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July 10, 2020 9:18 pm  #21

Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

Hi Lilly, I am sorry, for not replying yet, had a hectic couple of days helping my son move to another apartment. But I will respond as soon as I can.

What I want to identify with involves so much more than just my sexuality, it holds my legacy of faith, value, trust and who I want to be. 

July 13, 2020 7:46 pm  #22

Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

Hi Lily, he he...done helping my son to another apartment.

"lily" wrote:

I don’t know why you’re surprised I see the religious aspect as being important to both of you,  you’re members of an evangelical group and, um, well I read your husband’s posts!

I am not surprised of your pointing out that my faith is an important aspect within our marriage, I am surprised at the fact that you’re seemingly make an assumption to my Christianity which I only briefly mentioned. And by doing so you are putting my own thoughts and consciously made choices which I did describe, made in great care to my husband and our marriage, to a lower level of a generalizing way of what you read and what you think.
That surprised me.
It suggests that you are reading my posts not at face value. Maybe you are gazing away from what I write, with all kinds you came across on the forum past.
So this in regard to the surprise thing…
In regard to the faith thing….
Yes, my/our faith is important, certainly so. This is by far more important and holds much more than sticking to some sort of rulebook. It is a main ingredient in my life.
But like I said, that does not exclude my own thinking and responsibility in any way. And yes well…I think I did clarify that aspect in great length.
That means from my perspective the problem is more that you seem to think to know what that means, and not being objectively open to what I write.
Like it doesn’t matter much what I write, because somehow... “It’s has to be the religious thing”.
For example. Last year we told about our MOM to some (secular) people, explaining very clearly the way we go isn’t about “sin and damnation” in any way.
But they totally ignored what we said, to them it was simply: “you’re (somewhat) orthodox christians, so… you follow the Nashville declaration”. Period.
You respond different, but not so different. Like: fast to put me in a box labelled “religious” and well... “we all know what that means”...
I want to avoid that. Because than it’s not about what I actually write, but it’s more about what you suppose “religious people think”.
Let me state this clear: I am not contained in a box. I am not denying or eluding my sexuality for the sake of some sort of higher or other religion that people make of it. I am free to choose my own path.
I get the impression that your assumptions are based on something you do not fully understand but still have an opinion about based on what you have come across. But I am not everybody. Nor are you, I have read your replies to my husband too (and others), and you gave me the impression that you think further then generalized boundaries.
So…if you want to ask me specific questions please do! But do not interpret me as some sort of over generalized case. Why suggest/fabricate intentions I supposedly should have, that are not based on what I write myself?

‘there are more important things than sex’ – that’s what my ex always used to say.  Brr!

When eventually another decade or so down the track he said there’s more important things than love, well I knew he was wrong about that.

The thing is, that my intentions were totally the other way around than your husbands, it seems.
I considered fulfilling sexual feelings less important than the love to my husband and me keeping true to that love. And commitment to that love eventually resulted in a sexual fulfilling relation with my husband.

Falling in love with someone else when you are naturally monogamous – that’s highly stressful isn’t it.  And yet it happens so often in a MOM.

It also happens in many straight marriages. And often leading to a crisis in the relation. It’s a signal that there is something wrong in the relation.
In the case of a MOM this reason is quite obvious. In all cases it should be the start of dealing with this crisis. Start talking about it, start being honest, consider very well and all that follows.
A crisis can be necessary to honestly start facing and addressing problems.

Both you and your husband have alluded to a breakthrough in your sexual relations – I’m not interested in details thank you very much, but it has occurred to me that under the umbrella of a spiritually-committed monogamous marriage you might have found common ground in sexual expression through being a match in terms of dominant and submissive.

Like in “that is what religious people surely are inclined to do, and the typical way they relate to each other in marriage”. ???  (See my remark about the first sentence of your post).
No, the way it worked out was because what I wrote about it, that is: my thoughts and the choices I made.

Mainly it seems to me from the stories here the gay spouse is submissive but the stories where they are dominant seem to have an extra slice of abuse.

