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August 3, 2019 12:49 am  #1


What to tell teen and YA children; outing vs making ourselves small?

A few months ago, there was a post and replies on talking with our children about what has happened in the marriage.  I'd really appreciate another discussion!

I'd especially like advice on talking with older teens and young adult children. I am just really in fits about this, back and forth day to day, and it is keeping me stuck.

Can anyone suggest actual words or "scripts" that say enough without saying too much?

Here are things I've been worrying about:

I want my children to trust me.  I do not want to pretend anymore, especially with them.  I have always been open and honest with them, until this past 14 mos.
-If I "out" their dad to them, will this mean they will NOT trust me?  Especially if they have difficulties of their own, like if one was assaulted, or was considering coming out themselves?
-If I do not tell them the truth, they will probably hear it elsewhere
-If I do not tell them the truth, they may create a "wrong" story, and then when they find out, it will be disorienting
-They might already have figured things out, or have heard details of conversations, or actually seen evidence of things
-If I say it was a destructive marriage, will this hurt their relationships with their father?
-Because their dad seems nice, then if I say it was destructive, will they not believe me?  And will they believe their dad's version of things instead?

I want my children to be able to have a better chance of having healthy intimate relationships of their own in the future
-So I feel they really need to know the circumstances (more of the abusive cycles than even the sexuality questions)

I hope my children will want to stay reasonably connected to me over the years.

I don't think it's right for siblings to have to keep secrets from each other.

After reading the Crane Wife story, I realized I do not want to "make myself small" by being forced to stay silent.  I don't really care what other people think--but I really really care what my children think.

I am worried that what I say--my husband will use this against me in legal proceedings. He might say I have alienated his children from him, for example.

Has anyone had success with a kind of middle path?  Like, you just say what actions your spouse did.  But you don't have to label your spouse.

Thoughts?
 

 

August 3, 2019 1:40 am  #2


Re: What to tell teen and YA children; outing vs making ourselves small?

I had been full of angst about telling my 22 and 24 yo children about this situation. They had already left home and I can't remember exactly what it was that initiated it...probably the kettle of my sadness, anger and confusion boiling over at last! and being self-aware that it was time.
It was early in the morning, we'd had another argument that had gone nowhere probably, and I rang my son who lived in the same city and said I needed him to come to me right then, before work. The tone of my voice told him it was important. Then I messaged my daughter who lived in another town and asked her to Skype with her brother and I.
When we were both in the same room, so to speak, I broke down and told them their father was wanting to explore his sexuality with men. They both cried too...didn't ask too many questions though.
This was 2 years ago

Last edited by Ellexoh_nz (August 3, 2019 1:45 am)


KIA KAHA                       
 

August 3, 2019 7:13 am  #3


Re: What to tell teen and YA children; outing vs making ourselves small?

     First off, I think it's important to re-frame the idea that in telling the truth about what is going on in your life you are "outing" their father.  We often feel the pressure either from them specifically or the culture generally--the very term "outing"--to keep their secret so they can go on living their secret lives, which renders us complicit in this secret, a secrecy that although they may claim is protective, is in fact damaging.  It is damaging to us, because it isolates us from others and leaves us vulnerable to their manipulation; it is damaging to them because it enables denial and the psychological effects of lying to the self and others.  
   The idea that it is their secret and therefore only their choice of when to tell, if at all, is damaging to all straight spouses because at base it says that our lives and our values are subordinate to and ought to be sacrificed to their secret lives and their "right" to live them.  (As I said to my ex at one point, "You don't get to determine what I can say about my own life.")  But that secret is not exclusively theirs; the fact that they are married to us means that we, along with them, are living in their closet along with them, through no choice of our own, and we have as much right to self-determination as they do.  We don't tell to damage or hurt them; we don't tell for any reason to do with them at all (including a reason like "for their own good").  We tell for us and our health, to live our values of honesty, and because we believe that human relations thrive on honesty and openness, and not on lying, deception, and secrecy, and those are the qualities by which we wish to live our own lives.
     If they are upset by this, it's an upset of their own making.  We are in this predicament not by our own choice, but by choices they made for us, knowing they weren't straight, and keeping this information from us.  (OMOTF, you have written about this before, about how your husband withheld knowledge from you that you needed to make your own choices about how you would live your life.)

   After giving this question about what to tell our children a lot of thought over the past three years, after having made mistakes of my own in approaching this task and doing it, and after seeing a number of discussions of this point on the forum, I have come to the following conclusions:

   One, broaching the subject with your closeted spouse opens you up to a lot of bargaining, rage, and pressure.  For many of our spouses, secrecy and the closet are their highest motivating force, and they will work very hard to prevent any action of ours which cracks open that door.  They will rage, threaten, weep, make promises,  and otherwise seek to keep us from doing so.  So for me, the conclusion is that with a closeted spouse this should be a decision we make on our own, and only after we have told our young adult and teenage children do we inform our spouses.  An alternative to this, used by someone on the forum, would be to tell your spouse that she or he has a certain period of time to do so, and after that time period has passed, if the spouse has not told the children, you will.  This strategy may, however, give the spouse the opportunity to badmouth you to your children.

