LoneWolf wrote:

Bi would've given me hope. I think I have bi tendencies. But gay is a hard starting point in a hetero marriage.

Gay/lesbian in a MOM is probably more complicated than bi. It's an extra challenge to both.
Either way, the character of the persons involved and the life choices they make is by far the most important factor. That's also what I read in the sories of the bi-straight MOMs.
But this goes even in straight marriages as well. My (lesbian) wife has four straight siblings, all four of them divorced, some are in their third marriage.
Our MOM is the only marriage among them that succeeded...

You'll undoubtately understand it's not a ride down hill. Both have to consider well how to do it, going about it using all their emotional intelligence and rational capacity. Getting help from the outside is a good idea because it's likely you'll experience some lack in these 'talents' (individualy or as a couple). This also needs time. Getting help to develop is a sensible thing to do (seek out a good therapist that aligns with your goals and knows what he/she is doing).
Even when you don't succeed, it's worthwhile as personal growth. But I realy think if both go on this path, being honest, open and determined to achieve your goal, there's a good chance.
But making mistakes, going through troubles, experience emotional ups and downs, that I can certainly guarantee. That's in front of you and it'll take time and determination. 
For us it was one year through 'the valley of death', and one year climbing out. After that years of gradual rise with episodes of stallment before the final turn in the road, and we reached the the promised land. Now we're sitting on the beach sipping tequila (well, not all the time...). But it's as good and strong love relation like people can have. For us it brings everything we wanted, but with an exceptional solid foundation beneath it. Maybe I could compare it with a filter: the negative struggles and problems diminished, while we kept on to the positive we learned along the way.
This didn't stop even until the present. When an ugly stone happen to show up in the sieve, we remove it and the next batch will be the more clearer. 

Until I said offhand something about being in love, and he matter of factly said he wasn't in love with me any more. Which makes me wonder what it means to be "in love." He's hard pressed to define it because he's got so many unknown and novel sensations. He's a child again, in a lot of ways. But does in love mean the focus of desire?

I recognize this sort of "event" shortly after my wife came-out, and it felt terrible to me. For my wife it was she'd realized she didn't fall in love with me realy, ie. not to be compared to the emotions she felt for the woman she had fallen in love with at that time. I remember asking my wife if she could potentially fall in love with me then. 
She said lightheartedly "maybe that could happen" (?). She didn't meant it in a mean way, she was oblivious to the impact it had on me. For me it was like the past 20 years were different than I thought it was, Something essential had been missing. I assumed it was there, but it wasn't. How could that be???
Still she did love me. I felt very desparate what to think.
What is this "love" and "falling in love", how to interpret it, and which is more important? Can the one exist without the other? I never asked myself that kinds of questions before, for me it was all so simple and selfevident when I considered my own feelings. 

Her desire was directed towards women, but her will was directed towards me and consequently our marriage. She loved me, but it was not stemming from desire. 
Well, that's quite puzzling to comprehend. Because my own love and desire pointed to one and the same, no difference in desire and will. 
And what do I do with being loved, but not being desired? That's not what I want, but... I love her. 
For me there was a comparable dillema as my wife had. Not being desired made me feel bad, but still my love was directed towards her and consequently our marriage.

Like you, this awareness of consequences emerged not directly after her coming-out, but during some time later (a couple of weeks or so?). Which was actually helpful because it spreaded the shock.
It's complicated to sort out these things you find yourself confronted with. 

Love (which is supported from the will) and "desire" (the emotional/feeling part) are both necessary ultimately. I think the extra complexity of a MOM with a gay/lesbian is this "desire" part can be missing. While in bi MOM, this aspect still is an integral part.
Ultimatly the "desire" aspect should be(come) part of a MOM with a gay/lesbian also. Only then it has become the complete relation that it should be.
The love supported from the will is in any case necessary as a base, without that no relation can exist for a long(er) time.

So, we're not giving up. Even if we're in the group that has about 2-3 years before splitting, those 2 years will allow us to grow. Yes, and hurt. But also learn new ways to love.

I think the outcome depends how you spend these 2-3 years. Open and honest talking, acceptance that goes both ways (very important!), trying to cope with feelings and intimacy in a constructive way, keeping within boundaries of marriage and using common sense, you'll get a long way. (it's very simple to make stupid decisions/actions that blows it all in no time)
It has to survive the initial turmoil to work things out, but the real purpose is to get to a realy-realy good relation. Better than it was before. Set your goals high, but accept it will take effort and time to get there.

(btw. Recognition theory is unknown to me)

Last edited by Dutchman (January 7, 2021 9:53 pm)

Thanks, Stronger and Dutchman. Every day feels like a month or so and brings a new set of feelings.  Yesterday he got mad at something I did. For the first time in forever. I feel like it took on new magnitude (not consciously) because he wants me to be "at fault," too. I'm still sort of shellshocked. It felt like another abandonment.

