Thank you for posting Lorelei. Before getting started, I want to urge you to get tested for STDs/STIs and if you're still having sex with your husband, always use condoms. While I don't have a lot of background information, I reckon your husband is doing a lot more than just receiving blowjobs down at the adult video store's backroom. Your health and safety should be priorities. In response to your last post: 

1. Thank you for responding so quickly because I feel like I’m losing my mind.

I'm very sorry you're struggling my friend. I think it's normal to feel disoriented. Being married to a closeted husband is like spending years on an emotional tilt-a-whirl. Moreover, after you've confronted your husband on having sex with other men, his manipulations and spin go into overdrive. I'd urge you to contact the Straight Spouse Network to speak with a sponsor or counsellor. You should also speak to a close friend or family member who will listen rather than take sides. 

2. You confirmed everything I’ve already said. As for the open marriage I did offer that when I first found out and his response was no he didn’t want another man touching me although I could be with any women I wanted and maybe eventually he could join in.

It's not uncommon for the gay husband to encourage his wife to cheat. It's a bit like, "Well now we're both cheaters." Strange that he's encouraging you to have lesbian affairs, likely so that he can now openly have affairs with other men. But let's not sugarcoat this: your husband has likely been having sex (not just oral) with men for most of your marriage. 

3. I told him no I’m not into women as he already knows. I’m very open minded and have tried a variety of different things and that was one of them. Should I bring it up again and see what his response is this time?

Let's take a step back and focus on the most imporant person here: you. I'd recommend you start by writing out answers to these questions: 

Love for me means....
Marriage for me means....

If your answers to the above do not include: cheating/infidelity; threesomes; an open marriage; or pegging your husband; then I'd suggest you find a qualified counsellor/therapist to help you detach with love, separate, and consider divorce. 

Turning now to your husband, he doesn't just sound gay, he sounds pride-float, CraigsList, and adult video booth gay. (I'm assuming that you two no longer have sex but please feel free to correct me.) If you are willing to remain in a sexless marriage with a closeted gay man who spends most of his free time on-line trawling for sex or in the back rooms of sex shops, then that is your decision. However, I reckon you are still young enough to start over and find a straight man who will love and cherish you. 

Be well my friend! 

Last edited by Séan (December 23, 2020 4:40 am)

Happy New Year everyone. I hope that we all find the love, happiness, and peace we all deserve in 2021. Turning now to Deceivedandsad's ("DAS's") post: 

1. Sean- I love that you’re here. Thank you for all of the insight you have offered!!

That's very kind of you but please keep in mind that I'm not a mental health professional and for years lied about my true sexuality while being emotionally abusive to my long-suffering former wife. So please take my analysis/advice with a grain of "pink" salt.  

2. My husband is gay- but says he won’t be “labeled” that.

Ok well that makes no sense but I've long since given up on understanding gay-in-denial logic. Question: could you provide a bit more history about your relationship as I don't have a lot of details? 

3. He says he has never been with a man...

Lie. 

4. ...and loves me. 

I read this a lot but doubt that many would define love/friendship as: lying; cheating; sexual neglect; and emotional abuse. What always strikes me about gay/straight marriages is this: few straight wives would allow their friends to treat them so poorly without ending the friendship. However, learning that a husband is gay and has been cheating with men for years somehow qualifies these *ssholes as "best friends." Madness. 

5. But the gay porn and ONLY gay porn is really a sign to me.

Again I don't have a lot of information so if you'd like me to provide more commentary, please provide additional details about any cheating or gay porn. But I will share this thought: porn and web histories don't lie.  

6. Also- he says he has NEVER turned me down for sex. True. But I stopped initiating just to see how long it would take for him to initiate, and we go MONTHS without sex.

I was the same. Gay men aren't interested in sex with women so this is a red flag. 

7. But now that I threatened divorce, he’s all tears and sadness, saying I shouldn’t throw out everything I know of him just because he struggles with this “sin.” Am I crazy for just... not believing him, and not caring?

