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June 14, 2019 9:51 am  #1


Chump Lady sums it all up...

I’ll paraphrase a post  on Chump Lady that sums up the whole lifelong SS experience.

“ I gave you my A-game in exchange for a sh*t sandwich”.

Every experience from discovery to managing the inconvenience and frustration of single or Co-parenting to financial and emotional distress and wasted or lost opportunities fits into that  simple phrase. 

ADSJ

 

June 14, 2019 7:19 pm  #2


Re: Chump Lady sums it all up...

I liked Chump Lady when I went and read her, the stuff about cheaters and liars is so clear and she along with Chump Nation validate our being chumps and I like that very much, but I think she missed the mark in her response to Blue Bear.  She goes a cheater is a cheater and doesn't really address the gay thing other than to just about excuse it with the use of the fluid word - that got me.   

I can relate to dodging the gay issue, but isn't that fluid thing a gay thing?  so many of the comments I read on Blue Bear's letter said a cheater is a cheater and it doesn't matter if they're gay.

It does matter.  It matters a hell of a lot and we all know it.

That's all, I just wanted to say that.  But to take it a bit further then one of the difficulties straight spouses have is are they gay or aren't they - they cheated, they lied, they had an affair, it can be worked through, we're a married couple but if they are gay then that is a problem we can never resolve.  so while the gay spouse is confusing the issue - it's childhood abuse, I'm just a bit bi, I only had an affair because you were mean to me - the straight spouse is left without a clear path in their life.

The way I see it, we have this instinct in marriage when there is an affair - clean out the hearth so you can light a fresh fire.  Once we give up trying to accomplish that with our gay spouses then there is healing - and the last thing we need is to have the gay thing swept under the carpet.  But largely it is.

so I think this forum is valuable because it doesn't.

you can say it made me feel ugh and not be thought a homophobe.  you're still recognised as being the gay-friendly person you always were.

"I gave you my A-game in exchange for a sh*t sandwich" - that's what happened to me.  It doesn't make me sh*t.  It was my ex who made me feel like that.  Grateful to have this time away from him now.

all the best everyone, Lily


 

Last edited by lily (June 14, 2019 7:27 pm)

 

June 15, 2019 8:29 am  #3


Re: Chump Lady sums it all up...

lily wrote:

It does matter.  It matters a hell of a lot and we all know it.

That's all, I just wanted to say that.  But to take it a bit further then one of the difficulties straight spouses have is are they gay or aren't they - they cheated, they lied, they had an affair, it can be worked through, we're a married couple but if they are gay then that is a problem we can never resolve.  so while the gay spouse is confusing the issue - it's childhood abuse, I'm just a bit bi, I only had an affair because you were mean to me - the straight spouse is left without a clear path in their life.

The way I see it, we have this instinct in marriage when there is an affair - clean out the hearth so you can light a fresh fire.  Once we give up trying to accomplish that with our gay spouses then there is healing - and the last thing we need is to have the gay thing swept under the carpet.  But largely it is.


 

Lily, I thought the same thing. I enjoy reading Chump Lady, but for those of us here, it is different. 

I posted something similar on a betrayal trauma group I am in. While many of them hope for and work towards recovery with their spouse, for us, there really is no recovery. (As individuals, yes, of course, there is, but for our marriage, no.) Because our spouses will NEVER be attracted to us or love us as we long to be loved and as we deserve to be loved. There will never be that recommitment to life as "man and wife." I also don't think they feel the betrayal of being deceived into a marriage that would never work because of those things either. For me anyway, that has been my deepest wound. That my spouse had so little regard for me that he would lie and lead me into a marriage as man and wife knowing he really longed to be wife and wife.

So yes, cheating is cheating, but for us, it really does go deeper.

 

June 15, 2019 12:15 pm  #4


Re: Chump Lady sums it all up...

I agree with you both, Lily and Stronger.  I don't think people who've not been in our shoes can imagine the experience very well, with its particular and additional characteristics.  A person who is cheated on by their hetero spouse may experience the agony of comparing him/herself with the affair partner (what does s/he have that I don't?), but they aren't also subject to the rejection of us because of our sexual orientation.  My experience with my ex, who decided he was transgendered and disavowed any and all aspects of life he considered "male," left me questioning myself in ways a hetero spouse's rejection never would have. I ended up questioning my gender presentation, my status as a woman, my sexual orientation. And as you point out, Stronger, there is no reconciliation that would ever be possible.  When your husband disavows his maleness and begins to live as if he were a woman, you become a transwidow.  So the gay/trans thing absolutely matters, in my experience. 
    I do think, however, that many of those posters who made a point of insisting that the gay thing wasn't important were probably trying to signal that there is nothing inherently wrong in being gay.  I'd agree with that, but it doesn't also then follow that the sexual orientation of a partner who cheats is irrelevant to the experience.  That's why I think it's important for us to speak the truth about what happens to us and what it's like.  (And I thought about posting something like my first paragraph here, but didn't.)
    I appreciate Chump Lady's her point of view because she doesn't encourage futile hopes; but she also doesn't understand the nuances of our situation.  That's why I visit both Chump Lady AND SSN.

Last edited by OutofHisCloset (June 15, 2019 2:15 pm)

 

June 15, 2019 3:31 pm  #5


Re: Chump Lady sums it all up...

Delete post.

Last edited by Lynne (April 25, 2020 11:24 am)

 

June 15, 2019 7:13 pm  #6


Re: Chump Lady sums it all up...

thanks.

