OurPath (formerly SSN) Open Forum » CD/TG too many thoughts to organize

OutofHisCloset · September 28, 2016 6:32 am

I'm new here, but I've already seen so many posts that speak to my position: those that make me nod in recognition, those that make me wince because they force me to acknowledge what I've pushed away, those that give me good advice and instructions for protecting myself, and those that give me hope.
I'm here now, pushed by the stress of living in his closet for the past eighteen months, of questioning whether we can make the marriage work under this new reality and whether I want to make it work. I have agonized over the uncertainties, asking myself "how can I know if we can make it work if I can't know what he'll eventually do?" I've gone from "I think I might be able to live with this if....(but he won't or can't say what the 'if' might be)" to "I don't think I can live with this" to "I don't want to live with this." The first step was saying I'm not staying in my husband's closet anymore--and that's why I'm here on this forum, and registered. Now I've finally admitted to myself that I don't want to spend the rest of my life with a man who hates his male body and doesn't want to be a man, even if he never comes out publicly. But I've not left behind entirely the wish that we could work it out, even though I think I know--no, I know--that we will never work this out. I have come to understand that a man who does not like his male body and who is sexually excited only by play acting through clothes and behavior that he is some feminine fantasy woman is not someone who can give me what I need. Nor is he interested in it, despite what he says.
I hope that to talk some about what the experience has been like is not a self-destructive act, something that reveals that I'm still bargaining with myself because a divorce after 34 years of marriage is going to be so vast a change and so difficult. But if that is true, that I'm still bargaining, hoping not to have to make the move I know I have to make, maybe I have to talk about it in order to do the "taking stock of my life" that will allow me to move on. Or maybe I just have to process my grief over the losses I've already suffered and those I know are coming. And I'm sorry for the dispassionate language--I admire like hell the way whatasham lets it out, because what she says so often matches exactly what I'm feeling--but I think keeping a tight hold on myself is a way for me to hold it together.
Since I've been pushed down the rabbit hole of my husband's CD/TG, I've been up and down the emotional rollercoaster--both ways to describe the experience that I have seen others on this forum also use (and nodded in recognition). To be pulled into his closet and not be able to say anything to anyone else for the last eighteen months has been a terrible stress. I've felt distanced from everyone I know, family, friends and co-workers; because I couldn't tell them anything about what was really happening in my life. I won't "out" my husband publicly, and don't think this is because I'm a paragon of ethical behavior, because the biggest factor in that decision is that I want to protect my 27 year old son from having to absorb this blow--until my husband comes out, if he ever does. In fact, sometimes I think I've thought I could stay because when I'm here my husband can satisfy his urges better then if he's alone, and that will keep him from coming out and hurting our son.
  I'm hurting. That's the truth. The hurts have been so many, from knowing my husband had a secret life of reading lesbian romance novels and watching "Transparent" and visiting cross dressing and trans activist sites with advice on transitioning all kept hidden from me for two years, to feeling my whole past taken away by his revelation, to feeling the loss of a man in my bed and my body. But mostly, I think, from knowing that I don't count, that what counts more than anything else to him is being able to act out his need to act like a woman. My husband has not said, "I feel as if I have always been a woman inside and must now do what I can to feminize myself and live as if I were a woman." That would hurt, but at least it would be clear, and my course of action clear: : I'd leave. I could not live with a transwoman. Instead, he's said that he knows he's a man but wishes he were a woman, and any action he takes to feminize himself, from cross dressing to shaving to seeing his body as if it were a woman's, excites him: scratches, as he put it, an itch that is nearly always there. This in-between state, one in which he holds on to being a male/man and puts the desire to be a woman into practice at home, while declaring his love for me and his wish to continue the marriage, has made me believe that somehow we could go on even while it's imposed intolerable and unwanted burdens on me--burdens he seems not to care that he's imposed.
  In fact, I often feel used. Secondary. An adjunct to the main action. I opened my computer this morning thinking I would write about his self-absorption, his selfishness, the way it seems that I have value to him only insofar as I advance his goal, play into his main driving desire, how he somehow turns the tables and gets me to endorse extending his crossdressing by making it seem my idea, how the goalposts keep moving. I'm seeing it and understanding it for what it is, and I'm seeing, too, how this self-absorption has been present in and conditioned our entire married life, even before he had a name for the way he felt or a will and a way to act on it. I know I ought to "run like [my] hair is on fire," as Kel (I think) advises, but because I a for the next couple of years better off financially that I want to go slow (although maybe that's my denial talking, and I need to assess "better off" by values other than financial).
Well. I said in the subject line I had too many thoughts to organize, and all over the place is where I am. But it feels good to finally have someone(s) to say it to, and to know you all have been through the same or similar.

phoenix · September 28, 2016 10:17 am

Great post!