It sounds like you're detaching with love my friend so no I don't think you're crazy. I reckon detachment is a necessary step towards separation/divorce. But please beware because gay husbands often follow the same script. Following discovery of gay porn or cheating with men and the inevitable conflict, there is often a honeymoon period. By "honeymoon" I mean a few weeks or months during which the gay-in-denial husband (GIDH) pretends to be the ideal straight spouse. This might even include him attempting to have sex to prove that he's straight. It rarely lasts. After an initial burst of effort, he'll be right back on gay porn, CraigsList, and Grindr.  

I hope that helps my friend but please post again if you have any questions. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean (January 5, 2021 7:41 am)

Thanks for sharing. In reply: 

1. Hi Sean - If you would indulge me, I would like to give you a bit more of a back story. And yes, I know you're not a mental health professional. But I also know that you give unique insight, and for that I am grateful. 

You've been warned!

2. When I met my husband, I was an energetic college kid, and he was the same. He was a bit more shy than I was, but we fell into the same crowd and clicked very quickly. He was smart, witty, talented, and I knew of several girls who liked him. I didn't like him at first, but when I got to know him, I felt like we were very quickly becoming close. He never had a girlfriend before me....

Common red flag. 

3....but I was also coming off of relationships that seemed to only be about the physical aspect, so him being a bit "inexperienced" was no big deal - I could show him a few things, and we would learn together! (Mmmhmmm.....) We got married, and I remember being a little baffled about our wedding night. Before marriage, we had hot and heavy make-out sessions, but never went "All the way" because we were both raised in very conservative Christian homes. 

Not my experience but I've read about this before. Closeted gay men avoiding pre-marital sex by saying they want to remain "pure." 

4. But by the time it came to our wedding night, we got to our hotel, grabbed dinner, and then had very quick sex. And then, he just rolled over and went to sleep. I remember very distinctly (though he says it wasn't like that,) thinking, "Oh. Is that all he wants?" It felt mechanical, and bit lack luster... especially since I had been with men before who couldn't keep their hands off of women's bodies. I chalked it up to inexperience, and we went on to our honeymoon. Where we had sex maybe 4 times the whole week. Not even every day, let alone multiple times a day, which is what I was ready for... Whatever - he's shy, he's inexperienced - we'll get better.

This is another common red flag: the gay-in-denial husband (GIDH) not being interested in straight sex. Many new brides don't even have sex on their wedding nights. 

5. Fast forward a few years - we had a rough few first years of marriage, and our sex life was never anything awesome. I could always achieve orgasm (I'm lucky - I can get there fast, I guess = ), but it was never like he wanted to actually touch me "down there" and he never seemed to want to do much more than a little bit of foreplay, then get inside and get it done. Oh, and as far as blow jobs, when he would LET me do it (and I actually used to like giving them), he lies back, hands at his side, eyes looking at the ceiling or closed tightly... and I gave up trying to give them, because he just seems to not even like them.

This mirrors my own experience. I am a gay man with zero attraction to women so having sex with my former wife was like being forced to have sex with my sister. To write that it was uncomfortable would be a huge understatement. 

6. Around our 5th year of marriage, I found evidence of emails with men. I asked him about it, and I don't even remember what was going on, but I kinda just let it go. We had just had our first baby, and I couldn't even think clearly. 

Understood. 

7. But after the next few times of finding weird emails/random pop up adds for gay porn/a random picture of him nude on our computer that he forgot to delete, I began to be super spy-girl. Hacking phones, hacking computers, and this past September, going as far as setting up a spy cam.

Smart. Most GIDHs get caught because they leave massive electronic trails that their wives eventually discover. And why? Because it takes a lot of time and effort to hook up in the gay world, especially when you're an emotionally f*cked up and self-hating closet case. Believe me when I write that out gay men can spot a closeted husband/father a mile away. Please keep that in mind when your lying husband says, "It just happened" or (my favourite) "It was just a blowjob." The reason you found his racy photos is because that's the first thing a potential gay partner will ask for so your husband has to take a lot of them. And Mr. "It just happened" on Grindr/Scruff (gay hook up apps) had to:

