Thank you for clarifying Violet. There is something you wrote that I would like to comment on if you don't mind. You wrote: 

1. Thank you so much Sean for your detailed answer. I really do appreciate your time and your perspective.

My pleasure. I'd encourage you to keep posting because for every straight wife sharing here, I reckon there are dozens more silently following. 

2. It's useful to see it all the red flags there in a list. The thing with my husband is that he did actually really like sex and my body but as I said there was an emotional detachment and the sex wasn't good and I even went to hypnotherapy to try and get myself to like it more!

I believe these two statements contradict each other, namely: "he did actually like sex and my body" vs. "there was an emotional detachment and the sex wasn't good." Normally when a husband is attracted to his wife, he is present and the sex is lots of fun. So there appears to be a disconnect and I'm not sure if you agree with me. (While reading this next part please keep in mind that I'm not a mental health professional.) When women first start posting here, many of them are in shock and demonstrate a similar form of cognitive dissonance (definition here). For example, some new members share, "My husband is my BEST FRIEND and LOVE of my life!" only to then provide a horrifying grocery list of common gay-in-denial (GID) behaviours such as years gay porn, cheating, lies, and emotional abuse. I think it goes without saying that you'd never let a "best friend" or even a co-worker to treat you like this. So what's my point? In the past, I've encouraged straight spouses to focus on how all of this affects them. Focus on priorities like your physical health, your emotional health, and making sure you're sleeping, eating right etc. Unfortunately, most straight wives continue to suffer from depression, anxiety, and insomnia because of "the gay thing" or "TGT." Sadly, TGT often eclipses everything else and some straight spouses find themselves doing most of the heavy lifting to save their marriages making counselling appointments, continuing to raise kids alone, and (sadly) continuing to tolerate emotionally abusive behaviour from their *sshole husbands. End of rant! 

3. The other weird thing is that the information about his dad also having his own struggles is also true as I found out this information from his mum. I think the really sad thing is that his dad has lived his whole life in the closet.

I stand corrected. Funny how history often repeats itself though. 

4. You are right about our era. I don't know if you're American or British but my husband grew up in a small town where there were no gay people and has internalised homophobia even though we have gay friends and live a very liberal way. I find it quite unbelievable how he has lived all this time pushing this down.

Don't forget to focus on the most important person here my friend: you. I'd also add that he's been neglecting you and your needs for what appears to be quite some time. You are justified in thinking "poor me" before thinking "poor he." 

5. My husband and his dad spoke today. My feeling is that it's all about to come out. The truth feels near to the surface now. I'll update you!

Please keep us posted and, as always, feel free to respond to my comments. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean (February 9, 2021 3:07 am)

Thanks for posting Violet. In reply: 

1. We had a long chat tonight. The confusion is overwhelming and exhausting!

I've sometimes referred to this as his "pink merry-go-round" meaning he'll talk, spin, and dazzle you to believe things like: "Just because I'm having sex with men doesn't make me gay....", "It was only a blowjob...", "It happened once..." and as you move closer to separation/divorce "I was molested as a child which made me gay." It's all bullsh*t of course. To say that most gay-in-denial-husbands (GIDHs) live in alternate realities would be an understatement. Many GIDHs are deft manipulators if not full-blown narcissists. So what should a straight wife do? I'd start by writing out answers to these sentences: 

For me personally, love means....
Marriage for me means....
A good husband should make me feel...
Right now in my marriage, I feel....

Then leave this document somewhere where you can read it every day. This is like a relationship constitution of sorts. Once you've defined the above on your own, you can now focus on whether to stay married to your husband or separate/divorce.  

2. Thanks for the reminder to look after my emotional health. I am really so focused on him and the never ending puzzle of our relationship and his sexuality! 

