lily wrote:

I find your assertion that you fancy the Dutchman problematic.  Either we are having a fanciful exchange in which the way I used the word fancy in my post has been shifted to a different meaning (like I just did then) or not, you mean the same thing I did, that you fancy him - but that doesn't make sense to me, it's as if you are saying you are straight.

But you say you are a lesbian.  So now you are saying you are a lesbian who feels like a straight? 

you can't choose your sexual orientation.

Hi Lily, I am glad to hear you are doing a lot better…gardening he…that means progress is there! Go for it girl.
 
I was wondering after reading your post if you read back (not offended! ;) )what was written. Since I did comment to that aspect you mention. But…also the question that popped up in my mind,...essentially it’s more of a thought that went through my mind.:
Don’t you seem to fall in to a pit of expecting your own theory to be the only valid certainties of which conclusions can be drawn? Doesn’t that give a limiting and constraining jacket of labels and common / general thoughts that everyone thinks: “this is how things are and therefore can not be any thing else”.
 
For example the rule that there is no choice about how to deal with your sexuality. Which is a very common and general thought. “You are what you are and that’s just it. Everything else that does not acknowledge that fact can’t be true.”
And therefore just underline a common way of thinking and keeping it in place. And every one agrees with it.
 
I do see your point, and I undeniably understand your point. There is so much incredible hurt due to the fact non-straight people do not come to this point, where I am, and others (even on this forum).
But even scientifically there has been studies to this…and that it can happen. Sexual feelings are not as fixated as everybody seems to think and can evolve in another kind of direction. Like Lisa Diamond for example showed in her study on sexual fluidity.
 
If I would think/feel the way you are holding on to, all I wrote previously is BS (sorry!! for the use of terms). I would be a submissive and chained, bondaged to a marriage, and lying my eyes out about how happy I am.
And nobody is free….nobody can change… everyone, even the straight spouses in a heterosexual marriage that take their spouses for granted and have affairs (some with long-lasting and a variety of different people) is doomed to be stuck at their feelings, for that is what they seemingly need.  Obliged to blindly follow their urges and needs.
How successful can a MOM be if it is no more then: I can just bare my circumstances.  If that was the case, by all means… please, do go each of you your own path. Find happiness again in another relation. After all, every other step would be hurtful and demining to the spouse and both leading a miserable life.
 
Ask yourself the question, (and really I do know how difficult that is because, from a different perspective I was stuck in one too for a long time) : Can someone make a choice because he or she comes to a point on which somethings become clear? That’s not because of some sort of light flash from heaven (even if faith is very important too for me, and not only because it is valuable, and true). But faith in what you stand for, faith in what you really want and conviction within yourself with which you want to live by. 
Suppose being at that point and making the right decision and from then on forward….can and may resolve in change in you? Given circumstances, choices and the person you are with.
Don’t you think that it just should be (like I tried to tell in my posts) an open and clear path from a choice to stay together, and by doing so and work from that, evolve to something more?
Our marriage was never based on deception to begin with. And the changes in my sexual feelings was a beautiful present which we did not expect, but just happened.
 
I am as straight as the word intentionally means…that is honest, fair, direct, pure, and undeviating. My heart, love and intentions in this marriage are for my husband. Just as any hetero sexual active person in a normal marriage. I am focused on my husband and all that comes along with that aspect.
I think everything evolved eventually from the choices I/we made which eventually grew.. .
I accept who I am. But I also accept that I not have to be that, as in forcing and dictating me, that possessing jail cell I let go in my mind.
And it feels great being in total freedom, released from feeling that I am missing-out on someting ,
Freedom of labels and thoughts that constrain myself and hurt my partner,
Freedom to choose. Freedom to live my life as I see is what I want to be: Straight and experiencing this truth. Believe me…not only he feels that. I feel that too. So Yes, it can happen, it does happen.
The fact I’m lesbian, doesn’t limit my capacity to be free, only if I would allow it to do so.
 
I can not convince you. And you have every right to doubt after what you have been through and hurt by. I am so sorry for what happened. People do get hurt and betrayed by their spouses ignorance and self-indulgence.
But I know I am changed in thoughts and as consequence feelings followed, and I do not regret or doubt that. 
I hope you don’t either. 

Whishing you much more gardening we share an interest apparently, I love working in mine, to little time though and no green fingers, I am sure yours looks much better.
All the best.
Sam.

