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July 12, 2020 12:27 pm  #1


How do I make a choice?

Hello. I dont know where to post this. I am a younger man who married a woman who has now come out as a nonbinary transgender person. If that doesn't make sense think of someone like David Bowie, where you cant really tell what gender they are. They want to have top surgery and take testosterone in order to lower their voice but not have a penis etc. This isn't new to me, Ive known for many months and maybe years if I'm actually honest with myself. 

My issue is that Im having trouble accepting it. My spouse tells me that they are just changing their body to reflect what they feel on the inside. This makes sense to me, I want them to be happy, I want them to be who they really are. I can accept the removing of breasts and I can somewhat accept the going on testosterone but there is something else that I cant put my finger on. Something that bothers me and I dont know what it is. But this change isnt like losing weight or getting a haircut. It is more than the sum of its parts.

My spouse thinks that if I cant accept them now, then I will never be able to. I am unsure if we are going to remain married in the future, and my spouse is questioning the same thing. And that is devastating we've always had such a good relationship. It isn't perfect and we certainly have problems but before this there were was never really a time when I questioned who I would be spending my life with. But I'm hurting them by not being able to accept them, I don't want to hurt the person I love. Would they be better off without me? Or would I be better off without them?

People say to look at what you want your life to look like in 5 years. I cant imagine my life in 5 years or even 1 year. There just isn't anything there. How do I make what is essentially the biggest decision of my life?

 

July 12, 2020 8:45 pm  #2


Re: How do I make a choice?

Hi,

You don't tell us what your sexuality is.  Assuming you are straight then there you go - like all us straight spouses we turn up here talking about our spouse, worried about them, admit we're hurting like hell but you know we're still focussed on what our spouse wants rather than our own needs.

Do you really want to remain married to someone you call they?

Don't you want a girl?

Don't you like her breasts?

imo, it matters.  it matters a lot if your marriage partner fits with you or not.  And we haven't even begun to poke a stick at the fact that you only found out about this after you were married.  Believe me, they has known they is different to straight for a long time.  And what a pretzel that it is about they won't stay with you unless you can accept the changes - what pressure!

It hurts, it hurts like hell, it gets worse with time.  And you are young.  I know love does what it does to you and all that but sometimes you have to save yourself first however much you love a person you need you in one piece.  my suggestion to you is that you say no.  No to remaining married to they.  And act on it firmly.  They are likely to flip flop around the place when you stand firm, but stay true to yourself, act steadfastly now.   Best chance of salvaging a friendship with they in the long run.   

wishing you all the best, Lily

 

July 12, 2020 10:05 pm  #3


Re: How do I make a choice?

reusablepear wrote:

................. How do I make what is essentially the biggest decision of my life?

 

You give yourself as much time as you need to process this. You find somebody to talk to about this, someone who'll keep your confidence. You must have questions, and your wife can answer just a few of them, you need a soundingboard

And you can ask questions, rant, rave, read, tell more of your story in a Forum where members know what you're feeling. Welcome 

Elle


KIA KAHA                       
 

July 13, 2020 5:03 am  #4


Re: How do I make a choice?

I am a woman who was married to a man who decided he was "a man in a woman's body" and wanted to have his testicles removed and take cross sex hormones.  I am also a recently retired college professor who experienced the rise of the non-binary "they/them" wave.

Here are a couple of things to consider as you make your decision:

Your partner seems to approach altering her body through surgery and the taking of the cross-sex hormone testosterone as cosmetic procedures with limited and benign effect, as if lowering one's voice were like dying one's hair.  When a female takes testosterone, it has far-reaching and lasting effects, and some of these are far from benign.  It's not just a lower voice and a beard, it's male pattern baldness, an atrophied uterus--and more.  Removing her breasts will more than likely result in no sensation in her nipples and remaining breast tissue.  And I haven't even started to address the behavioral, mental, and personality changes.  Your partner will live a medicalized existence, dependent on her providers for maintenance, monitoring, and surgical interventions.

