are 100% straight so logically there are those in between. When straight spouses hear "I'm bisexual" from their husbands, I often write that the proof is in the bedroom. You know your husband is bisexual because: a. he told you; and b. you're still having passionate sex. For me personally, bisexuality means an attraction to and having sex with both sexes. Sadly, most straight spouses come here because they haven't had sex with their husbands for years. This leads the straight spouse to play detective and she finds gay porn, gay chats, and exclusively gay hookups. Not a female lover nor female centerfold to be found.  

So what's my point? Not unlike the point I was trying to make with Tangled above, I reckon many gay husbands say "I'm bisexual" to soften the blow when it often has the opposite effect. When a husband finally admits, "I'm gay" as I did, she now understands what happened. When a closeted husband says, "I'm bisexual" she then rightfully thinks, "Well then why the f*ck aren't we having sex? You're attracted to women but just not me?" So I'm happy you're still having sex with your husband JS. Sadly, most of the straight spouses posting here are both sexually and emotionally starved.   

Thanks for sharing Dutchman, Tangled, and JS. Please feel free to post again if you disagree with me. And if anyone has questions for a gay ex-husband, please post them here. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean (February 17, 2021 9:50 am)

TangledOil wrote:

I never said any of that, Sean. I never said he was bi because he was molested. Those are two facts of his life though. I’d rather end the discussion now. My post was aimed at Julian Stone, not at you. Everyone is not like you, Sean, like you'd like to believe. And I don't believe you're the expert in anything in particular. 

All fair points! 

Thank you very much Dutchman and TangledOil for replying...and both very politely I might add. As I've shared in previous posts, I enjoy a good debate and you've both given me a lot to think about. If I have offended either of you, I apologize. I admit that we are approaching the issue of mixed orientation marriages (MOMs) from different perspectives. Both of you, Dutchman and TangledOil, are arguing that MOMs can be successful because your own MOMs are successful, whereas my own MOM was an utter disaster! So I reckon we all have biases based on our own experiences with moms as well as our different sexual orientations. I am a gay man and you are both heterosexuals with bisexual (Tangled) and lesbian (Dutchman) partners. The points I want to repeat here are as follows: 

1. Sexuality is not a choice:  

Sexuality is hard-wired. Yes there are still people who claim that we choose to be gay but that can be easily disproved/debunked with a few questions. 

a. Ask a heterosexual person: "When did you choose to be straight?" (Excellent video here)
b. Ask anyone (gay or straight): "Why would anyone choose to be gay: meaning part of a stigmatized minority group?" I reckon it would be like choosing to become morbidly obese. 

2. We still live in a heteronormative society: 

Heterosexuality is the standard or norm in most societies. For me personally, I was raised in a place and at a time when being gay was so stigmatized that I chose to marry a woman. Thankfully, attitudes are changing and people are coming out much younger. Hopefully, one day gay/straight marriages will no longer happen. Sadly, there are still people who believe that homosexuality is a treatable illness (see above) or can otherwise be overcome with things like prayer, conversion therapy, or counselling. 

3. Most Gay In Denial Husbands (GIDHs) Suffer from Severe Mental Illness: 

I know first-hand the terrible burden of hiding my sexuality, from both myself and my (then) wife. And thanks to my time here, I now understand how this burden shifts to straight wives (see below). Sadly, the burden of staying closeted gets heavier as GIDHs age and often reaches a breaking point when closeted husbands near their 40s. Like me, most GIDHs marry kind, caring wives who stick by gay husbands despite years of sexual neglect and emotional abuse. I am often struck by how often gay/straight marriages resemble narcissist/co-dependent relationships. 

4. Straight Wives are the Victims:

A straight spouse once posted, "Where's my f*cking parade?" While there is often overwhelming love and support directed towards a gay husband who comes out, there is little recognition for the straight wives and children we leave behind. For many straight spouses, just being married with kids feels like treading water with a brick in each hand. And a cheating gay spouse just adds to this burden. With the gay thing, she's now furiously treading water with two bricks in each hand and a closeted husband standing on her shoulders. It's too much! 

5. Bodies Speak Before Minds: 

Most straight wives posting here suffer from: depression; anxiety; and insomnia. While she may be posting things like, "he's my best friend" and "this has only brought us closer", physically she's often breaking down. Similarly, while the closeted husband claims to be bisexual and/or still attracted to his wife, his words are often as limp as his d*ck in the conjugal bedroom.

6. You Might Never Hear "I'm gay."

Imagine spending 20-30 years telling yourself the same lie. You inevitably become the lie. Just as straight people can never truly understand what it's like to be gay, honest people simply don't understand what it's like to be pathological liar when it comes to explaining your own sexuality. When a straight spouse asks "Are you gay?" she expects an honest response. Sadly, the two most common responses are: a. No I'm [insert gay thing here] because I'm [insert denial here] such as "No I'm only watching gay porn because I'm curious"; or b. I'm bisexual. 

7. Mixed Orientation Marriages (MOMs) 

MOMs are defined as marriages between a gay or bisexual spouse and a straight spouse. (Previous generations referred to these as "lavender" marriages.) For example, following disclosure of a husband's attraction to men, a straight spouse now finds herself in a mixed orientation marriage. Here are the statistics: 80% of MOMs end in divorce and most MOMs last an average of 24 months. Conversely, 20% of MOMs are successful and last more than 2 years. During MOMs, some couples choose to open their marriages, allowing the gay or bisexual partner to have sex outside of the marriage. Others choose monogamy. Some couples opt to introduce a new sex partner into the bedroom. When opening a marriage, it usually serves to accommodate the gay husband to meet his sexual needs. Few straight wives report feeling happier, closer to their husbands, or more sexually satisfied after opening the marriage...often reluctantly. Following my exchanges with Dutchman and Tangled, I tend to recommend divorce, perhaps without paying enough attention to: where the straight spouse is along her journey; and who she married. 

8. We all Travel Similar Paths

Whether the marriage continues or ends in divorce is up to the straight spouse. But the journey is often the same (click here to read the stages). Given what I've learned here these past 5 years and based on my own relationship, here is a brief summary: 

Doubt: "I think my husband is gay"
Discovery: Gay porn, sex toys, chats, or cheating
Conflict: "Are you gay?" 
Denial: "I was curious"
Reconciliation: Couples' counselling, therapy, and perhaps a MOM
Discovery/Conflict/Denial: repeat 3-7 times
Separation/Divorce

So what's a straight spouse to do? In the past, I was a huge advocate for divorce. However, I now think the straight spouse should: 

1. Determine what kind of relationship/marriage she wants (independent of the gay thing)
2. Focus on her own health, safety, and well-being
3. Focus on her children's health, safety, and well-being
4. Set a timeline to make a decision (work on the relationship or separate/divorce)
5. Determine where her husband is in his coming out journey (still lying, denying/minimizing, or honesty/acceptance). 
6. Determine whether her husband is (or will be) capable of being the man she needs, including meeting her physical needs. 
7. Choose a MOM, separation, or divorce. 

Please comment, critique, or post any questions below. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean (February 18, 2021 6:59 am)

Thanks Lily. Questions:

1. How did you discover your husband was gay? 
2. Did you ever go through a bargaining "well maybe he's bisexual" stage?
3. What made you finally decide to divorce rather than stay together?