It's so good for you to outlet your thoughts.. nobody cares if they are fully organized or written to follow a table of contents.. just type your feelings. We all gain some new insights each time we read each other's posts.

One thing I got from reading your post is that I have to start admitting to myself that my spouse has done me a favor by asking for a divorce. I know that if she had not asked for I wouldn't be actively going through the process now. I would be stuck in this purgatory of trying to keep an impossible relationship alive. I would have just added a couple more years to my tally of wasted life. While it didn't feel like a favor when she said she wanted a divorce (and honestly it still hurts), I know that she has done me a favor. I know this because I see what you are going through. You've invested 18 months trying to keep your marriage and find a way to make it work, and as you say, it's been terrible stress. I would have done the exact same thing and it would have made life worse for me in the end. I'm sure I can never tell her that I appreciate her decision because there is so much more baggage, I can see now that at least pulling the band-aid off in one rip is better than slowly and painfully pulling it away over a long period of time.

Thanks for your thoughts.. Please keep posting

OutofHisCloset · September 28, 2016 2:45 pm

Ynadin and Lostdad, I just wrote a long long reply to your posts, but before I logged in, and when I went to send it, I got a message I couldn't because my username was too similar (to my own logged in one); then I signed in, and the message disappeared.
I will try to reproduce it later or tomorrow morning, but I don't have time now--know, however, that I appreciate and learned from both your posts.

Steve · September 28, 2016 3:15 pm

Wow OOHC. Amazing post. I tend to leave the CD/TG advice to others who have had the experience but I just wanted to say that while you think your post was rambling I think you are starting to see very clearly.

SO OFTEN on this forum I see us - the straight spouse - being expected to sacrifice everything we are and everything we need and everything we believe in so that they (the non-straight spouse) can be 'free' and 'authentic' and 'true to themselves' and have THEIR needs met. Meanwhile our needs slowly fade into insignificance.

Often we get to a place of complete self-abrogation through a mix of manipulation, deceit and compromise until one day we go "Hold on!! How the hell did I get here?" and we realize that all of the little compromises me made, all of the overlooking we have done, all of the secrets WE have started to keep on someone else's behalf, have added up to a seismic shift in our lives that is not acceptable any more. It's death by a thousand cuts.

Sometimes we need to tell our spouse "If that's who you are and that's who you want to be FINE... but THIS is not me."

Kel · September 28, 2016 3:24 pm

Welcome, OOHC,

I'm sorry that you find yourself in a situation where this is a place you need to be. But I hope you find comfort, camaraderie and caring here. Don't feel like you need to organize your thoughts for us - this is about you. Dump it all out. It helps! I have been amazed throughout life that most of the real work of processing and thinking comes to me while I'm talking through the issues with good friends and loved ones. Something about needing to get it out puts it in front of you where you can see it all more clearly, organize it better, and discard a few pieces. It's a purging, and it's good for the soul. Don't worry that what you find inside by talking about it will unravel you. You may hear / see yourself say or type some things that you didn't realize were in there, but those revelations help us to move toward the right decisions for us. We are paralyzed when we are fearful, and for some reason, fear loses some of its power every time it's spoken out loud.

You say that if your husband told you that he'd felt like a female trapped in a male's body his entire life, that you'd feel better about it. I see literally no difference between "I've always felt this way" and "I feel this way all the time now". It's not like it can be reversed because it hasn't been present his entire life. And I'd bet money that if he were telling you the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, you would find out that's exactly what the reality is - he's always wanted felt like he's wanted to be a female. But he can't say that, because that makes him seem like he withheld critical information from you from the very beginning. This way, he makes it see like he was just walking down the street one day, and BLAM - he was hit by a trans bus. Like he's the true victim here, and you're just one by extension. I don't believe that for one single moment. I believe he knew, he just didn't want to admit the truth to himself. He therefore wanted nothing to do with admitting it to anyone else, either.