The necessity of tending to these on-onging physical changes and crises is just one way that, if you stay, your life will be dominated by All Things Non-Binary and Trans.  For most of us, whether we are heterosexual or homosexual, our sexuality is simply one reference point in who we are; we get on with our lives, and our focus is on our jobs, our families, our degrees, our houses, etc.  In my experience both as a person who married someone who came out to me as trans and as a college professor interacting with non-binary and trans students, for those who identify as non-binary and trans, their identity becomes their entire point of reference and a fixation; everything else pales besides it, and that includes their partners. Their social circle shrinks down to include only other non-binary/trans folks.  Any already-existing"issues" in your marriage will be magnified, and new ones will be added.  

  I'd like to point out that although the "issue," as you call it, has been defined by your partner as you accepting your partner's changes, one could just as easily say that the "issue" here is that your partner, who wants to alter the most basic facts about herself--her femaleness, her body, her gender identity--seems to think that wanting to make these fundamental changes in herself should not change anything about your relationship.  You are torn up over hurting "them."  Is your spouse torn up by hurting you?  

  It's good that you are questioning what you want, and trying to picture what a future with your spouse will be like if you stay married.  That you can't imagine what your life will be like in five years, or even one, makes me think that you have already made a decision about what you want.

Last edited by OutofHisCloset (July 13, 2020 11:03 am)

 

July 13, 2020 8:51 am  #5


Re: How do I make a choice?

reusablepear wrote:

My spouse thinks that if I cant accept them now, then I will never be able to. I am unsure if we are going to remain married in the future, and my spouse is questioning the same thing. And that is devastating we've always had such a good relationship. It isn't perfect and we certainly have problems but before this there were was never really a time when I questioned who I would be spending my life with. But I'm hurting them by not being able to accept them, I don't want to hurt the person I love. Would they be better off without me? Or would I be better off without them?

People say to look at what you want your life to look like in 5 years. I cant imagine my life in 5 years or even 1 year. There just isn't anything there. How do I make what is essentially the biggest decision of my life?

Welcome to the forum.  I'm so sorry you are going through this struggle with your spouse.   You've been offered incredible advice already, but I want to add a few things to consider. 

From what I read, your spouse identified and appeared as a woman when you got married, but is now transitioning to non-binary, meaning.. neither exactly a woman or a man.  You are having trouble accepting this change and now needing to make a terrible decision as to whether or not your marriage can remain successful.   Does this sum it up?

Your spouse wants to live in the way they feel is true to them.  But in doing this they are now expecting you to live in a way that isn't true to you.  A person's sexual identity includes both how they identify AND what they are outwardly attracted to.  Your spouse is changing how they identify and because of this, they need you to change what you are attracted to.  Their change to what they believe is authentic to them is requiring you to change to something that is not authentic to you.  This isn't fair to you.  

You made a choice to marry a woman and enter into a heterosexual relationship.  You did not chose a mixed orientation or any other form of relationship when you got married, so you most likely do not want that now.  

I'm sure you love your spouse, but that does not mean you can find permanent happiness and a healthy relationship.  I think you would agree that a healthy relationship requires two authentic people.. two happy and fulfilled people.  

If you can find an authentic desire for a non-binary spouse and you feel that will make you happy permanently, then I think you can make the marriage work.  But if you don't feel comfortable, I suggest that perhaps you will both be happier in the long run if you split up and find partners who match your true authentic self and desires. 


 

Last edited by phoenix (July 13, 2020 8:52 am)


-Formerly "Lostdad" - I now embrace the username "phoenix" because my former life ended in flames, but my new life will be spectacular. 

 
 

July 13, 2020 9:27 am  #6


Re: How do I make a choice?

lily wrote:

You don't tell us what your sexuality is.

Yes Im a straight male. My spouse was pansexual but is now asexual

lily wrote:

Do you really want to remain married to someone you call they?

Ive been calling them 'they' for a long time. It doesnt really bother me anymore. It will be extremely difficult to tell my parents and Im quite worried about that, but that isnt pressing at this moment.

lily wrote:

Don't you want a girl?