Yes, I think TGT also affects our future.  How we are going to recover.  I don't think it helps to sweep the fact that we have been believing and therefore relating to a gay husband as if they were straight under the carpet, better to look it in the face.

all the tiny little lies we absorbed, not just from the blame-shifting, not just verbally, but also from the sigh you heard, the lack of excitement or response you got - a million and one tiny little lies stemming from the belief they are your lover.

For people married to financial cheaters, one day they wake up to find their bank account is stripped.  For those of us married to sexual identity cheaters, it is our sense of self that is stripped. 

It's like painting, you need the shadows as well as the light to create form.  Recognising your ex was not your lover makes it easier to believe in not just yourself but also a future lover.

 

 

June 15, 2019 10:51 pm  #7


Re: Chump Lady sums it all up...

Deleted

Last edited by MJM017 (July 11, 2021 7:13 pm)


No - It's not too late. It's not hopeless. Even there, there's something I can do. I just have to find the will. Ikiru (1952), film directed by Akira Kurosawa 
 

June 16, 2019 5:22 am  #8


Re: Chump Lady sums it all up...

Hi MJM, no you're right on topic!  pretty much sums up my ex too - a gay actor playing the role of my straight husband.  I don't think I will ever forget those first few days as I realised he was standing behind the persona I interacted with and had been for our entire married life.  omg.  disgusting.

when we met he was being invited to join a group of gay actors, on the one hand, or on the other hand, he could pretend he wasn't gay altogether, life in the closet, good-looking girl as the wallpaper, and that's what he chose.  Hot sex and lots of fun acting on stage or a show for one - making me miserable too.  what an awful choice to make.  no wonder there's so much misery in the world!

yeah, it's unfair, undeserved and hurts an awful lot.

wishing you all the best, Lily

 

June 16, 2019 6:14 am  #9


Re: Chump Lady sums it all up...

We lived near one of the most gay friendly cities as well. Some people just can’t live their truth and I believe that’s a personality disorder. 

Ironically my ex thought honesty and transparency was one of her biggest strengths. 30 years together - 27 married. Two kids 6 and 11 when she left.

You are fortunate you did not have children with him. I have 10 more years of detente with my ex before they are launched. Regarding your family, he did leave the proverbial turd in the punch bowl when he left, and that is sad and really sucks.  It’s YOUR family.

MJM, I don’t know how it works in your family but if there’s one or two people that everyone trusts and you do as well perhaps you give them the story and let them be the source of the story in your family.

All the best....

ADSJ

Last edited by a_dads_straight_journey (June 16, 2019 6:34 am)

     Thread Starter
 

June 16, 2019 7:21 am  #10


Re: Chump Lady sums it all up...

I agree with both major points we're making here:
 
1. Chump Lady is awesome. I have gained so much clarity from reading her posts, her archives, and the comments from Chump Nation. So many similarities to my experiences. Especially the gaslighting, blameshifting, deceit, hidden life, devaluing, difficulty facing reality, etc. Am so glad to have found her site.
 
2. Regarding gay spouses, Chump Lady and Chump Nation do not always see the differences, Some of CN do--some have been betrayed by their spouses for same sex partners, and some also just "get it."
 
Thursday's Chump Lady post and discussion was hugely triggering for me. I felt so angry. I think this was partly because the OP and CN comments got at things just like my experience, with the no-holds-barred CN snark and anger. At the same time, I was also triggered because some of the comments glossed over and seemed to contradict my experience.
 
Here on SSN, there are different kinds of pain and betrayal. But one of the biggest similarities we share is the distortion of reality from the foundation of the relationship. The level of distortion, the length of it, the level of cruel behaviors, the level of denial even in the face of facts, the amount the spouse wants to draw us into their fantasies--those may differ, but still the false reality is huge, and it leads to damage in foundational ways, aven as we aren’t aware of what’s happening.
 
"What is cheating" is one question. "What is betrayal" is another. "How this has destroyed me" is all connected.
 
Sexual assault is violent not because of sex, but because of how it takes one of the most intimate things that should bond two people’s souls and turns it into a weapon of control. A systemic pattern of withholding sex and affection is a kind of sexual betrayal, a kind of sexual assault, a kind of violent infidelity toward an intimate partner. Similarly, a pattern of pushing away and even criticizing an intimate partner’s loving actions—this is also a kind of sexual betrayal, an emotionally violent infidelity. Using someone’s body without loving it is wrong. Using an intimate partner’s body without loving it—as a tool, as a front, as a worker, as means to have children—is also wrong, is also an act of physical (and sexual) violence. When perpetrated in an intimate relationship, it is sexual betrayal.
It is another aspect of the thing I posted the other day about the “non” or the “un” being the thing to pay attention to. The lack of action is still an action—but hard to see, hard to define, hard to hold the other person accountable, hard to say “this happened! And it was horrible! And part of the horror was that I could not see it!”
 
Chump Lady emphasizes all the decisions it takes to actually cheat, to emphasize how much of a betrayal it is.  And this question of decisions is also related to the agony of the straight spouse: how much did my betrayer know they were doing this? Can I hold them accountable? Does anyone else think they are accountable? That challenge of trying to find a reality check for our experiences is part of the horror too: “is my real experience of betrayal even real?”
 
When people have strict definitions of what “cheating” is, or when they privilege cheating as the most significant form of betrayal--including sexual betrayal, they don't understand how deep it goes for straight spouses.

Yet on ChumpLady, I learned to recognize a lot of the tactics used to protect secrets. So seeing all those secret-protecting tactics from my husband has helped me to know there is something there and see the hidden picture.
 

 

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