Hi Tangled, sorry it took a little time to respond to your post.
 
Maybe I already wrote about some aspects of your questions in my earlier posts. I'm glad to clarify it more.
Even though it's always a bit troubling to me, to go back to that period in time. I don't like to think back about it, but at the same time I know it was necessary to go through.
It wouldn't have come what it is now, if this hadn't happened. Also I hope someone may benefit from my story and experience. Break with lines of thoughts that are harmful to their relation. But that are also harmful to their straight spouse, emotionally draining them and injuring their life.
 
Before my "coming-out" I already struggled a long time with my "being" and sexuality in our relation. This had caused deep troubles in our marriage the years before. Too much to describe here, but I think that if I hadn't discovered being lesbian, it would have deteriorated and ultimately broken our relation at some time.
To me it was a revelation and somewhat of a relief to know. I was so glad I finally knew the reason for my lacking sexual feelings, that should have been there.
It released me of the feelings of guilt I experienced concerning the intimacy I'd felt, unable to give or enjoy sexuality with my husband.
 
Yes, that was more or less what it was like then. I don't know how to describe it better. About this distant past, looked upon from the knowledge and current situation that differs so much.
Well then... wrong assumptions, naif way of handling it all. That first after my coming-out year was dramatic. Going hither and thither with emotions, still also trying to find a sensible way in all of it, within the boundaries of marriage.
The fact that it was explainable, didn't make it less hurtful to the other.
 
When I discovered my sexual feelings, it was complicated for me. Especially to end my infatuation towards the woman I'd fallen in love with. Although nothing happened between us, she didn't even know my feelings. We met in a professional way and she was straight and married.
But I noticed many changes in myself, feelings that hadn't been there before. It grew and I looked forward to meeting her more and more. Over time the pieces of the puzzle felt into place until I saw the picture.
 
This discovery and excitement my feelings caused made me blind from the rest. I couldn't let go, in my head, heart and feelings.
I only partly/hazily realized I was married and these things happening to me surely would impact my husband as well.
It made clear to me so much, but at the same time was blind for what it would mean to my marriage, our mutual trust and future together.
 
I was too busy falling in love for the first time. Acting childish and foolish (looking back on it now). Seeking to affirmation of my feelings and that it was real. Real from me. 
My "exploring" was on internet for information, searching stories of equal minded, and also some looking at porn.
I kept pictures of the woman I was infatuated with, played songs that reminded me of her, and so forth. I paid more attention on how I dressed and looked and those kinds of things. Also I looked at women differently, like I was permitted to allow me that.
 
And I wanted to be honest also with all good intentions. My husband knew the truth. He also knew I wanted to stay with him, and I appreciated our connection and relation.
In my reasoning at the time, that somehow was enough.
 
I was scared of being alone, with or without our children. Starting all over again frightened me, I wasn't looking for divorce. I didn't want to lose my marriage.
 
The word `divorce´ was brought up more than once during that period. But by my husband actually. He expressed his feelings about the way it went, the consequences of my way dealing with it all had for him and by that to our relation.
He gave me a choice: "What do you want, what are you really going for?" Either we really go for it together and within the boundaries we agreed on, or our paths should separate.
 
To find a way between wasn't easy. And even to some extent, playing out my difficulties to intimacy by blaming my husband for his shortages in and around the house chores that needed to be done. Just to navigate around my own guilt and behavior.
Years later I realized I was caught up in a tunnel vision. Well a lot of stories like that are found on this forum.
I felt a loss in all that, something I couldn't explore but wanted to. On the other hand I knew what was right and what I should do. A strange no-mansland I found myself in... and between us... each on its own means and willpower.
Seeking a way forward, the best we could.
 
By then we were a year down the road, and started to approach it more seriously. I learned my sexual orientation is not the same as my identity. Like I read also in your reaction describing your husband: there are more important aspects that hold more value.
This made room to give it a more sensible and realistic place. The infatuation dissolved to the background. I needed this new perspective to land on my feet. My marriage, my husband and my vows, and going together for it had so much more importance.
It put my focus back to us instead on just myself. And this felt like the right choice.
 