No comment. And if you think this is in any way applicable to me or our marriage, please explain why and how you get that impression.

But even when that is not the case, even when you have everything else going for you, my personal feeling about it is that without the equality of mutual attraction it is like an electrical charge that isn’t fully earthed.

In other words: Whatever I say, and no matter what I (and my husband) explain and describe about our life and marriage...  you have your opinion, and your opinion rules.
Well, I can’t tell you what to think. But it feels a little pointless if all that I write is discarded because you have your presumptions about what “religious” people think, and whatever I write can be ignored because your held opinion is what counts anyway.
You are welcome to ask me any question you like, but I cannot respond about a fictional character that I am not.

What I want to identify with involves so much more than just my sexuality, it holds my legacy of faith, value, trust and who I want to be. 
     Thread Starter

July 14, 2020 8:00 pm  #23

Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

However, having stated my previous post, your last remark triggers me to respond some more…
I get the impression you think a MOM relation is bound to be crippled in a basic sense.

…without the equality of mutual attraction it is like an electrical charge that isn’t fully earthed.

I do acknowledge that this was the case when we started our journey. And it’s not as if we made a choice to stay together, stick to intentionally good will and boundaries of love and then everything will go alright by itself.
This was one of the mistakes I came to realize after a period of time. After the first turmoil settled down, there came a period of time I thought I was doing the right thing. And yes, in the base of it all, my husband and I walked onward accepting each other as we were, but both of us missing something we were longing to have but which would never be fulfilled. Like walking in each others gardens, trying to make it attractive but missing the fertilizing soil to make it really bloom.
The core of my mistake was that I was just trying to fix what was. Trying to somehow restore things back to where we were when we got married. But that was never going to happen. I was not the same person anymore, and my husband felt rejected as he was. So… no…not going back. Imitating the old situation as the best we could with our best intentions,  as a sort of attempt to create a substitute situation for what reality was. Of course this didn’t work. But for a long time I didn’t see how wrong this was and also didn’t realize the toll it took on my husband.
For my husband, more and more growing feelings of being rejected. And for me, being stuck in a gap of having a loss of something that would never be fulfilled. If I stayed that way I would have ended up maintaining the old situation coping the best I could with my feelings and we (our MOM) would be strugling along.
At the time we didn’t know what possibilities lay ahead. But now I know it is important to see a MOM as a process, something that evolves. As long as your’re not where you both realy want to be, keep working for a way forward.  The solution and outcome was an entirely new situation.
I was triggered by a remark someone made about man and wife in marriage, and that started a chain of thoughts that set me on a totally different line of thinking. Like a small rock that starts an avalanche.
It’s not rocket science, it’s about making determined and considered choices. Combined with simple reasoning, like “if ‘A’ then ‘B’ is the consequence” while keeping the line of thinking true to who I am.
To give a short version of it:
I am choosing for this marriage, I am choosing for a MOM, so that means I have to focus on that fact alone. It means that I also decide to construct the new foundation and build on that.
But choosing for my husband means I have to find my significance in relation with my husband. And most importantly:  therefore not maintain feelings of denying myself (like a loss) things which stand perpendicular to what I choose.
The choice is : marriage with a man. So I have to let go of the feeling that I am missing out on something. “Missing-out on” means:  I would somehow rather have my own needs be filled but I don’t follow up on those feelings.  Going for the total new situation means : I am not missing –out I am satisfied with that what I have and focus on that. And thats the base I take.
Because that’s who I want to be: A woman married with the man I love. Fact!
And deal with that fact and that fact alone.
And this can be new soil. This can develop something new.
It is liberating to choose to be free to make a choice. Being aware of the strength this has.
By making choices and knowing why I made those choices, a new mindset began to evolve based on what I wanted to pursue and what I felt was good. (most part following up on common logic).
Concerning my faith: it’s not Christian to walk around in a blackdress frustrated and deprived of happiness bearing a heavy burden. It is about care in truth and genuine sincerity what is mine and entrusted to me.  Not because I am forced to do so, but because I freely may and am able to do so.
All in all it describes the picture of me establishing my new foundation. It’s about conviction and considered choices.
But what about feelings?
I let my husband into the emotional place within myself, to which I had blocked him out before. Not that I consciously wanted to block him, but before I just couldn’t. Actually, I even wasn’t aware I did.
It’s from that place he has in myself, I can share my feelings with him and receive his feelings for me, like any straight woman could. Without limitation or borders (nothing I am aware of). We are a very happily married couple, enjoying each other. Both loving and proud to be connected to a beautiful person.
There are certain aspects that are different compared to straight relations. I enjoy every aspect of our sexual relation, but I probably follow a different route in some of my feelings than a straight woman would. Nevertheless the result is just the same. It’s simply not true that a sexual relation in a monogamous MOM is limited by definition.  So sure, sex in a MOM can be problematic, just like we experienced in our relation for years, but it can evolve beyond that.

