Thanks for following up TTSP. 100% agree that my first reply was b*tchy and condescending. I apologize if I hurt your feelings so just say the word my friend and I'll happily delete it. Your call! For those who haven't read our previous exchanges, your husband of 15+ years came out to you last year...in what sounds like a kind of wishy-washy way. You also mentioned that your husband was seeing a gay therapist and was also in contact with a formerly closeted gay husband/father, who is now out and has a gay son. In response to your follow-up question:

 1. Why would a gay man ask a newly out man "how do you know you're gay?" 

I have no idea! I'm happy to share my own personal experience which may or may not apply to your husband's situation. As a closeted gay man who married a woman and had children, no one challenged me when I told them I was gay and planned to divorce. I reckon their logic was simple: why would I come out and break up my family unless I was 100% sure that I was gay? Similarly, none of my gay friends were challenged when they came out. If your husband is truly getting push back after coming out, it might be because he's hesitating to separate, divorce, and be single again.  

2. You mentioned that your husband's gay therapist asked him the following questions: "How do you know you're gay?" "Wanting to have sex with a man doesn't necessarily make someone gay." "Of course you don't know if you're straight or gay because you don't have that experience to compare it to..." "I've had clients get out there and decide it's not what they want or thought it would be..." "You might be hyping this fantasy up in your head, only to get out there and be let down."

I'm not a mental health professional so I can't really explain why your husband's therapist is challenging him. I reckon it's the role of a qualified therapist to challenge a patient, often in an attempt to shock him/her out of their current (broken) way of thinking. Think of it as an emotional form of shock therapy.  

The point I was trying to make in my previous post was this: I believe there are two possibilities here - 

Option 1: Your husband is genuinely being challenged about his sexuality by two gay men (a qualified gay therapist and this gay father of a gay son). 
Option 2: Your husband is feeding you and his therapist false information in an attempt to get permission to openly have sex with men while still married as a kind of "trial run." 

I'm inclined to think it's option 2 (lying) my friend. I love that Judge Judy line that goes something like, "You know when a teenager is lying? When their mouth is moving." Gay-in-denial or semi-closeted husbands aren't bad people per se.  It's just that we are fundamentally incapable of honesty when it comes to talking about our sexuality. If I'm playing devil's advocate, I'd say that your husband is quoting a lot of unverified sources. And rather conveniently, these "sources" reinforce this bizarre narrative that you should let him have sex with men while married to you to prove that he's really gay. Although I haven't read all of your posts, I can only assume that you rightly said "NO!" when your husband asked for permission to cheat while still married to you. 

One risky yet brilliant tactic used by some straight spouses to cut through all the bullsh*t is this: the straight spouse pretends that she is ok with an open marriage. Once given this fake green light, it normally takes her husband less than a week to set up his first sex date. This accomplishes two goals: first, it ends all of the hand-wringing about "Is my husband really gay?"; and second, the speed with which the gay husband sets up his first tryst confirms that this clearly ain't his first rodeo. 

Again my apologies TTSP if I offended you with my last post. Please feel free to post again if you disagree with me or would like me to take down my original reply. We're all friends here. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean (January 9, 2021 4:03 am)

Thank you for replying TTSP and again my apologies for jumping to conclusions. I thought your husband's therapist was gay because of this sentence you wrote: 

I'm talking about...the therapist.  Another gay man. 

In response to your last post: 

1. Hi Sean, My feelings weren't hurt, but I will admit to being irritated at the tone of your first post.  Thanks for the apologies, but certainly no need to take the post down. We're all adults here. 

I appreciate that. This is the second time I've been called out for jumping to conclusions so I'll try to be more mindful in future posts. The last thing I want to do is add to a straight spouse's pain. 

2. Thank you for answering the original question.  It's always interesting to get different perspectives.  

My pleasure. 

3. For clarification, my husband's therapist is straight.  If I gave the impression otherwise, it was not intentional.  

No worries. 

4. I have actually heard some of these comments "from the source" as I went to a few sessions with his therapist, and I've seen his personal notes and original treatment plan.  I am an observer, so I can usually read a room very well, and my husband has no poker face . . . I didn't get the vibe that my husband was cherry-picking or hyper-focusing on specific comments to twist to his plea for an open marriage.  I really think the therapist told him those things, and I know I heard some of those things myself. So no, it's not all "unverified" sources.  

Understood. I have a question: how has your husband been expressing his attraction to men? You mentioned that he hasn't cheated, so have you caught him using gay porn or perhaps contacting other men online? 