- Take a lot of racy photos when his wife/kids weren't home
- Find a website (like Omegle) or app (like Grindr)
- Create a login/username
- Create a password
- Validate the profile
- Write out a profile edit and upload said racy photos (to remove his face)
- Log in to the website/app
- Search for a hook up or online friend to jerk off with
- Text "Hey" or "Hi" to roughly a dozen guys before he gets a hit
- Exchange countless messages
- For a hook up, find a potential partner who can host and is sexually compatible
- Have a lengthy exchange about top vs bottom; safe sex vs condom free; where and when
- Confirm the hook up
- On hook up day: shower; shave; perhaps douche (if he's the bottom); put on some sexy underwear and pop a viagra
- Drive to the hook up location (his house or some hotel/motel) 
- On the way pick up some condoms/lube
- Confirm you both look like your photos (90% of online profiles are fake)  
- If all things check out, you might have sex 

That's roughly 20+ different steps for the "it just happened" hook up. So no it didn't just happen nor did it happen just once. 

8. Constant gay chats, porn, video chats, sexy "fashion shows" with his special thongs (before I threw them away after an epic fight last time), and even some of my thongs/lingerie, etc. We have had 3 d-days, and last time, I told him I wouldn't stand for anymore. When this most recent time rolled around, something inside me finally broke. I will never see him as genuinely wanting me. I am not sure I will ever be able to want him again.

It sounds like you have all the proof you need: lack of interest in sex with you, video footage of him having virtual sex with other men, and now a dash of cross dressing to boot! 

9. He says it's not fair, I have hurt him in the past (which is true - revenge sex when I was hurt last time... gross, by the way, I HIGHLY DO NOT recommend it...), and we need to get it together for the kids.

Don't let this f*cker flip the script on you and even attempt to paint himself as the victim. Ok so maybe you hate f*cked him or perhaps even cheated but HE'S STILL THE PROBLEM. He's the liar. He's the cheater...yes online spanking with other men is still cheating. He's the closeted one. Get ready for the "I was molested" storyline as you move towards divorce.  

10. But I don't like living in constant stress and anger and deception and lack of trust.

Nailed it! I reckon the problem with gay/straight marriages is this: no straight wife should spend the rest of her life constantly wondering who her husband is hooking up with; constantly policing his devices; nor spending the rest of her married life being sexually rejected. When straight wives tell me they're ok with opening up their marriages or letting husbands "having (gay) needs met" I often recommend they focus on how all of this feels. I tell them to focus on the what their bodies are telling them. If you're no longer sleeping, find yourself anxious/angry/crying all the time, and are suffering from stress-induced migraines, perhaps it's time to consider separation/divorce.  

11. What's the point of that? The limbo is killing me, but I don't know what is harder - staying or leaving. Like most women, I put my career and desires on hold to build a family, our home, and our lives together. And what sucks is - he's pretty great.

No he isn't "great" my friend. And here's your proof: 

You wrote: Constant gay chats, porn, video chats, sexy "fashion shows" with his special thongs (before I threw them away after an epic fight last time), and even some of my thongs/lingerie, etc. We have had 3 d-days, and last time, I told him I wouldn't stand for anymore. When this most recent time rolled around, something inside me finally broke. I will never see him as genuinely wanting me. I am not sure I will ever be able to want him again. 

None of the above makes him a "great" husband. 

12. We make a great team, and he's a wonderful father. It's just... this. Which he claims shouldn't be a big deal.

No you're not a great team and no one gets to tell you what should and should not be a "big deal." I'd read up on co-dependency my friend because you're spending a lot of time/effort defending your cheating, closeted husband.  

13. But in doing research and looking for answers, I am very much in the middle of Trauma, and even experiencing signs of PTSD. 

I'm sorry you're suffering my friend. Please read the SSN's first aid kit, find yourself a qualified therapist, and tell another human being "My husband is gay." Right now it probably feels like you're treading water with a gay husband standing on your shoulders. 