But my sexual orientation still was my personal packet, something of me, which I (and my husband) had to reckon with. Like Dutchman had to accept me, but I accepted him only partial.
Me being lesbian wasn't the defining aspect of my identity as a person anymore, but it was still a very defining aspect in our marriage.
As if it was a core item in our relation, that was there to stay and nobody could deny. It was mine, and I wouldn't part of it. It fed a feeling of loss, even though I had decided I wouldn't follow up on it further.
It took much more time for me to understand this stance was actually just as damaging to our MOM, as it was holding it as something defining my identity.
 
No! I don't have to deny myself who I am, having my sexual orientation. That just is like it is. But... the priority and place I give it, certainly is within my will power to decide. That is MY choice.
It represents my dignity and self respect to go about honestly with all these things in my life that also depict my identity. It would deny myself if I wouldn't value my marriage and love my husband as much as he loves me.
I wholeheartedly choose my way in this that honors this all, and to me that's the real right choice.
 
If I have written something that needs more clarification please feel free to ask. It may take me some time to write but I will answer.
For now, thank you for your question!
Be well.

Hi Tangled,
t took long for me to respond…I did not intend to take this much time…I am sorry it did.

TangledOil wrote:

Thank you for your thoughtful reply, Samantha. Once my husband was able to see what his revelation and what he was asking for was doing to me (severe anxiety attacks and other symptoms of PTSD) he had compassion for my situation and was no longer only seeing things through his tunnel vision of what he wanted. It made a huge shift, but it took me months longer for the anxiety to ease on my end. Actually, his revelation made no difference to me all all. I knew on some level or entire relationship. It was his initial ask that he be permitted to explore that sent me reeling.

Yes, I now can imagine that this would give you a far more unsafe and unsure gaze into the future. Because it brings you right in to the center of what you always expected to be good and just for the two of you: the ties that held you together and were yours and yours alone. Nobody ever questioned that to be broken. The promise you both made to eachother. In that promise there is so much you can handle, acknowledge, even look through the fingers. Aslong as there is always (mostly) unspoken promise which you can rely on, swim and splash in, make mistakes or enjoy, be vulnerable and grow and so on…but always knew that this was the tie to keep you and hold you (and your husband) one hundred percent sacred.
It is like a train going out of its rails….
or like a mist coming over the unharmed splendor of a garden and you do not see the beauty anymore. When I read what Dutchman wrote mainly in his first posts even on this forum it had a huge effect on me too although things already for us were changed so I do understand what the word “reeling” keeps.
It gave a drowning experience and the fear that it will (never) be different. What you heard (Dutchman) was for real. What you (Dutchman) heard was that you were not enough anymore.
And it is that trust that needs to grow again.
It’s the acknowledgment for the straight spouse to be sincerely recognized again. That it is real and from the heart not to be messed with ever again. That love between you is the promise you made in the beginning and was sacred and that this still is the line that will never be crossed. Because you know your husband has your heart in his mind not to take for granted, but as a gift that he has to cherish and enormously happy with and proud to do so. And that is a choice. A real hard choice. ALWAYS to be reckoned with and the source which is at every thought and discussion.
I made that choice because someone said something that made me think. And it gave me everything. Even though it sounds to the world I have to put my feelings aside. But I am, I think, far more happier, and proud of who I am,  than most of the people who think I do not follow my feelings and disavow who I am. I will never take Dutchmans love for me for granted ever again.
Does that mean I have to be submissive? NO!!
Does that mean I have to get in the closet again? NO!!
For I have seen this question come around even in this threat, frequently, in which my approach is downgraded and disbelieved because a gay needs a gay…so a MOM doesn’t and can not work.
But…
For one thing…being submissive would only mean I am not sure of my own choices or conviction or views I myself have considered very seriously. As if I’m still not myself and do not know what I am doing, as if I’m just acting on a question of someone else and not being fair to myself OR my husband.
Nor does it make my husband to a bully who does not consider my feelings!!
If you are convinced of what you belief to be true and right in what you think, want, feel or need that is absolutely the opposite of being submissive.
Because if that was not the case I would be submissive to my feelings…I truly think which is poorer and worse…
And for my husband it would mean he does not feel accepted and ignores his own feelings of wanted to be loved and understood and true to himself.  
I am not the one who has to convince herself to love my husband with all my heart and all my feelings.
He is not the one who has to demand his presence and acknowledgement as a man.  
It only means I have to cherish and be happy with what I have and know for a fact ,that WHY I am not holding to a feeling that I am missing(-out on) something.
Feelings are a result of your own will. Not the other way around.
But more and more I see and read that that is the way culture is making everybody think as a moral thing to do. And it is wrong! It is the moral upside-down, especially when one is married.
 