If my spouse was a girl that would be ideal. Ultimately I am a straight man and do find women attractive. But I love my spouse and I decided I wanted to spend my life with them and that hasn't really changed. Sex is such a minuscule part of our existence. It occupies a fraction of our time alive.

Does it honestly really matter in the end? Im pretty sure at the end of our lives we wont think back on all the great sex we had and rather on the happy moments we spent with the people who share our lives.

We dont have intercourse but we do other sexual things. It wasnt always that way and that makes it confusing to deal with. But I am happy that we are physical, its nice and makes things seem better.

lily wrote:

Don't you like her breasts?

Sure but its not my body so its wrong of me to ask them to keep them.

lily wrote:

And we haven't even begun to poke a stick at the fact that you only found out about this after you were married.  Believe me, they has known they is different to straight for a long time.  And what a pretzel that it is about they won't stay with you unless you can accept the changes - what pressure!

If Im honest with myself I think I knew of this before I was married. They told me something along these lines and I got upset. They got upset about upseting me, felt bad, and then they didnt talk about it again. I stuck my head in the sand and assumed that it just wasnt an issue anymore. I was ignorant, and I was ignorant by choice. I chose to not think about it and hoped it would go away or that it would change into something else. Im very good at that, but thats an entirely seperate issue.

I was equally complicit in not addressing the issue. They are not all to blame.

longwayhome wrote:

How does your partner treat you?

They treat me well. Yes they do some things I dont like and sometimes get mad about cleaning the house and other trivial issues, but I think thats every relationship.

But on the whole they are a very considerate person who is very sweet, very nice, and thinks of me before themselves. We had a good relationship, we're very cuddly and affectionate and most of the time Im very happy with how things have turned out.

OutofHisCloset wrote:

Your partner seems to approach altering her body through surgery and the taking of the cross-sex hormone testosterone as cosmetic procedures with limited and benign effect, as if lowering one's voice were like dying one's hair.  When a female takes testosterone, it has far-reaching and lasting effects, and some of these are far from benign.  It's not just a lower voice and a beard, it's male pattern baldness, an atrophied uterus--and more.  Removing her breasts will more than likely result in no sensation in her nipples and remaining breast tissue.  And I haven't even started to address the behavioral, mental, and personality changes.  Your partner will live a medicalized existence, dependent on her providers for maintenance, monitoring, and surgical interventions.

Yes my spouse does explain what they want as being essentially a cosmetic procedure. What are the behavioral, mental, and personality changes youre talking about? Are you still with your spouse? What changes did they experience in terms of behavior and personality, when they took testosterone?

OutofHisCloset wrote:

Is your spouse torn up by hurting you?

Yes. Undeniably. They are extremely upset about hurting me. They often feel like a bad person and a freak, they feel like they are ruining my life. They cry about it a lot and they are not a crier.

Many times I feel like I am ruining their lives by making it more difficult to be who they really are.

OutofHisCloset wrote:

It's good that you are questioning what you want, and trying to picture what a future with your spouse will be like if you stay married.  That you can't imagine what your life will be like in five years, or even one, makes me think that you have already made a decision about what you want.

Let me clarify. I cannot picture my life in the future with or without my spouse. I am not saying I dont want to be with them or that I want to be with them. I am saying besides all of this situation I have a number of other issues that prevent me from seeing what my life will be like.

Last edited by reusablepear (July 14, 2020 4:49 pm)

     Thread Starter
 

July 13, 2020 11:25 am  #7


Re: How do I make a choice?

I was married to a man.  I am no longer married to him. 
Here's an overview of the effects of taking testosterone:
https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/masculinizing-hormone-therapy/about/pac-20385099

 

July 13, 2020 5:39 pm  #8


Re: How do I make a choice?

okay so confirmed - you are a straight male.  Youngish.  And sex is a minuscule part of living?  well who's been stealing your testosterone is the question I want to ask.  But I know, I did the same thing - let my ex tell me sex wasn't that important.  and you're young - it's like well you've still got time - sex never stops mattering right to the end, there would be no human race without it and that is a measure of how important it feels.  it matters more not less as you age.