What I want to identify with involves so much more than just my sexuality, it holds my legacy of faith, value, trust and who I want to be. 
     Thread Starter

July 15, 2020 10:47 am  #24

Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

SamanthaNL wrote:

Hi Phoenix, nice to meet you. Thank you for giving me this opportunity and your kind words.  Yes I have seen the conversation about my presence, and I fully understand the “why” for it. I can assure you I will not respond to other threads then this one. I have tried to answer some questions by telling about some of the things we wend through and choices I/we made in hope it may encourage others.
Congratulations on your marriage, a sparkling and thriving new journey. And your new job!
I will ask if needed, thank you very much, for now its just that my English is not as spontaneous good as my husband's so I take a little longer to write. But please tell me if i am speaking gibberisch. 

Samantha.   Your English is fantastic.. don't even worry.  It's probably better than mine 

Thank you for your kind words and congrats on my new marriage.  I appreciate it. 

I have a question for you and for Dutchman together.   It's an idea that I think will help the forum and help those who wish to remain married, however, it's not something I'm qualified to do because I have a different life experience.  You two have the experience and knowledge to be able to help lead this project. 


My idea is to build something similar to the "first-aid kit" thread we have in the general forum  https://straightspouse.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?id=1217    But it would be tailored to the men and women of this section of the forum.. for those who want to make their marriage work. 

Would you and Dutchman consider writing a "how-to guide" for strategies to maintaining a mixed orientation marriage?   I would like to include contributions from the whole group in this forum.. "group-sourced", but we need someone to get the project going.  

My example would look something like this:
How to create a successful Mixed Orientation Marriage(or relationship):  A how-to guide:
So you've found out that your partner is LGBT and you want to maintain your marriage under this new paradigm?  Welcome to the Strategies for MOM's section of the SSN forum.   We are here to help you learn how to make your marriage or partnership successful.   The following is a guide developed by our forum members with the best advice to help you through this process. 
1.)  Make sure you and your spouse develop clear and honest communication.  Some partners have known about their sexual preference or gender identity for years and haven't shared, while others say they have just begun to understand themselves recently.  Either way the most important requirement moving forward is honest communication.  
   A - Honest communication about the sexual preference.  Both partners need to fully understand how their spouse feels and what they are attracted to.  If this is unclear it will be hard to find trust. 
  B - Honest communication about desires.  Both partners need to understand what the other needs and wants.  Will you have an open marriage?  Will you still have intimacy in some way?  Are both partners willing to find common ground?

2.)  Trust.  Now that things are different, if the partnership will be successful there needs to be trust between the two people.  How will you develop rules or guidelines to ensure trust?  Will you allow access to private communications?  Will each party follow-through on promises they have made?  

3.)  Outside parties.  How will your new situation impact relationships with other people outside your partnership.  Will you continue friendships socially?  Will you tell family members about the situation?  If you have an open marriage, does the other partner have any influence in who else you see?  Will you seek help from outside parties such as therapy?  

4.)  Tips.    Here are some ideas we have learned that can help.  
A - A once a month "date night" where we find a private time to check in and communicate about how we are feeling.  This ensures we don't keep secrets or lose track of how we are feeling. 
B - Find a therapist and go to a group session to help with communication. 