5. Like you, I felt at the time that the therapist was just trying to challenge him.  I didn't think too much of it.  Now that I think about it though, my therapist also asked me how my husband "came to the conclusion" that he was gay in our first session. So maybe it's a common question for therapists to pose?  I don't know, and it doesn't really matter.  He's clearly not straight, and that is all that matters. 

I have two follow up questions: 

- Are these faith-based therapists? 
- How do you know your husband is "not straight"? 

6. You imply that my husband is using these comments to play some "these gay men don't believe I'm gay and I need to prove it by sleeping with men first..." mind game with me, and that's not what happened.  I was actually the one who first brought up that the gay guy asked him similar questions as the therapist.  Did he have a moment of saying  "That's why I'm confused..." in a future conversation with me?  Yes, but he didn't fixate on it or continue to come back to it.  He did try to make a joke about a free-pass, and I told him I'd put a coupon in that cute little couples sex book he gave me for Christmas three months before he dropped his bomb in our marriage bed.  He shut up.  

Damn. Well played. 

7. But on the flip side, he told me so many other things these gay men told him -- like do not date right away.  Get through the divorce, and then start your new life. Like you said, he's not a bad guy per se.  I don't think he's consciously trying to set me up and force me into an open marriage.  I know he's struggling, but I think he is finally recognizing my struggle in this too.   I honestly think, considering the horror stories I've read on this forum, he's handled this situation far better than many of the gay/lesbian spouses. 

Based on my time here, most straight wives still feel the need to defend their closeted husbands...even when their husbands have lied and cheated. So I apologize for lumping you in with the "Stockholm Syndrome Straights" so to speak. My question is: what exactly does your husband want now: divorce or an open marriage?  

8. I think you've painted a pretty dark picture of him based on your own personal experiences, and I say that as someone who doesn't even like him most days right now.  Yes, he has made a lot of mistakes, and yes, I've caught him in lies, but I think your narrative of this particular situation is wrong.  

100% agree! 

9. Anyway, I wasn't asking because it's been an issue in our house or some ongoing discussion.  I just happened to see something else on the forum that reminded me of those conversations, and I thought I'd ask.  It was curiosity, more than something I'm struggling with.  Thanks for your time. 

Thank YOU for so calmly and graciously responding. Be well! 

Hi Sean. I’m currently in a 19 year marriage with my high school best friend, turned boyfriend and now husband. I’m looking for your opinion on what he’s going through. I knew he was bisexual in highschool. We were in Show Choir together and he had about a 6 month relationship (secret to everyone else) with another male friend of ours. He also dated a plethora of girls and was sexual with both genders. Our relationship has been very passionate at times, then dry others. Long story short, I think what I’m discovering is that his desires have changed back and forth between genders over the years. The times he’s desired men, he’s looked outside the marriage though and that’s where our issues lie. He is hurting that he’s hurt me and we’ve made it clear that we love eachother. The past few years, we’ve had no sex. I recently discovered that he’s been messaging other men via Facebook messenger and sharing sexual pictures. I asked him if his desires have changed over the years and if he desires men more right now. He said yes. I asked if he is still attracted to women and he said yes. So I know he’s confused, doesn’t want to hurt me and that we both need counseling but I figured why not seek your opinion being someone that’s been in his similar shoes before. Questions I have...

1.) I know you are gay rather than bisexual, but do you know or have you heard, of any other men who have slowly leaned more towards identifying as gay rather than bisexual as they age? I’m wondering if it has anything to do with a decrease in testosterone levels. I only mention that because my husband has mentioned concerns over it.
2.) what communication strategies are best to get him to open up? Counseling? Are there specific questions I could ask and a way to present them that might help him discover his truth and share it honestly with me?
3.) in your experience, how did you move forward successfully in your divorce. How did you deal with the challenge of telling friends, family and kids? What are your tips to me if I need to handle divorce so that we can get through this in an amicable and loving manner. (We aren’t there yet, and may make this work still, I just need to prepare)

Thank you for your insight!!

Epiphany

Hi Sean. Not gonna lie, your post did put me into a slight panic. I can feel the adrenaline and emotions bubbling up and could now use a drink. I do appreciate bluntness though. I guess the only thing I’d clear up is that I’m not asking him to stay if he knows he’s gay. I already suspect more has happened than I’m aware of. He’s the one not being forthcoming and trying to keep me believing this will work. I don’t think he’s prepared to accept his truth. I think I’ve been accepting it longer than he has. Your advice of 6 months is good. I will take the time to go to counseling with and without him, have him go alone and will also start preparing for possible separation/divorce. I do believe people can be bisexual though and I can guarantee he’s been very attracted to women...me and others. While everything you’ve said could be point on, I do have to remind myself that everyone and every relationship is different. Right now I can’t see getting back to intimacy with him. That’s a huge issue for me. I am young. I do need intimacy and while I’ve been monogamous because of my annoyingly huge moral compass...I do have attractions to other men. Our love and family might need a little longer than 6 months...maybe it won’t. Either way, I really do appreciate your insight!