You love her so much you have gone down the rabbit hole for her.  You are literally prepared to put yourself under the bus but what you don't see is that the bus of her theyness will keep on rolling even while you are left squashed on the road.

here's another mental exercise that can help you find your bearings - try and remember what you were like before you met her, before you married her.  Find a friend from those days and talk to them, ask them what you were like.  

I did that, admittedly decades down the road - I was shocked at how I had lost confidence and even remembered myself as very quiet but here is an old friend refuting that, reminding me how entertaining and far reaching our conversations had been.

Looking back I was able to see how quickly it happened, that I lost my confidence - I reckon it took about two or three weeks of sleeping with a gay man to lose my feminine self esteem.  And it wasn't til I was in my 40's that I started the big fight back to restore it.

I never saw it at the time though, too busy loving him, and trusting him implicitly, to take stock of the toll he was taking on me.

It's not clear from your posts if your spouse is intersex or transgender or is it possible to be both, idk, but whatever exactly they are it is profoundly sex-deep different to your own make up.  And that matters.  In terms of marriage it really really does.  To both of you.  I mean if it didn't matter to they why the hormones, why the surgery, both of which are towards giving they more masculine characteristics and why isn't they talking about instituting a life-long love-affirming friendship with you rather than saying you have to accept these changes while still staying married. 

Whether she goes ahead with the changes is her business obviously as far as everyone else is concerned, but it's very much your business as her husband and it affects your family too.

 

July 13, 2020 7:44 pm  #9


Re: How do I make a choice?

lily wrote:

  it matters more not less as you age.

Hi reusablepear,

I was in a long-term marriage to a gay man in denial. He stopped having sex with me a year into our marriage. I agree with Lily that sex is very important in a marriage. Married people form a bond with sex that leads to deeper intimacy and love as the years go on. I complained to my GIDXH I felt we had not bonded as a couple after a few years. I had to catch myself from calling him my brother. The word husband didn't come naturally. 

here's another mental exercise that can help you find your bearings - try and remember what you were like before you met her, before you married her.  Find a friend from those days and talk to them, ask them what you were like. 
.

This is a great exercise, Lily. I know I was slim, wore makeup, fixed my hair, wore feminine clothing, calm, and confident when I met him. Slowly, I gained weight, wore terrible clothing, became very anxious and angry. I was afraid of cheating on him. I blended into the wall. I felt like I wanted to die.

I turned myself around because I didn't want to die. I began daily meditation practices that were traditional within my religion to calm down and feel better..  Long story short, I became that person before marriage within 18 months. I found the confidence and fortitude to leave. I don't know how it happened, but it did.

I know that this is a confusing turn of events for both of you. I am so sorry this is happening.  You love your spouse and want them to be their authentic self. That's an admirable thing.  It will be difficult for them and for you if you desire a woman a few years after your spouse's surgery. It may be good to foresee some of the consequences such as your desiring a female.  That desire may never leave you. Will that hurt your spouse?

If you are not sure, it may be good to take a breather. Separate from them for a bit. It will give you a chance to calm your mind and reach a rational decision that puts your needs first while honoring their journey.

I hope things go well for both of you. Please post here as often as you need.


 

Last edited by MJM017 (July 13, 2020 7:45 pm)


No - It's not too late. It's not hopeless. Even there, there's something I can do. I just have to find the will. Ikiru (1952), film directed by Akira Kurosawa 
 

July 14, 2020 1:30 pm  #10


Re: How do I make a choice?

Reusablepear,

I see how you used the pronoun "they" to refer to your wife.

Im not going to say it's wrong but I will say it must be hard..you are outnumbered in the relationship.

I know my bed itself got crowded, metaphorically speaking, with my GX texting her girlfriend all night long ..i could not sleep...it was like,i was demeaned or invisible...outnumbered and alone..  I hope "they" is not discounting you and making you feel insignificant...because that hurts...our spouses are not supposed to hurt us.  Promises were made, vows were taken...


"For we walk by faith, not by sight .."  2Corinthians 5:7
 

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