I'm just inventing things..  so if they are dumb.. please disregard..   As I said, I have no good experience here.   But I feel like there is a need for a list or guide we can publish in the forum.  I know everyone has a unique situation and we want people to start new posts and share and ask advice..   But I think tons of people visit the forum and don't sign up, so having a resource guide would be very helpful to them.   

What do you think?

No time-frame or due date.   Consider the idea and if you want to work you can do it when you find time.  

-Formerly "Lostdad" - I now embrace the username "phoenix" because my former life ended in flames, but my new life will be spectacular. 


July 15, 2020 12:33 pm  #25

Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

I think that's a great idea. I hope Dutchman & Samantha agree to help with that. They both express themselves so well, and have one of the healthiest MOM's I've seen, with one of the most well thought-out strategies on making it good for them. I'm learning so much already.



July 15, 2020 4:38 pm  #26

Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

“Hi Samantha,
I’ve been thinking about this post of yours and I’ve decided to do myself a favour.  This will be my last post, I enjoyed my conversation with the Dutchman but I am not enjoying talking with you.
Your style seems to be one of taking offence at what I say and yet this is a subject that requires a lot of good intention to have a conversation at all.  As to questions, I’ve asked my question and still no answer which is entirely up to you if you wanted to answer or not.
So end of my attempt at conversation and questions.
All the best, Lily”
That is what I wrote yesterday and got ready to post it but then I saw you had written a second post.   So to add - If you are interested in explaining how as a lesbian you handle the sexual aspect differently to a straight woman that would be useful I think. Otherwise, reading how you made this cool decision that A looks better than B so you are going to stay married - to me it's just chilling.
My sympathies are firmly with the Dutchman.
I will no longer take part in this section for MOMs, and will likely retire from the forum altogether if any part of it strays over from here to the general part.   

all the best everyone, Lily


July 17, 2020 3:26 pm  #27

Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

Hi Phoenix,

I have a question for you and for Dutchman together,
Would you and Dutchman consider writing a "how-to guide" for strategies to maintaining a mixed orientation marriage?  I would like to include contributions from the whole group in this forum.. "Group-sourced", but we need someone to get the project going.  

You address us both, and we discussed this together how to respond. Well, as you see, I take the liberty to respond, and in full consensus with my wife Samantha. My wife feels it necessary however to add that she is fully aware of, and understands the negative feelings and difficulty with her presence as gay-spouse being on SSN even though it concerns a MOM and being both partners in a good relationship. 

We think it's a great idea to set up something like the "first-aid-kit" your purpose. For we both think it could potentially be helpful and beneficiary for people seeking their way through this difficult and chaotic situation. Because it often feels like walking through a desert trying to find useful info from actual people's experiences in a MOM.
Because this is the straight spouse forum, we both think it should be from the perspective of the straight spouse seeking advice. And actually, we feel this point of view can be just the needed sensible and effective way to go about things as a baseline. Not at all denying the importance of the way the gay spouse is handling the situation (her/his self and the marriage relation). The gay spouse should not be an adversary, but rather be(come) an accomplice in reaching a happy MOM together. It's an enterprise both spouses have to go for.
So I would be glad to start this project you purpose. The connection to the straight spouse is the entrance point, but we'll bring in our mutual experience when useful. We both (my wife and I) agree the straight spouse experience should be the main line/lead connecting to this support. 
Still, lots to think about and work on a draft "First aid kit" for MOMs or rather "How to Guide"
Well... much to write, but also so much I have to limit myself describing. To condense it to the essentials will be a challenge.  

Last edited by Dutchman (July 17, 2020 3:33 pm)


July 17, 2020 6:01 pm  #28

Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman


Thank you and Samantha,  who I know will help, even though most of it will come from you, the straight spouse, and I fully get that and respect it. I'm sure the two of you will handle it beautifully. It's a lot of work, but y'all have already done so much, and so well, too.
I hope to learn from you. I wanted to ask you more questions, but I couldn't come up with any right now...oh well.
good luck!