I also think the best approach when disclosing the truth of our marriages to our children is to simply give the facts, without editorializing, tailored for the age of the children.  Your children, as teens and young adults, have reached the age when you can tell the truth: "Your father is engaged in, and has engaged in, sexual activity with men, and has hidden this from me for years." If you have evidence, you tell them that, and offer to show it to them if they want to see it in order to believe you are telling the truth (if your husband has been good at hiding, they may have no suspicions and what you are telling them may seem far-fetched).  If you have not yet decided what your own course of action will be, you make that clear, too: "I am still working out what course of action I will take, but it's important that you know the truth, as our lives here at home have been and will be disrupted by these facts."  Assure them you love them and will do your best to do right by them in are and have been trying circumstances.

   In my opinion, you stick to information only, and don't editorialize in any way.  You are careful not to say anything that can seem like trying to get them on your side, or attacking their other parent.  This precept would mean, practically, it might be very difficult to tell them "it's been destructive" without it seeming like an attack on their father.  I'd say that although you're absolutely right that they need to understand the cycles of destruction, that conversation is likely to be better left for later.  Just the information about their father's sexuality is likely to be more than enough in that initial conversation, and giving them the opportunity to speak and ask questions at that stage is important, too, and some people here have told their children with a therapist present.

   I, too, felt the pull to honesty with my son, 26 at the time of my ex's disclosure to me and 29 at the time I left, especially when I decided, after living in my ex's closet for three years, to leave and initiate divorce proceedings, and I told my ex I wanted to have an honest relationship with my child and would be telling him the truth about why we were splitting.  Telling my ex opened me up to a stunning display of rage (yelling and physical intimidation), and self-justification and attack ("you don't care about him if you're going to tell him something that may damage him").  As a result, I ended up compromising, and in my initial conversation with my son went with "Dad and I are splitting up.  We're happier apart." (This is why I suggest not bringing a closeted spouse into the conversation about telling, at least not with older children.)  
   Later, after telling my ex I was going to say the following, I told our son, "Look, people don't just split up after 35 years of marriage and jeopardize their retirement years because they're "happier apart."  There's an issue with your dad that is his, and it's his to tell you. He knows I'm telling you this, and you can ask him about it if you want to know.  But I already know, because he told me, that if you ask him he's going to say, "Some things are private."  And I left it at that.
    That was almost a year and a half ago.  Now I am worried that the information has reached him via social media from cousins, because I told my siblings, and I don't trust that they haven't told their children, and I have observed at least one instance when it appeared as if my son was heading off a conversation topic about a trans person in the media. 
    All of this further uncertainty and anxiety follows from not following through on my initial conviction that secrecy is damaging and the truth provides for the best way forward.

Last edited by OutofHisCloset (August 3, 2019 7:28 am)

 

August 3, 2019 7:28 am  #4


Re: What to tell teen and YA children; outing vs making ourselves small?

OOTF, Hope this perspective helps.... we don’t get a do- over on this, and I wish I’d done it differently. OOHC, you articulate clearly that it isn’t their story, it’s ours too, and we had no choice in creating it, and yet we need to own it without creating damage.  A tall order while one is absorbing the shock and figuring out how to divorce with minimal damage.

My children were 6 and 11 when ex came out in 12/13. We decided to divorce almost immediately.
We told the kids of the divorce  in April 14. My son (11 at the time)  was heartbroken; I don’t think my daughter understood what it meant. . My ex told my son  the reason that June. At the time I was still in shock and deferred who knew she was gay to her.  She then refused to tell my daughter even after many sleepovers with her partner with my kids home because she didn’t want my daughter to think it was abnormal. . (Something I never did until I remarried).  I finally had the discussion with my daughter this summer ( 5 years later). I think she knew but she does not seem to want to discuss it.

I’m a little disappointed in myself for waiting but the coparenting already had enough tension that I was concerned this would piss off the ex. And I didn’t want more grief.

OOTF You are considering all the factors... the truth builds trust but you’ve got your ex’s reactions to deal with.


OOHC
You are correct.  The truth without judgement or editorializing.  Also, our emotional relationship with our children post disclosure, is ours to manage alone, not with the other parent. I too tried to negotiate with my ex when to disclose TGT to my daughter and it backfired for the reasons below.