14. Not sure how to show him I am serious, and also to show him WHY it's such a big deal. I also don't know what I feel such a burden to PROVE something to him...Anyway. That's my back story. Sorry for the novel. =)

Again I'd read up on and/or explore co-dependency with a qualified therapist. ("Co-Dependent No More" by Melody Beattie changed my life and I highly recommend the audiobook version.) As with most straight spouses, your entire narrative appears to revolve around your gay husband. Put bluntly, why should you spend any time/effort trying to convince him that his homosexuality is a deal breaker? The reality for most GIDHs is that they are quite comfortable leading two lives: pretending to be good husbands/fathers while secretly putting on lingerie cam shows for other men. What rocks the boat are straight wives like you rightfully calling bullsh*t on the whole situation. So what's my point? You get to decide if this is the life you want and you don't need his permission nor validation. Your gay husband is apparently happy to spend the rest of his life riding his insane pink merry-go-round...do you want to keep spinning or get the f*ck off? Your choice! 

I hope that doesn't sting to much my friend. Please post again if you have any questions. Be well!  

Last edited by Sean (January 5, 2021 11:58 am)

Thank you for posting ThisTooShallPass (TTSP). In response to your questions: 

1. I have a question that I haven't seen discussed so far in this thread or elsewhere.  Why are people "questioning" his "coming out" so to speak?  (In reality, he hasn't officially come out--he's told a few people, in a roundabout way, and it's not very assertive or confident.)

I've taken the liberty of reviewing your former posts and just wanted to confirm that I have my facts straight (sorry for the pun): 

- Married for 15 years
- Husband came out in year 14 (roughly 9-10 months ago)
- Conservative Christian upbringing 
- Wants to "explore" his gay sexuality and yet somehow remain friends with you (his straight wife)
- Husband has a straight twin brother

Please confirm that the above are correct. In response to your question, I tend to go with Maya Angelou when it comes to sexuality, "When people show you who they are, believe them." So if your husband has: come out of the closet; come out to others; come out to a gay therapist; and started divorce proceedings, I'm inclined to think this isn't just "a phase." Here is another example. When someone says, "I'm Catholic..." or "I'm Jewish..." NO ONE ever questions nor challenges them, and yet religion is clearly a choice. So why then is someone's sexuality always up for debate? We do not choose our sexuality, even when you have a straight twin brother. 

2. I'm not talking about the religious family/friends who think it's a sin, or the straight person who's never really known an LGBTQ person.  I'm talking about...the therapist.  Another gay man. His therapist has said things like: "How do you know you're gay?"

I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume that you've never really heard any of these people question your husband's sexuality first-hand. Correct? What I'm assuming is that you've heard your husband's version/accounts of these pesky conversations. I'm going to further assume that your husband is essentially saying, "Well none of these people believe I'm gay because I haven't had sex with men. I guess the only way to prove I'm gay is to f*ck a lot of men...right honey?" Wrong. And who's the person apparently preventing him from going on this life-affirming exploratory sex binge with men? Why it's you (his wife) of course! So you're ultimately the bad person because you're keeping him (the victim) from being his authentic (read: cheating) self. If this account is correct, you wouldn't be the first straight spouse a gay husband has attempted to manipulate into giving her husband the green light to cheat with men. With regards to whether your husband is gay, of course he is. He's gay because he came out to you, came out to his straight brother, came out to his gay therapist, hell he even chose a gay therapist because he's gay as a rainbow. So I reckon he's manufactured all of this fake "confusion" because he wants to somehow explore his sexuality while still married to you. 

3. "Wanting to have sex with a man doesn't necessarily make someone gay."

Bullsh*t. Again I'd discount anything you haven't heard first-hand. If you and the person you're having sex with both have penises, that's gay sex. If you're fapping to porn where there are only men doing penis things, then you're a gay man watching gay porn. Straight men don't come out to everyone, choose gay therapists, and ask their wives for permission to f*ck men. 

4. "Of course you don't know if you're straight or gay because you don't have that experience to compare it to..." "I've had clients get out there and decide it's not what they want or thought it would be..." "You might be hyping this fantasy up in your head, only to get out there and be let down." Now, I get that it might just be his style to question/challenge the patient to think about things differently in order to accept or admit what he's dealing with.  So I didn't think too much about it at first, although it was kind of irritating because it kind of fueled my husband's argument that he had before therapy that "What if I get out there and it's not what I expected, and it's too late because I've already lost you and the kids." 