July 17, 2020 8:56 pm  #29

Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

”Lily” wrote:

I’ve been thinking about this post of yours and I’ve decided to do myself a favour.  This will be my last post, I enjoyed my conversation with the Dutchman but I am not enjoying talking with you.
Your style seems to be one of taking offence at what I say and yet this is a subject that requires a lot of good intention to have a conversation at all ……
So end of my attempt at conversation and questions.

Hi Lily,
Sorry it took a bit longer to respond. I am sorry you got the idea that I am/was offended. I can assure you I am not. Maybe because writing another language then your own and translating to get a point across goes at the cost of how I would ordinarily connect. Usually I am not that vigorous even a little timid. It is not at all my intent to be offensive.
However I did not want to be unpleasant, I was responding to the dissimilar points of view which expressed a somewhat  “one way” street which seemed to apply to every gay in a MOM and therefore to me too. An approach that not only can not be true but also puts prejudice the integrity of my values and choices especially in my relationship to my husband.  
Also  the way you seem to be stagnant in the idea  that only under the bondage of religion I make my marriage drag on.
Both I have tried to answer that difference of opinion with great care and good intention as much I know how, and I know you have in the care that you feel for straight people in protecting them for bad and harmful marriages . I am absolutely sorry we didn’t find a foundation there on which we both tread along. And I hope you will reconsider.
I am not an enemy, nor are you. We both want to find answers to what we experience and relate to.
But I can not, like I said a few posts back, relate to someone I am not, I hope you will give me room to debate that.

”Lily” wrote:

….As to questions, I’ve asked my question and still no answer which is entirely up to you if you wanted to answer or not.

Many times I have asked myself the question what I missed what you wanted to know because for me it seemed I did answer your question.  So, I think there is a lack in communication there from my part but not because I did not want to. That is also the reason I said: “if you haven’t had an answer please ask me more specifically to what you want to know.” This speaking about my feelings and all is new to me too. Especially on a forum like this.
I never stated that the way of what and how I and we (Dutchman) moved on in our marriage is THE rule book for every gay and spouse. I think that was my reticence to begin with when I was asked to tell something about myself here. I just know that what we have is good and it gave our marriage the tulles to  grow and in time made it to something we both not did expect to happen but it did. I am not proud of how I nearly broke someone at the price tag of my feelings but I am proud of being with the man who never left my side and accepted me as I was as we both strolled through a whole new territory. Finding out what we exactly felt and how we could build a bridge back to one another.
That didn’t happen overnight and took time and effort and choices. Not only for me but also my husband and in that range of what is clearly something one pursues together, lies the answer for every new day or month or year you strive to make it work.

”Lily” wrote:

So to add - If you are interested in explaining how as a lesbian you handle the sexual aspect differently to a straight woman that would be useful I think. Otherwise, reading how you made this cool decision that A looks better than B so you are going to stay married - to me it's just chilling.