I'd urge you to find a good therapist for individual (not couples) counselling, keep posting here, and share all of this with a close friend or family member. Remember that you are the most important person in this relationship. However, focusing on the closeted husband's sexuality/issues is common following discovery of gay porn, cheating with men, or finding a tickle trunk of dildos for example. In most cases, the straight wife has been supporting her broken husband for years or even decades, even before the pink blowup. I'd be prepared for what's called a "honeymoon phase." This is a short period of "lovebombing" during which your husband may act like the man of your dreams and it often includes him attempting sex again. Terrified of losing his straight identity, the GIDH panics and spends a few weeks or perhaps a few months pretending to be the ideal husband. But once his wife is lured back in to the relationship, he'll be back on the porn, cheating, or visiting the local sex shop's video booths. 

3. I'll keep you posted as things progress. 

Please do! Going forward, I'd urge you to focus on two things: first, whether or not you feel loved and appreciated in this relationship. Ultimately, love is how we feel around our partners. Second, please focus on his actions rather than his words. Be well. 

Last edited by Sean (February 9, 2021 3:07 am)

Thanks for posting Epiphany. I didn't have a lot of information to work with so I've taken the liberty of reading your "I can't sleep" thread for additional details. In response to your post: 

1. When you were younger, did you ever label yourself as bisexual or have true desires for women sexually?

No. I am 100% gay and pretended to be straight to conform. 

2. My husband seems to have a pendulum and we are planning to explore that to see where he’s at, if it will come back this way again etc... he has some attraction to women still. I’ve seen his search history and know this (Victoria Secret models, sexiest underwear, Jessica Biel butt etc).

There are two red flags here: first, you wrote "we are planning to explore..." which to me means that you're doing most of the work to save your relationship. If you're making all of the counselling appointments, nagging him to attend, and then trying to get him to open up after couples' counselling, you'd be justified in writing "I'm alone trying to determine if that's where he's at." My question for any straight spouse is always: what exactly is he doing to save your relationship? Second red flag, with regards to his search history, clearly he can type in hetero-sounding searches (words), likely knowing you'll see all of this, but is this hetero version of your husband now showing up in the bedroom (actions)? As I wrote in our previous exchange, pay attention to his actions not bullsh*t like words and online search histories. 

3. We have also been intimate recently and he actually told me I was going too far with role playing...

I believe I wrote in our previous exchanges that most gay/straight couples go through a "honeymoon" phase during which the scared closeted husband reluctantly: goes to counselling; tries to resume intimacy; and, for a time, stops with the gay porn/cheating. Now I'm going to assume "role playing" means you're acting like another man in the bedroom but please confirm. With regards to your health and safety, if you're having sex both of you need to get tested for STIs/STDs and only practice safe sex. It's also an excellent way to determine if he's been having sex outside of your marriage. You wrote in our previous exchange that your husband hasn't been cheating. Fine. Then he won't object to an STI test then because he has nothing to hide. If he resists, then you know that he has been cheating. I can't stress how important it is for you to protect yourself because the last thing you want is to catch a life-threating sexually transmitted disease. 

4. and that he wanted to enjoy my lady parts, that it’s not one or the other but ALL of it (meaning everything about both genders). So I do believe in bisexuality and the ebb and flow of it but am also curious if bisexuality can completely morph one way or another over time.

You asked me to be blunt so buckle up! I reckon you're a conclusion (my husband is bisexual) looking for clues. Here are some of the things you wrote in your "Can't sleep thread" that I found alarming, namely: 

- When the counselor asked him what his ideal situation would be, he responded that he would be married to me but have an “intimate side relationship”. When she asked if he would be ok with us both being open, he responded “well I realize if I had side relationships then she should be able to as well”. When I asked if he would be ok with that he said no.

Fact: your husband wants an open marriage which for him means married to you (a woman) while dating/sleeping with a man. What makes no sense is that he wants to openly cheat on you while you remain 100% monogamous. That's some straight-up bullsh*t. 

- I guess I’m treading lightly but I do plan to share these feelings in counseling. He gets this attitude when he shares things and then I want to discuss them further and says “see this is why I can’t share stuff with you”. I asked him why me wanting to discuss things further is an issue? Like why does he feel he needs the counselor to come to his truth? I think he’s afraid of saying something that will make me upset but what he needs to understand is I’m going to get upset! And that’s normal. Just cause it’s hard or uncomfortable doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be talked about. It’s not like I’m yelling, I’m just asking very blunt and pointed questions, trying to get to the truth. He’s definitely one of those people who likes to try and turn the tables so he feels less guilty.