Now..... IF this were just a sexual fetish thing, it might be different. That'd mean that he felt and acted like a man in every area of his life, except that he enjoyed being treated like a woman in the bedroom. That may have been workable if he didn't need it every.single.time. Maybe not - because it would require you to be something that you're not (a lesbian) in order to satisfy his needs. There is literally no sexual satisfaction (and probably some disgust) for you in that, since you're straight. But MAYBE you could have made that work if that's the only area of your lives that it touched, and only sometimes, and you were getting fulfillment in all other ways. As it is now, he's doing it in the house pretty much any time he's home and alone or with you, correct? That's not a sexual fetish. That's a sexual identity. This is not temporary, and it's progressive. He gets to be more and more of who he wants to become, while you get to have more and more of what you want taken from you. Pardon the French, but.... FUCK THAT!!! In what marriage does that work well, no matter what the situation? None. Exactly none of them. If people stay together in that scenario (where one is only taking and the other is only giving), it's because someone has decided to lay their potential happiness on the alter - all because they love the other person, or can't see themselves being okay with them, or because they're scared they'll never meet someone better or that they won't be able to support themselves. And you can sure as hell bet that no matter what the reason, and no matter what the issue, when someone lays down their own happiness for the other, resentment builds. And it gets harder after that - not easier. You don't get used to it - it grows heavier and more burdensome as your muscles grow tired of the load. And then one day, you either collapse from the weight, or you decide you can no longer carry it. Only you're so broken by then that you have practically nothing left of yourself to drag your battered body away with. Do it while you can still walk away instead of being taken away on a stretcher.

As for your son, he's a grown ass man, hon. I know you don't want him to hurt - he's your baby and you love him and you want to protect him. But learning one's parent is gay or trans doesn't mean that the child cannot have a good relationship with them. It does mean that a spouse can't have what they came into the relationship for, though. So it's not the same thing for your son as for you. He may be angry, or upset, or even choose to cut his father out of his life - whether temporarily or permanently. And that's his right. Deciding to shield your son from who his father is just so they can have an inauthentic relationship is not good. It means that you are willfully allowing your son to be lied to because you don't think he can handle the truth. Yes, it may hurt him. So??? We do things all the time for our kids that we know they won't like or appreciate - because it's what's best for them. This is no different.

I know that divulging the truth of your husband's issue (and therefore your issue) isn't easy - you feel like you can't do that before you make the decision to move on from him. And you won't make that decision until you feel that you understand your situation enough to know how the future will likely look. It feels like outing him would be putting the horse before the cart. But this is YOUR life, too. You have every right to tell a good friend or trusted family member what's going on - so you can get the support you need. So that you have a real-life outlet (besides your counselor) to vent to, and process information with. And then someone knows. Cracking the door open a bit is a must - you can't see the other side through a closed door.

I wish you the best -

Kel

Last edited by Kel (September 28, 2016 3:31 pm)

OutofHisCloset · September 28, 2016 4:49 pm

Ok, here's a reconstructed version of what I lost earlier.
First, Ynadin, don't worry that you have offended me or been too tough. You are more right than you know that I have been conditioned from the beginning to self-sacrifice, but it started in my childhood. My father was bipolar, violent, and suicidal (by the time I was an adolescent he would threaten it yearly, and attempted it several times), and my mother would use me, his favorite child, to soothe him ("You go in and sit in Daddy's lap"). I learned very early on that other's people's happiness was my responsibility, and I have spent the better part of my adult life trying to unlearn that.
  In a way, lostdad, my husband's coming out of the closet as an autogynephile has enabled me to let go of that feeling of obligation to fix things or make other people happy, so, like your wife, my husband has done me a perverse kind of favor.
  As for my son, it's not that I want to protect him; it's that I would like to spare him the necessity of questioning his own masculinity and the same feeling I had that I had lost my past. Like depression and suicide, autogynephilia can run in families, and I would like to spare him the same kind of agonizing I did after my father killed himself, wondering whether I was also marked. I know that I won't share the knowledge with him as long as my husband is in the closet, out of the belief that it's my husband's responsibility to be honest about himself to his son. I'm even willing to be considered the "bad" one when we divorce (almost wrote "if or when," which I've edited, to make myself see it), unless I think knowing the truth about his father would be less damaging than any feeling he may be having about our divorce. I'm certainly not willing to out my husband to my son just for the satisfaction of it--although believe me I would love to have that satisfaction.
   Kel, you are right that cracking open the closet door is a necessity. It's that necessity that sent me here, and it's that necessity that has enabled me to tell two friends, one a long time friend (who lives in another state), and one at my workplace, a woman whose discretion I have seen and can rely on. It makes a huge difference to have someone in my day to day life who knows the truth of what I am living. This summer I told my mother, who knows that there is something going on in our marriage, that I wasn't prepared to give her the details, but that it, like Dad's suicide attempts, was something that we carried around with us all the time. I don't know how much she heard what I had to say, but I felt better saying even that little, letting her know that much.
  Steve and Kel, what you both say about who sacrifices and who gives strikes home to me. It's hard to admit this, and maybe harder for you to understand, but the truth is that in the beginning the sexual aspect was wildly exciting. I was excited by his asking for me to be uninhibited in ways and to a degree that I found in my life before marriage that men don't usually want (they might say they wanted a woman to take the lead but they didn't like it so much when it actually happened). I was fine with the idea that we were "two lesbians," even, because my husband has, after all, a male body, and it seemed like sexual experimentation and sex play. I even found that I could respond to him wearing women's clothes, although what appealed to me was not *him* in a chemise, but the way a rounded neckline accentuates a curve. (Ironically, I have always hated feminine clothing because to me its cut to emphasize women's secondary sexual characteristics, and watching myself respond convinced me that I was certainly justified in my belief.) That my husband wanted me to have the most pleasure he was capable of giving me felt great, and I made the mistake of not realizing he was like a vampire feeding on it for himself.
  I still enjoy the sex, although Kel you hit the nail on the head when you said it could be fine if it weren't every time. My husband has had erectile dysfunction for a while, and Viagra hasn't worked, so I haven't lost "penis in vagina" sex. I miss our two bodies speaking directly to one another in that way, but knowing he doesn't even want that anymore, wouldn't want it if he could, has been...well...for a bitter joke, hard.
Kel, I understand why you see no difference between a man saying "I feel like a woman inside" and a man saying "I would like to feel like a woman," because in effect the effect is the same when it comes to the way I am affected (wow; if I could use that example to teach my students how to use "effect" and "affect" correctly I would).
I have matched his "I don't know where I'll end up" with my own "I don't know when I'll have had enough," precisely because I wanted him to know that I reserved the right to say, Enough. And his latest move of extending his territory outside the bedroom while I am at home has moved me closer to "enough." We'll see how long I remain convinced that the financial benefits of staying at home another year or so is the right thing to do.
Again, people: thank you!