My son felt the story was only his mother’s to tell and was angry at me for telling my daughter. Also, both children learned from this that it’s ok to keep secrets in the family.  Something I’m working hard now to undo before they leave home.  ( Ironically, my ex prides herself on her transparency).

After dealing with all this bs over the years I’ve realized it’s my story and hers and I’ve adopted a philosophy articulated well by Jordan Petersen:

Just tell the truth using precise language and let the day run its course. No matter the pain, denial is more expensive and painful.


OOTF The trust of your children is the most important priority.

Unless your attorney advises you that there are serious risks to disclosure follow your instinct on this.

All the best,

ADSJ

Last edited by a_dads_straight_journey (August 3, 2019 8:40 am)

 

August 4, 2019 8:48 am  #5


Re: What to tell teen and YA children; outing vs making ourselves small?

LXO, OOHC, ADSJ:  Thank you so much for these replies.  It is helpful to see that we all share the same angst--and that there is no perfect way.  We are really being put into a no win situation here, and as OOHC points out, it is a situation our spouses have created. 

OOHC thank you for reminding me of some of my own words. And I really appreciated you dissecting the problem of who owns the story, and how damaging it is to be forced to live a secret life not in harmony with our own values--and to have our own values used against us ("you are not kind)" when we try to live those values.  Thanks also for the reminder of not negotiating this with the spouse--how that too is dangerous.  Also, the detail of your son likely hearing things from other people--this was significant to me.

LXO-Thanks for telling your story--the detail of asking your daughter in urgency to come quickly is especially powerful to me.

ADSJ--thanks for sharing the differences between your childrens' responses even years later.  And thanks for encouraging me personally to act on my personal sense of what is best.

OOHC, ADSJ:  your stories showing your regrets helped--not so much even regrets at how things are difficult, but your regret at not fully acting on your instincts. Even though you did follow some instincts.  When our basic values are in conflict with each other--what to do?  And probably there will be hard things after.  And this again is a part of the abuse of the situation--to require us to rip ourselves apart internally to protect their secret. 
 

Last edited by OnMyOwnTwoFeet (August 4, 2019 8:51 am)

     Thread Starter
 

August 4, 2019 9:07 am  #6


Re: What to tell teen and YA children; outing vs making ourselves small?

I decided to be brutally honest with my kids, ages 6, 9 and 12. They have openly gay teachers at school, and my brother is gay and happily married. I told them that “mommy has decided that she would like to live with x.”  They were angry, but the truth is the best thing in my book.

I felt very strongly about avoiding the “mommy and daddy grew apart” nonsense because that’s not what happened. It’s also a complete non-reason because it’s a result of, rather than the cause of, the divorce. It’s hiding the underlying reason. I also don’t want them to think that I could “grow apart” from them.

Additionally, my STBXW has lied and gasllit them, too. They deserve the truth, and I’m glad that I stuck to that. This situation sucks, but the truth will help make things right.  I don’t want to get into a “who’s your favorite parent?” contest, but the kids have really come in close to me. And that’s what they need right now - to know that they have at least one parent who has their back and who they can trust with their lives. I’m honored to be in that role.

Good luck. You just have to do what’s right for you and your kids.

 

August 6, 2019 11:01 am  #7


Re: What to tell teen and YA children; outing vs making ourselves small?

Blue Bear, I agree with you. I don't see other options, how could my smart kid get the information like "look your mum needs to live apart, it's not your fault and anyone elses". Our counselor, we've been together with my wife yesterday told that he doesn't need to know all the details because he is a teenager and should naturally find his own identity, not to start doing this because of mother's transformation. That also makes sense, but i myself won't be happy if i were told something like that. Why is mum going out? Is there something wrong, that i need to know? Are you fighting or is there something wrong at home, that she should leave. If she has problems, why we don't help her, like we did before? 

Last edited by morpheus (August 10, 2019 1:37 pm)

 

August 6, 2019 1:33 pm  #8


Re: What to tell teen and YA children; outing vs making ourselves small?

It really surprises me how often counsellors say don't tell your teenagers the truth they need to find their identity on their own - whatever their orientation, wouldn't knowing the truth about their parents help?  

 

August 6, 2019 4:38 pm  #9


Re: What to tell teen and YA children; outing vs making ourselves small?

No kids here, but clearly remember being one. The absolute truth is the best. Kids know when they aren't getting the whole story.  I know I always did.


 


No - It's not too late. It's not hopeless. Even there, there's something I can do. I just have to find the will. Ikiru (1952), film directed by Akira Kurosawa 
 

August 6, 2019 10:36 pm  #10


Re: What to tell teen and YA children; outing vs making ourselves small?

Truth is always the best if the children are of an age to understand. We all deserve truth!  It is difficult hearing & accepting the truth, but not nearly as difficult as being lied to.

 

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