Fact: This is the definition of narcissism and/or an abusive relationship. Why the f*ck should you tread lightly? He's the *sshole who just talked about f*cking other men while still married to you and you have to pussyfoot around him? Madness. Let's look at this another way: imagine he just punched you in the face, but now won't talk about it, then turns the tables on you, and now you feel like you have to placate him. Words like "I want to cheat on you with men" are the emotional equivalent of a face punch. Where is the godd*mned apology? Pardon my French but your husband is an emotionally abusive *sshole. 

- He was asked his ideal situation and that was his initial response but he asked me not to over analyze it because we hadn’t discussed it further in counseling. I was trying to pull out of him if he really wanted an open marriage and he said he didn’t think so. He said he hadn’t taken the time to really look at what he wants (I think it’s obvious too, he’s just taking a very slow path to admitting it to himself and me fully). He cried when she asked what he would do if it was determined that he couldn’t fully satisfy me in our marriage and we went our separate ways and told her “I don’t want that”.  Yet he enjoys this idea of having a side relationship which is the biggest smack in the face to me. It’s as though my heart and soul can see these huge red flags but his doesn’t. Or it doesn’t hurt him as much. 

Fact: Your husband is a gay-in-denial narcissist (GIDN) so please explore this with your counsellor (not in couples counselling) or read up on it on your own. I recommend the book "Co-Dependent No More." He's following the standard GIDN playbook: emotional abuse ("I'm going to cheat on you but you can't"); zero empathy (where is the kindness/apology?); gaslighting ("you're over-anlaysing me wanting to f*ck men while married to you"); and you feeling the need to fix/heal him. You referred to this as the biggest smack in the face whereas I'd call it a face punch my friend. I believe your husband is a very toxic person. 

- Don’t string me along on this torturous roller coaster of your own confusion. He knows I’ll never accept him having side flings...unless he thinks the counselor will help us come to some compromise?

Fact: 100% agree! During the honeymoon phase, the closeted husband is trying to determine how little he has to do to keep his wife locked in the marriage. He's often testing his wife while at the same time trying to recruit/manipulate the marriage counsellor. Please be ready for the "well our marriage counsellor says that I need to determine whether I'm gay..." which really means "while I hid it before, I'm now going to openly start f*cking men." If he's doing one-on-one counselling with the same person, he'll likely use those sessions to manipulate the therapist so that he/she starts taking his side during your joint counselling sessions. 

- ​We recently tried bringing his “fantasies” into the bedroom and it worked really well. He was very much into me after only 3 minutes of porn.

Fact: It sounds like you're doing all of the heavy lifting to fix your marriage, which is yet another sign of an abusive relationship. The statement "he was very much into me after only 3 minutes of (gay?) porn" was like a dagger through my heart. You so deserve the whole baguette my friend, not the crumbs he's feeding you. I'm going to assume he watched gay porn before you had sex, the sex wasn't very satisfying, and/or he couldn't "perform" but please feel free to correct me. 

Look I don't want to burst your bubble nor add to your stress my friend. But I do want to validate your feelings that "I want to f*ck men while married to you" is so cruel that it makes my teeth hurt. Post-discovery of the husband's homosexuality, gay or straight we've all followed the same script: counselling; a short-term honeymoon phase; and renewed attempts at intimacy. Love is about how people make us feel, not what we do to make them happy. Finally, I want to leave you with three thoughts which I'm sure you've heard in your exchanges with other straight spouses. First, your feelings are 100% valid and I reckon you should lean in to your anger. Moreover, your husband's complete inability to appreciate that saying "I want to f*ck men while married to you" was painful is a huge red flag (narcissism?). A loving and sane husband: acknowledges your feelings; apologizes for hurting you; and works like hell to change his behaviour. Second, ask yourself: what the hell is my husband doing to save our relationship? From what you've shared, it sounds like you made the counselling appointment, you're trying to talk about all of this, you're getting creative in the bedroom. What exactly is he doing other than denying your feelings, gaslighting you, and acting like some petulant teenager? Third, please continue to focus on facts, perhaps by journaling, rather than his spin on things. Your husband has now confirmed that he wants to remain married to you while f*cking men on the side. When two men have sex, a man watches gay porn, and a man enjoys things like anal play in the bedroom, that spells "gay" to me. 