Thank you,
Epiphany

Hi Sean, my responses to your statements/questions in blue.    

Thank you for replying TTSP and again my apologies for jumping to conclusions. I thought your husband's therapist was gay because of this sentence you wrote:  I'm talking about...the therapist.  Another gay man.  
I figured after re-reading that might have been the source of the misunderstanding.  I should have worded it differently.  

I have a question: how has your husband been expressing his attraction to men? You mentioned that he hasn't cheated, so have you caught him using gay porn or perhaps contacting other men online?

Yes and no.  I didn't "catch" him, because I wasn't initially looking, I didn't have a reason.  It started with the "voluntary" disclosure, and he told me a lot of things up front, or reluctantly answered my questions when he asked. He admitted to porn when I asked.  I don't think I was surprised at that point, because I know a lot of men unfortunately struggle with it in general, and you know, by then I was already reeling from the whole "my entire adult life has been a lie" news. He admitted that it started with straight, and then mostly bi and gay porn, and didn't make excuses.  He did tell me later that after our conversation he stopped watching it, and the more time that went by, the better he felt--some weird conversation about how that "burning desire" to sleep with a man had significantly lessened as time went on.  I don't know.  His therapist compared it to how teens love to masturbate, but as they get older they realize they're still alone when all is said and done, or something along those lines.  

Of course, after his disclosure I was periodically obsessed with digging and snooping. He's never been good at hiding paper trails in general, he uses the same email address and password variation for everything...it's not been hard to find things related to this whole nightmare.  I've seen emails, texts/messages with friends, browsing history, what apps are on his phone.  So while I've seen things that pertain to all of this, I haven't found anything...overtly salacious.  No pictures, nothing to indicate he's setting up hookups, no searches for gay bars/clubs/bathhouses. If he's doing it, he's gotten better at hiding things, and I can't imagine when he'd have the time to do it.  But really, I rarely look anymore, because I don't need to find anything else.  I know enough, and I know how I feel about it.  

 I have two follow up questions:
- Are these faith-based therapists?
- How do you know your husband is "not straight"?  
No, neither are faith-based therapists.  

I know he's "not straight" because he's admitted as much.  He's gone back and forth implying he's bi or gay, and whether that is a legitimate identity issue or a struggle to accept and face his reality, I don't know, and I am past the point where it matters to me. I know the damage this situation has done to our marriage and to me, and I know what I want for myself.    

Based on my time here, most straight wives still feel the need to defend their closeted husbands...even when their husbands have lied and cheated. So I apologize for lumping you in with the "Stockholm Syndrome Straights" so to speak. My question is: what exactly does your husband want now: divorce or an open marriage?  
That's partially why I deleted my first really long response.  It sounded like I was defending him, and that is not my intent.  I am past the shock and denial.   

But as to your question, he does not outwardly express a desire for either.  He knows an open marriage is not on the table, and never will be.  He knows divorce is the only viable option to "explore" without actually having an affair.  I do think at one point, he even tried to use divorce as an ultimatum almost...if I couldn't give him the open marriage, he didn't see any other options was the underlying message.  But when it came down to it, he was too scared to pull the trigger.  

I guess his last declared position was that he wanted to "work on us" but I am too tired to care anymore. It's not like the love-bombing or honeymoon type thing we went through in the beginning.  It's more like...we both know there's an elephant in the room, but we actually still get along really well right now, so we just go through the motions. I guess I've taken the position that he's pretending he's trying to make this work (to himself...to me...it doesn't matter) and I'm pretending I believe him, to keep the tension down while I get my ducks in a row.  

*****  
Virion, I'm so sorry about what you're going through.  I agree that this is a complete nightmare, it's utterly soul-crushing.  I'm almost 10 month from my discovery, so I've gone through the trauma-bonding and honeymoon cycle here too, but I've not experienced a lot of the other fallout as others have discussed here.  I'm not in denial though.  I know there could be things I don't know about, and I know it could get worse.  So I cautiously remain, for various personal reasons, but I am watching our for signs of narcissist rage or anything that would prompt me to immediately remove my children from a toxic environment.  I care about myself, but they are my number one priority right now.