OutofHisCloset · September 28, 2016 6:49 pm

Ynadin,
Re: outing my husband. I didn't think anyone on this list was suggesting I out my husband. I was simply saying what I was thinking, trying to explain the way I've been thinking.
I think I'd prefer not to engage on the matter of my son beyond saying no, I don't think he's questioning his masculinity. I just don't think it's my job to out my husband to him. And when we divorce, I'm planning to keep my own counsel. If my husband stays closeted, I won't be telling anyone why.
It's really none of anyone's business why a couple divorces, and you can't control what others think of you. Suffice it to say there were irreconcilable differences. That's the truth. So let's just leave it at that.
No harm meant on my part.

Dee · September 28, 2016 9:33 pm

Hi OOHC and welcome,
Thanks for sharing your story. I also have a son who was close in age to your son when the sh* hit the fan in our lives, TGT, and I filed for divorce, and we were married almost as many years as you. I'll share an abridged version, it's not any easier when they are older, just different. But my kids knew the marriage was not fixable, and had witnessed the stress in our house, and our misery, which I thought at the time I was doing a stellar job of hiding. It was awful for them in the beginning, I'm not going to lie about that, and they had to figure this out in their own heads. But we have gotten through it, and they are doing pretty well know, and your son will too. I worry about my kids constantly too, but now it's time to worry about yourself! I waited too long, much too long, and I wasted years I'll never get back on someone who was never worthy of my love and commitment. Take care of you now, you are worth it.

whatasham24 · September 29, 2016 12:27 am

Dearest Outofhiscloset,

You have just made the bravest first step to finding clarity & peace!! You have found your way here, looking for advice, comparisons & help. I know how hard that is, after all, coming here is really all about "saying it out loud & lifting the lid on the corked up crap" that has been festering thru your isolation. It's so scary to make that first move because we don't even remember what crap & insecurity came first, what's on the bottom of that pile because we have shoved it down for so long. I will warn you though, the truth is a dbl edged sword. The more you find out, the less crazy & insecure you will feel about yourself, but with all the "ah ha!" moments of recognition comes grief & pain. Just as you mentioned, the signs were there, you sortakindamaybe noticed. The further I get along in my own awakening & read other's stories that are unique to CD/TG, the more I realize I knew all along. But like you, I was a combination of martyr, hopeful & when I'm honest with myself, chicken shit. Scared of being a single mom, scared of making an unnecessarily hasty decision, scared of being unloved, now that I was tarnished. over the 25 years of my husband\s CD-ing progressing & all the other sexual/emotional/spiritual side effects that go along with CD/TG, I thought 'Maybe this IS as good as it gets". My husband after all was a hardworking, loyal & honorable guy. So many people told me so. (that last attribute cracks me up now because there is absolutely NOTHING honorable about lying, cheating, deceiving, ripping off your wife for so many years)