I hope that helps in some way my friend. Please post again if you disagree with my opinions. Remember that you matter and your feelings matter! Good luck. 

Last edited by Sean (February 9, 2021 2:37 am)

Thank you for providing more detail Epiphany. Please excuse my long reply (below) but I'm rather obsessed with your relationship. The reason I so often challenge straight wives is in an attempt to shock them out of a broken way of thinking. Or perhaps to help them think for themselves, rather than simply parrot what their toxic husbands are saying. Changing the way we think is a lot like when you start running or exercising. When you first start running, it's PURE HELL and you feel like you're going to die. But with persistence and commitment, it eventually gets easier. Given what you've shared, I think you've made a good start in a very bad situation. If I'm reading this correctly, you have two different therapists for individual counselling and a separate marriage counsellor. I think that's an excellent idea because you now have someone 100% focused on just you rather than "the gay thing."     

What I'm going to challenge you to do in the coming months is: 1. Focus on actions/facts rather than words/empty promises; 2. Focus on how you feel in your relationship and if this is what you truly want for the next 20-30 years; and 3. Focus on your husband's communication patterns rather than what he's saying (which I still maintain is pure horsesh*t). I'd also urge you to discuss all of this with a qualified therapist. Having been a manipulative monster of a gay husband, I know all the tricks, evasions, and manipulations. And I see your husband doing exactly the same things I did. And that is: deny; distract; deflect blame; and delay. Let's look at the very simple issue of getting tested for STIs. Here is how that conversation should have gone in a normal, healthy relationship: 

Wife: We haven't had sex in years, I suspect you cheated on me (perhaps with men), and before we have sex again I want you to get tested for STIs. 
Husband: No problem. Would you like to get tested together or separately? Again I'm sorry I hurt you. 
Wife: Together. Are you free next Thursday? 
Husband: Yes. 

Let's move on to the alternate reality called gay/straight marriage. Here is your husband's response to your totally reasonable request: "I want you to get tested for STIs." The pattern we're looking for is: deny; distract; deflect blame; defensiveness; and finally delay.

Sean: Have you and your husband been tested for STIs? 

Straight Spouse: Now in regards to the past 3 years, STDS, testing and us having sex. I did tell him that I want him to get tested...

Gay Husband:

1. Deny: He said he would but didn’t think it was necessary and promised me the last time he did anything was oral with a man at 28. He said anything would have already showed up and affected us. He was very honest in that he came very close to meeting up with guys but would always change his mind then “ghost” them.

Facts: Your husband still hasn't gotten tested, indirectly denied that he's been having sex with men now ("it was years ago"), and now wants bonus points for "ghosting" guys he secretly contacted online. He doesn't deserve praise for "almost" f*cking men my friend. 

2. Distract: In 2017 he started having ED issues...

Facts: What the f*ck does ED have to do with getting tested for STIs? ZERO! It's pure distraction which then leads to...

3. Deflect Blame (or Blame Shift):  We were not getting along and he’s recently revealed to me that there was an argument we got in after a failed attempt where I chose my family over him and said to him “you’re the only one being a baby in this situation”...which he took as a reference to our issue in the bedroom the few days prior. He admitted wanting to initiate sex but being afraid he couldn’t perform. This was leading up to the months BEFORE he started looking to his male fantasies again. We grew distant intimately and yes, I do see us not having sex that whole time and him feeding his desires for men as a HUGE red flag. I also understand that he obviously was still sexually stimulating himself but he is adamant that the ED issues still persist despite all that.