Here is your question…;) which I understand and will try to answer though I am not sure one can fully describe my feelings as an example for everyone like I already mentioned. And I think I can honestly say that choices are at every base and every turn. Not simply to be made, but considered and truthfully honored. Because that is the way to stick to your own self and conviction for where you find your identity and self-respect.
But…your question….
“how as a lesbian you handle the sexual aspect differently to a straight woman”
First of all I can not completely fill that gap in answering that question. I am a lesbian so I really do not completely know how a straight women would feel. I would be lying if I said something other than that.
But certainly do not want to make the next I say in to the primary reason for me being gay but explains a lot, for instance why making my own choices is important and had no idea what so ever on who I was or what I should have to feel and why it took me years to figure why I could not connect with Dutchman the way I somehow felt should have been the case.  I just did not know. I couldn’t even say to my kids I loved them without feeling it to be a hollow phrase.
I am the daughter of a mother with a narcissistic personality disorder.  I was brought up in a family with a great deal of trouble and turmoil. I am number four as in two sisters and brother above me and one sister late coming after us four.
I was invisible in some aspect and in others I never could do anything right or was a lowed to have an opinion of my own. Bullied, abused mentally and so on.
This is a long story but eventually it took me to a point to which I just wanted to end my life because I thought everyone was better of without me. And tried to…
After years of therapy and lots of ups and downs slowly this changed for the better. I got to know myself my worth and that I was loved. I became a person, instead of a nobody. And that I missed out on so many I should have learned and all sorts of puzzle pieces were missing in the broad picture and would never learn the way it was supposed to have happened.
Well…this is why my sexuality also had a long way before I knew I was a lesbian and maybe already was for a long time. I don’t state that for a fact. I just do not know.
Still, I was married to Dutchman for twenty years by then, and although we had problems as you clearly state in a variety of feelings and emotions that I came to realize were not there, I do however knew that our marriage was good. I never resented Dutchman for who he was. But I resented having sex all together not knowing why. I understand that sounds strange but that is absolutely how it went.
But I think when I refound myself and who I was able to acknowledge and distinguish my feelings. Not all of a sudden or to the full extent. Maybe you could compare it with someone who starts to see after surgery but never could before…
That is why this infatuation with this women I fell in love with so extremely and overwhelming.
And why I made all the wrong turns… I came to know feelings I never knew before and were not there. I deeply treasured Dutchman up till then, he was the one for me, but not in every aspect and now I knew.
Well sorry, this was needed to be said to explain there is a before and after I got to realize I was a lesbian and learned what those feelings all mean. But also why I never have to make a decision of letting the sexual part in our marriage be bey-gones. My husband did not change, I had slept with him for over twenty years, maybe with a great gap in everything because I didn’t know what I should really feel but didn’t  really like.
Yes in that sense I was pulled out from under a stone.
But once I knew and had an answer after years of feeling guilty without knowing. I could feel far more relax and reach out then I ever could. I didn’t hate my husband. I still loved him. He was not the cause of my changed feelings nor the one to put my blame on for missing something.
That was the beginning…and yes that was also a struggle for a long time.
Starting to look at women with a whole new set of lenses and feelings
By time I learned that my conquered “not know” feelings were not my identity. It did not make me to who I am but that it just was a part of me and a whole bunch of other things that make me to a fully acceptable and worthy and loving grown up woman.
Well…this doesn’t answer your question yet.
But it is a start…. Bare with me…
By time it settled, it healed a great many aspects and my self. I felt complete and whole. I felt loved and accepted by my husband also in a manner I have never felt before. It changed my perspective on sexuality and beauty and finding each others heart, really feel…really be a part of him as he is a part of me…I think that is a key ingredient. Maybe it is not totally in the same manner as a straight women would feel and connect and look at the physical appearance, but then again why would I say I have been healed to a straight person and would feel the same things. That would be lying. But I look in his eyes and feel the connection. I feel his hands and touch, I see what I give him makes him happy and that arouses me. I see him as a man and I am excited to be with him. Not just a flash of the moment or have to image someone else while we are doing it or anything like that. I am fully enjoying and feel him and he arouses me.
I still know the moment on which that happened for the first time after a long time of struggle.
I may have chosen a lot of things for all the right reasons but what I feel when we have sex is right out of the core of my heart and not one inch of my being is not connect to that desire.
Tomorrow we will celebrate our 35th anniversary, and I wouldn’t want it in any other way then with my husband whome I love with all my heart.

Lilly I hope I have answered your question if not…feel free to ask.

”Lily” wrote:

 My sympathies are firmly with the Dutchman.

I am glad, because then we have the same mutual interest at heart.
Well, a long story I couldn’t do it shorter.
All my best, Samantha.

What I want to identify with involves so much more than just my sexuality, it holds my legacy of faith, value, trust and who I want to be. 
     Thread Starter

July 17, 2020 9:54 pm  #30

Re: 15 years in my MOM with Dutchman

okay Sam, that is a bit different to how I imagined you.  and it is a lot of answer, thank you.

I also am a bit different to how you are imagining.

I will respond soon, all the best, Lily


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