Which leads me to my first suggestion to you, your son. I totally understand why a virtuous mother would want to guard her child, no matter how old, from the same pain & grief & loss you are experiencing. After all, it's his father! So I understand not wanting to blurt that out right at the moment, heck, you are JUST startibg to navigate the whole "disclosure & educate" stage yourself. But i will say that you should use your husband's progression as a que. Once his CD/TG declaration has been verbalized, he WILL progress. Perhaps he's in the 1% that doesn't take it beyond he odd in-home playdate with his en femme tickle trunk of stash. be preparred though for those goal posts you mentioned to keep moving, and at a faster pace than you expected or mutually decided on. Give them an inch & the DO take 10 miles! Their desire becomes insatiable as they look for that sexual high. In short, your son will find out by horrifying accident or your husband may selfishly accidently on purpose, out himself. They end up being more selfish & brazen, especially if you try to contain him. So perhaps somewhere in the future when YOU have caught your breath, have gotten some advice (from a councellor/therapist/online) and perhaps even involve your husband when he is in MALE mode, you can divulge to your son in a much gentler manner than \SURPRISE!". think of it as having the sex talk with your child BEFORE they hear about it from a friend. Your trust is lost on them if they see you didn't feel comfortable enough to discuss it, or u thought it best be left as a surprise. Not cool if you put yourself in his shoes. But in due time

Firstly, take care of YOURSELF! The days of being a martyr are bloody over!! It got us no where but in this deep gutter, trying to climb our way out & as you know, too many years spent in this pink fog of theirs has stripped us of everything we knew to be true about them, us as a couple & & us. Where the hell did WE go?! I am so far removed from who I was, at the core (the stuff that is supposed to be constant no matter what life throws at you), I am bouncing off the walls daily with confusion, anger, grief & simply being lost!

I would HIGHLY encourage you to find some to talk to, not just online. A girlfriend you trust with your broken heart & one who has dicretion. Notice i didn't say "good at keeping secrets"? It is NOT your responsibility to swallow anymore of HIS issues. Sure, don't broadcast it from the rooftops, but holding on to it is as insidious & detrimental to your health as a child being told by their perpetrator to keep the offense against them as "our little secret". The child/woman/ mother in you needs to be heard. I held onto my husband's crap for 24 freeking years. Didn't tell a soul. It damn near killed me. I'm now 50, have serious debilitating health issues and have zero energy that is required of me now to get out of this silent hell.

At least you have clearly decided, your future does not include living as a lesbian to a TG. I waffled for too many years. then, like an addict, we spouses find our bottom & decide to navigate out of this shitstorm. Find a therapist. One JUST for you. Start getting financials in order. If you need guidance before even consulting with legals, many legal firm websites give advice on what needs to be collected for your divorce attorney. be stealth!!. As hard as it is, do NOT show your cards. And DON'T feel guilty about being secretive like I did, he after all has not exactly been forthright to you has he all these years? I say keep your cards close, after you've perhaps squirreled away emergency funds or made arrangements, becuase once a CD/TG learns of your resolve to separate/divorce, they see you as the "Gate Keeper" to their long dreamed of femme fantasy & easy to fool beard. They REALLY show their selfish & narcissistic personality when you've pulled the plug on their comfortable gig of YOU doing all the compromising & THEM having all the cake.And trust, once his closet has been revealed to you he burns through money, resources, & patience like you couldn't imagine. In fact, he probably already has a stash somewhere.

I will post later when my body can handle typing more and link you to some insanely informative sites & blogs that have been an enormous resource to me these past weeks. As much as it sickened me to hear some of the psts & advice, it also led me back to the begginings of his secrets 2 decades ago, things I thought were kinda odd, but too tired or stupid to inquire about. It will also help to have some forewarning to what may be just around the corner. For me, reading all these former spouses (who didn't stay) stories, was the nail in the coffin for me to say out loud, "I'm definitely getting out", no more flipfloppin for this chic.

I wish you a gentle weekend ahead, go do something nice, just for YOU, like a movie, pedi, a new book, or go to Chapters with a starbucks & read their books. for free!

Big Hugs,
Sham

whatasham24 · September 29, 2016 12:34 am

Ynadin,
I'm not a begger so I'll only say it once, Don't go! I didn't see OOHC's rebuttal as anything more thatn just that, a rebuttal. I'm sure I've ruffled more that a few feathers here with my "passion" (as OOHC called it i think) Passion to one is brute force to another. So be it. That's what happens when so many hurting/hurt/scraed/pissed off/healing/healed people get together to rant & exchange ideas.

I for one need more TG advice, as do all the others out there who are not seeing much of a voice in their corner.

Pour a wine or coffee & we'll hopefully see you chime in

Sham

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CD/TG too many thoughts to organize

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