Facts: We'll clearly this is your fault...bullsh*t! So we've moved from: I want you to get tested for STIs; to "I don't need to get tested"; to "I have ED"; and now "I have ED because of you"; to "I'm (husband) the real victim here." You're also using a lot of "we" sentences here when you are completely blameless. His ED isn't your fault and has absolutely nothing to do with getting tested for STIs. You don't stop having sex with your wife because you had an argument. Hell you were intimate with your husband after finding out he wanted an open marriage. He's shifting the blame on you and it's bullsh*t. 

4. Defensiveness (or Gaslighting): On Amazon he has a history of testosterone boosting products coinciding with this all and has mentioned several times in the past 5 years that he is worried his testosterone levels are dropping. Now, your concerns about my safety are appreciated but rest assured I did not allow actual intercourse. There was oral which I know can transmit certain things still but otherwise our intimate experience (which lasted over 2 hours, I got tired and stopped but he kept at me for awhile) was handled in a safer way, in that actual penetration did not happen. He believes that if we continue down this path of shared fantasies, seeing as it was very successful, that our intimacy will return and he WANTS to do it...once again, I understand time and actions will tell and rest assured I’ll be watching his actions per your advice and others (and common sense). If I see him fading, not engaged or distant, I’ll assume this exploration of our intimacy is not working.

Facts: Blah blah blah. Look I'm no doctor but I reckon when you have erectile dysfunction, you get a prescription for Viagra or Cialis....not testosterone. Question: why aren't you two discussing ED medication? This sounds like more distraction/defensiveness to me my friend. What I'm hearing is: "I have a heart condition so I started ordering nasal spray on Amazon." The two things don't make sense of course but such is the logic of a gay husband. Let's not forget that you (his wife) are the real victim here. By "defensivness" I mean a dizzying display of facts, whether real or fabricated, that reinforces his bullsh*t claims. Notice how he's referring only to ED, not cheating, because he senses you feel like his ED is somehow your fault. (Again: false.) And now we've moved from ED to...testosterone. What? This is also referred to as gaslighting...meaning black is white, up is down, ED means testosterone (not Viagra), and his ED/testosterone issues somehow explains why doesn't need to get tested for STIs. It's complete word salad and serves only to keep you spinning. 

5. Delay: He’s actually going to the Dr March 2nd to discuss it, have a physical and if I still request it, get tested for STD’s.​

Fact: "Discuss it" doesn't mean get tested and now it's apparently your responsibility to insist on the test. What!? That's bullsh*t. Your husband is already trying to weasel his way out of the STI test. If you really want the truth, call the doctor, tell him you are both going to get tested for STIs, discuss ED medication for your husband, and then go with him to the appointment, tell the doctor everything, and demand to see his STI test results. Or just make an appointment for both of you at the free clinic, and get tested together. If you leave this up to your husband, he's never going to get tested, he'll just fake his test results, or he'll ask for a COVID test and say something like, "That stupid doctor! He tested me for the wrong thing. Arrgggh!" 

Let's review the facts here: 

1. Your husband refuses to get tested for STIs. 
2. Your husband has been messaging men for sexual encounters. 
3. You and your husband haven't had "penis-in-vagina" (PIV) sex since 2017 because you made him feel bad three years ago (please confirm if my dates are correct.)
4. Rather than discuss ED medications such as Viagra, he's strangely focused on his testosterone levels while also blaming you for his lack of interest in PIV sex.  

To me, these facts strongly suggest the following (my opinions of course): 

1. Your husband refuses to get tested for STIs because he's cheating on you and fears his test results. 
2. Your husband has been messaging men for sexual encounters and is cheating on you. 
3. You and your husband haven't had "penis-in-vagina" sex since 2017 because he is probably gay. 
4. Rather than discuss ED medications such as Viagra, he's strangely focused on his testosterone levels and libido while strangely blaming you for his lack of interest in "penis-in-vagina" (PIV) sex. He's distracting you from the real issue: he refuses to have PIV sex with you or simply cannot. Testosterone is for libido and building muscle and has nothing to do with ED. If your husband suddenly started exercising, taking testosterone, focusing on his appearance, and all of this started around the time you two stopped having PIV sex, for me this confirms that's when he started cheating on you.  