TangledOil wrote:

Both my husband and I don’t want to sacrifice all the wonderful things we have in life, including our relationship, over this. It’s just not worth it. Early on after his revelation we spoke of divorce, but that conversation only lasted one weekend and then we put the idea to rest.

This is so good to read. But also a very determined, stout statement from you! I hope your husband sees the depth of this, besides the willingness for him to not follow his feelings. That it is not a sacrifice but a gift. I am impressed with much that I am reading in your posts, and your willingness to make this marriage work and looking for each other as equal and in care for each others needs.
(sometimes I wish I could just write in Dutch…that would give me so much more words the language keeps being a somewhat limiting hirdle to me)
 

TangledOil wrote:

Thank you, yes, Samantha... at first he did have tunnel vision... it was the #1 priority. I remember crying and being very upset and telling him “it really sucks that sex ruins so many otherwise good relationships.” I think that’s when the shift started to come about in his thinking. He started thinking about why should one aspect of a persons being destroy the numerous wonderful aspects of a persons life.

So true! And with what I wrote in previous paragraph it is so ridge and worthwhile to follow that path.
 

TangledOil wrote:

I think I accepted my husband’s bisexuality before he did (before the revelation), but I think his reluctance to discuss any of it for awhile now made me slightly uneasy, but I certainly wasn’t preoccupied by it. My life was always rather typical and very good... I was never consumed by thoughts of “what if...?” for all these decades together.

Could that be because you already partially accepted his bisexuality as a part of him?
But the fact that he thought out-loud, so to speak, to explore his feelings made it just go beyond the boundaries between you two. You did not expect that part… and that made it all vulnerable for you.
 

TangledOil wrote:

I found something I love on Reddit and I’ll post it here... regarding what a bisexual husband needs to consider as he comes out to his wife.
 
“I wish I could get across to bisexual husbands how desperately your wife needs reassurance at these times--and probably will for a long, long time. You've just said something about YOU that she can't help but hear as being about HER--you've said something she heard as "I want something that isn't you, and I always will." It's hard not to hear as a threat. You will have to give her a lot of care when you come out to her. Part of that may (probably will) be a lot of sex--she needs to know that even if you want guys, you primarily want her, and she is still your priority--that you are HAPPY to make her your priority. You LOVE to make her your priority. You aren't going anywhere. A secure, well-loved woman can make a lot of room in her heart for a lot of things (experimenting, opening up, fantasy play, etc...), because she wants you to be secure, happy, well-loved, and satisfied. But she has to be completely confident in you first.”

 
Could you give me the link to this post?  
I would very much like to read it again, maybe there was more?? And learn more about the person behind that post.
I really sounds very good.
But…I also wonder what precisely is meant with “can make room in her heart for a lot of things” Does that incline meaning experimenting opening-up a marriage? Or does it just mean just more communication within a marriage so love between the gay and straight spouse will grow and develop anew in trust and openness….
Not that she eventually with enough given love and support will open-up to something that might go against initially given boundaries.
The way it is described in the Reddit post leaves a little room for reservation. I hope you do not mind me asking that….my first response was “wow, that’s how it is…” but reading it a few times left me a bit wondering…
I have seen too much of statements like these to not be critical.
 
I wish you (both!!) well! And keep save.
Corona in Holland led to almost a full lockdown again for the next 5 weeks. Brrr. Not good.
Sam.
 

Last edited by SamanthaNL (December 14, 2020 4:11 pm)

Don't want to clog your forum post to just say thank you for your honesty and writing on these forums. My husband is lost right now - and I tried sharing some of your words with him. He's new to being gay, so he is having trouble understanding how being in a monogamous relationship with the opposite sex is not being straight, but at the same time he doesn't want to give up on our relationship. He's not necessarily any closer, but sharing your experience is providing us with new things to discuss. Not always easy things for either of us.

Samantha and Dutchman, 

I want to commend the two of you for the loving relationship you have forged together. I also want to thank you both for sticking around SSN as a light to show us there can be a beautiful outcome for a MOM. 

Thank you both again, 

Tangled