Are either of your spouses out in the rest of their lives? My husband really strongly wants to be out in every aspect of his life and I'm not in the way of that (at least not intentionally). Just wondering if that's a factor and how it works in your situations. I need a model that allows for open expression of both identities...

Also, I'm struggling to make use of my therapist. How did you know yours was a good one? What sort of support have you found most helpful?

Stronger - I hope you find the pain becoming more manageable and I'm glad you have a good friend to listen. I'd been so tied to my partner as my best friend and only outlet that reconnecting with old friends and discovering their love and support is what most sustains me. Other than the absolutely amazing kids I have.

LoneWolf wrote:

Are either of your spouses out in the rest of their lives? My husband really strongly wants to be out in every aspect of his life and I'm not in the way of that (at least not intentionally). Just wondering if that's a factor and how it works in your situations. I need a model that allows for open expression of both identities...

In a MOM the straight spouse is also "out". So it actualy concerns both, and both have to agree how to go about it. Certainly when it's towards people both spouses know or could meet.
Some people have prejudice concerning MOM's, having critizism and/or rejecting one or both spouses. That can be stressful or at least make you feel uneasy. Sometimes even more with people that like to be called "liberal". 

The first couple of years we were very much struggling and finding our way through it together. Only close friends and family knew about our situation. I don't think it would have been helpful to extend that to many others, it's problematic and painful enough and you have to focus on your private situation. But a certain (limited) number of friends one can talk with freely is actually important.

At some point we also told our children (they were teenagers and about old enough to understand, and we adjusted what we told to their level of understanding). But we thought it was necessary they knew a bit what was going on between their parents. 

Only when we worked things through, and we were confident about our choices and way forward together, we told a broader group of people (like in church for example). 

So being out to others was in line with how the stability of our relation developed. At first mostly on a need to know basis, later it was more about feeling free and wanting to express that.

Also, I'm struggling to make use of my therapist. How did you know yours was a good one? What sort of support have you found most helpful?

Couples therapy helped us a lot in general. Most importantly it helped learn to talk openly, not only during the sessions itself but also the talks we had together afterwards. 

My wife had individually help with her sexuality. I suppose it's harder to find the right therapist on that matter.
It shouldn't be rejecting SSA, or like "conversion therapy". So it must have a positive stance to self acceptance.
But not like: "go out explore and live out your sexuality!". (or go for open relations, threesomes). It's quite obvious that would kill any marriage (ie. if you want to go for a monogamous relation).
We found a therapist that was accepting but also to integrate SSA into marriage. Not considering SSA as the all defining aspect of a person, but as one part (among other parts) that makes us who we are. That took the sting out the crisis and made it much more manageable. It became a foundation on which we could build further.
After all, therapy can just help you to point in a right direction, the real work has to be done by yourself (ie. both spouses).

Stronger wrote:

But how did you and your wife finally get on the same page with each other?

By acceptance that goes both ways. So I accepted my wife is lesbian AND she accepted I'm a straight man.
We're in a (monogamous) marriage so as consequence we kept intimacy going. My wife accepted I need that aspect in the relation.
If we had done this differently (sexless), it would burden me more and more. Blaming her sexual orientation for it and blocking acceptance from my side.
It also kept it the special relation aspect you only share with your spouse. Preventing it would slide into feeling just like roommates.
If only the straight spouse is expected to be accepting, it's not fair and out of balance. I think this eventually makes it impossible for the straight spouse to keep accepting, and rejection takes its place. Of course it's not about demanding and/or forcing. We both consciously and freely chose this as we both wanted to find a way towards each other. We didn't set our expectations high, and just tried to make the best of it.

We talked much, and we got better with that over time. It wasn't easy at first, my wife could put up a wall and I felt like holding a monologue. Not understanding each other, unwittingly saying something that hurt the other, she felt unsure what she could tell. Couples therapy helped us further. Talking and being open has a strong connection with acceptance (feeling secure to talk).
Honest and open talks also restored trust. Learning how my wife felt and thought, also set my mind at ease she wouldn't some day suddenly leave me for a woman.

What I write above was not the solution itself, but it set the base conditions that allowed us to go forward. 

When I later overcame feeling not being really desired as a man (this was an implicit feeling in our sexual relation that bothered me the most) things started to change.
It removed the vulnerabilty the situation had to me. As a result acceptance went to a higher level, our talking became even more open, we felt like a team and close to each other.
I'd say we then started to become "on the same page". This was one of the factors that caused my wife to allow me into the center of her feelings. Her focus was on my importance to her, and not on her sexual orientation that before had had her focus around which things were arranged.
It totally changed our sexual relation now her feelings were in it. She really enjoyed it and enjoyed me. Obviously this made it very different for me too.

So we first created a sustainable situation. Not perfect, but with healthy ingredients like acceptance and communication. Learning, letting it develop. 
Feeling secure, and trusting each other. We grew towards each other, became a close team, understanding, caring, connected.
Then all is put in place, it only needs a spark to ignite. A final putting two and two together.
Feelings come into existence as an unavoidable result.