My advice: stand your ground on the STI test because, as a mother, your health is the biggest concern here. I reckon this is a very clear test of whether your husband can be honest with you going forward. If he refuses the test, won't let you see the results, "accidentally" takes the wrong test, or continues delaying, he's clearly cheating on you and lying about it. The test issue is a very simple way for you to: re-establish honesty; set your boundaries; confirm whether your husband is cheating/gay; and (most importantly) to find out if you have any STIs. PLEASE STAND YOUR GROUND ON THIS ISSUE MY FRIEND because there is just too much at stake! Tell him he has two choices: 1. Get tested in the next 5-7 days; or 2. Find a new place to live. Then pay attention to the pattern of his response. If he falls back on: deny; distract; deflect blame; defensiveness; and finally delay; I'd explore narcissist/co-dependent relationships with your therapist. End of rant!

Please feel free to post/comment again. 

Last edited by Sean (February 9, 2021 1:02 pm)

Thanks for writing Epiphany. In reply: 

1. Hi again. My husband did recently start taking a stronger interest in his body over the past year, on and off with an increase towards the end of November/December which coincides with the timing of him seriously contemplating meeting up in real life with men he met via Facebook.

Ok. Most gay men hook up using phone apps like Grindr, Hornet, or Scruff. They're like Tinder, but for sex. The telltale sign a husband is on these apps would be a lot of naked or nearly-naked selfies. 

2. Which reminds me of another question I had. He says that he would find these guys based on their reactions to underwear ads...message them and eventually they would move to Snapchat. He said he was invited to private Facebook pages where they would basically share fantasies. Do you know of these groups? Manscape is something that pops up on his feed and one night I discovered there was a secret group called Manscape ballers. I tried to join but haven’t been accepted, just curious if this is one of those groups.

No I don't know of these FB groups. 

3. I now have full access to his phone and can see he is no longer apart of any of these groups or friends with any of these guys on any social media platform.

Ok. Please keep your eye out for a second, secret phone. 

4. I still firmly believe that my husband has truly been bisexual based on our history but yes, trying to figure out if he’s now gone too far down that path and will not be able to come back. I understand your approach to honesty and it helps keep my eyes open but after being together for 21 years, this process deserves time. I’m already in the grieving process of what  we had. I literally go through just about every step, every day...anger, denial, bargaining, acceptance, depression and whatever else...shock and mania happen with each new hurtful truth.

That's fair.

5. Also, I really haven’t pushed for the STD tests like everyone suggests. I will revisit that idea again but since I haven’t pushed it’s unfair to say he is refusing. I do believe he would get one if I asked. We haven’t found a free clinic so it’s going to cost over $100 and I think we both don’t love that idea.

There seem to be a lot of barriers to the STD test which leads me to conclude that there is something else at play. I'm going to stop pushing this because clearly neither of you are quite ready for this step...nor dealing with the potential consequences. I suggest we revisit this topic and others in 60 days. 

6. Yes, no penis to vagina since 2017 but he did want to the night we experimented.

Tragic. You deserve so much better. 

7. Also, he is not blaming me for his ED...

I disagree but again let's revisit this in a few months. 

8. ...but stating that he was insecure to try with me because of it. It could be a cover or it could be truth, most likely a bit of both.

I vote "cover." I see we're still not talking about ED medication which is a huge red flag. 

9. Many of your points are very insightful. I do think it’s hard to understand our relationship because I do feel it is slightly different than your own experience. However there are many similarities as well. I do think we will learn more via counseling. I do not believe he will hide things as much but it just may take more time for him, and us both to face certain truths.

100% agree. 

10. We do have a deep love for each other. Yes he’s hurt me and has apologized several times but I get what you are saying about the difference between a straight relationship and MOM.

We've all tried MOMs so no judgement here. 

11. A straight relationship it would be much easier for him to tell me the things I wish he could...like that I’m enough, his everything, he wants only me etc...he’s being honest that he needs to figure himself out though. I’m bracing for bad news but cannot completely shut myself to him if we are still trying to work this out.

Understood. 

12. It’s a delicate balance and yes, it’s torture. I’m looking forward to the day I have more answers, whatever they be.

Good luck and please check in again whenever you like! Take care.