I'm not a therapist nor a mental health professional so I won't delve into what's happening during his counselling sessions. There is also the very real possiblity he's lying his *ss off....because your husband's version seems to conveniently support one conclusion: you need to give him permission to have sex with men while still married to you to prove he's gay. And that's some straight up bullsh*t. However, what I don't question is that your husband is likely scared about separation, divorce, and breaking up your family. I reckon both gay and straight husbands hesitate when it comes to separation/divorce, but gay men in particular because they're not sure if they'll meet a partner and fall in love. Moreover, if he's from a religious background, he's likely been brainwashed about "the gay lifestyle" which churches portray as some kind of drug-fuelled Roman orgy. I am, however, calling bullsh*t on your husband wanting to stay married to you while he's dating. It sounds like he's offering you a mixed orientation marriage during which he gets to f*ck men, find a boyfriend, and only then separate/divorce. Maddness.     

5. The other person who outright questioned my husband was another gay man who was also married about 14 years before coming out.  His son is also gay.  And when my husband told him his/our story, he basically asked my husband "So you've never been with a man?  How do you even know you're gay??" From everything I've read and know from different LGBTQ folks, it seems they've always known even if they don't deal with it at first, so why would he question?  The cynic in me wonders if he was just trying to goad my husband into admitting he'd had an affair.

What a minute: so who's this other gay guy and how the hell did they meet? I find it highly suspect that everyone your husband talks to about his sexuality is gay and they're all saying the same thing: "You need to have gay sex before you separate/divorce." How convenient. Let's consider the source of all this manufactured angst: your husband! Far from being some doe-eyed victim, I think your husband is quite the liar/manipulator. Please keep in mind that most gay people start hiding their sexuality around age 5 or 6, so he's had a whole lifetime of experience lying about his homosexuality. So his entire narrative is, "Honey I need to f*ck a few guys and find a boyfriend before we split up..." I call bullsh*t. Let's play devil's advocate here: I submit that your husband is feeding you only facts that reinforce what he wants: namely he wants the right to stay married to you while he feathers his gay nest. Yes it's crazy but your husband wouldn't be the first closeted man who tried to manipulate a kind and caring wife with the, "I just want to have my needs met" bullsh*t. Please provide more details about your husband's porn and sex habits. For example, if your husband has been fapping to gay porn for most of his life, this too is gay sex...even though it's virtual. If he's gone so far as to come out to you and others while also seriously contemplating separation/divorce, he's very likely had sex with men.  

6. Anyway...  Surely this isn't a thing? I believe there are probably people who decide they like the closet too much...

Bingo! It sounds like your husband is still emotionally straight and yet sexually gay. This might mean he wants to present as a straight, married, upstanding husband and yet still secretly have sex with men. That's essentially what a mixed orientation marriage is in my opinion: husbands who want all the trappings of being straight, while forcing straight wives to let them f*ck men. I reckon it's all part of the coming out process and is sometimes referred to as "splitting." Splitting typically refers to a gay man who is out/proud in the gay village in say NYC and yet he acts straight and religious when back home in rural Missouri.  

7. But I have a hard time imagining there are very many people who experience gay sex/relationships and then have a legitimate "oops I was wrong" moment.

It happens...particularly with 50+ year old gay men raised religious. Straight wives often discover years of gay cheating, separate, and divorce only to learn that their "queer as a Pride float" husbands eventually marries...A WOMAN! 

8. So I guess I ask why he would ask that. I know that question has bothered my husband even months later.  Like it put some kernel of doubt in his mind?  I don't know.

While I'm no expert, it sounds like your husband is simply questioning his sexuality, as most gay people do before fully coming out. He also sounds very fearful of separation/divorce...which is why it sounds like he's hinting at a mixed orientation marriage. 

9. For the record, I'm not hoping you'll tell me my husband might be straight.  I believe my husband has never physically cheated, but I do not believe or hope he's straight, and I'm long past the repeat honeymoon stage... I'm working on myself and the next stage of my life. I ask mostly out of curiosity, I guess.

Again, if your husband has come out to you; come out to his twin brother; come out to others; come out to his therapist; and is now openly talking about separation/divorce, I reckon his sexuality is no longer up for debate. You wrote, "never physically cheated..." which to me means you've likely discovered gay porn, racy photos, or gay sex toys but please confirm. For me personally, if a straight wife is posting here, has heard "I'm gay" from her husband, and he has asked for his wife's permission to f*ck men, there is little question in my mind that your husband is as gay as a rainbow. Put bluntly, it sounds like your husband is quoting a lot of unverified sources to try and brainwash you into letting him do what he wants: cheat on you with men while still married to you. 

I hope that I've answered your questions, but please feel free to post again. Be well! 

Last edited by Séan (January 7, 2021 11:45 am)

Thanks for following up TTSP. 100% agree that my first reply was b*tchy and condescending. I apologize if I hurt your feelings so just say the word my friend and I'll happily delete it. Your call! For those who haven't read our previous exchanges, your husband of 15+ years came out to you last year...in what sounds like a kind of wishy-washy way. You also mentioned that your husband was seeing a gay therapist and was also in contact with a formerly closeted gay husband/father, who is now out and has a gay son. In response to your follow-up question:

 1. Why would a gay man ask a newly out man "how do you know you're gay?" 

I have no idea! I'm happy to share my own personal experience which may or may not apply to your husband's situation. As a closeted gay man who married a woman and had children, no one challenged me when I told them I was gay and planned to divorce. I reckon their logic was simple: why would I come out and break up my family unless I was 100% sure that I was gay? Similarly, none of my gay friends were challenged when they came out. If your husband is truly getting push back after coming out, it might be because he's hesitating to separate, divorce, and be single again.  

2. You mentioned that your husband's gay therapist asked him the following questions: "How do you know you're gay?" "Wanting to have sex with a man doesn't necessarily make someone gay." "Of course you don't know if you're straight or gay because you don't have that experience to compare it to..." "I've had clients get out there and decide it's not what they want or thought it would be..." "You might be hyping this fantasy up in your head, only to get out there and be let down."

I'm not a mental health professional so I can't really explain why your husband's therapist is challenging him. I reckon it's the role of a qualified therapist to challenge a patient, often in an attempt to shock him/her out of their current (broken) way of thinking. Think of it as an emotional form of shock therapy.  

The point I was trying to make in my previous post was this: I believe there are two possibilities here - 

Option 1: Your husband is genuinely being challenged about his sexuality by two gay men (a qualified gay therapist and this gay father of a gay son). 
Option 2: Your husband is feeding you and his therapist false information in an attempt to get permission to openly have sex with men while still married as a kind of "trial run." 

I'm inclined to think it's option 2 (lying) my friend. I love that Judge Judy line that goes something like, "You know when a teenager is lying? When their mouth is moving." Gay-in-denial or semi-closeted husbands aren't bad people per se.  It's just that we are fundamentally incapable of honesty when it comes to talking about our sexuality. If I'm playing devil's advocate, I'd say that your husband is quoting a lot of unverified sources. And rather conveniently, these "sources" reinforce this bizarre narrative that you should let him have sex with men while married to you to prove that he's really gay. Although I haven't read all of your posts, I can only assume that you rightly said "NO!" when your husband asked for permission to cheat while still married to you. 

One risky yet brilliant tactic used by some straight spouses to cut through all the bullsh*t is this: the straight spouse pretends that she is ok with an open marriage. Once given this fake green light, it normally takes her husband less than a week to set up his first sex date. This accomplishes two goals: first, it ends all of the hand-wringing about "Is my husband really gay?"; and second, the speed with which the gay husband sets up his first tryst confirms that this clearly ain't his first rodeo. 

Again my apologies TTSP if I offended you with my last post. Please feel free to post again if you disagree with me or would like me to take down my original reply. We're all friends here. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean (January 9, 2021 4:03 am)