Sean, thank you so much for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully, not just to me, but everyone here who is at varying stages of, what I can only describe as a complete mind/heart fuck.

The vodka/gin analogy makes total sense. Funny that because his favourite drink is whiskey, of which he gets drunk on and passes out every weekend. He used to justify his drinking as being due to hating a job he had for 15 years, then it was because of physical pain. He now has a new job he loves, and no pain. Funnily enough the drinking didn’t change.

Reading your words “he’s gay” was a powerful moment. All the signs over the years that in and of themselves just pointed to a depressed man with issues (and which I blamed myself for, not to say I haven’t thrown bombs in our marriage either) has finally culminated in this place I now find myself. Everything has become very straight forward. And it doesn’t even matter to me if he admits it or not. Strangely enough I feel that whether he does no longer concerns me. I concern me. There will be time enough for me to sift through the pain of accepting so little - of selling myself short. But there is time for that further down the track.

I look back at our disjointed and disconnected marriage where I always attempted to “talk and work things out” with him making minimal effort to ever make anything better for us even though he would tell people great stories about how I always stuck by him and pulled him into the present. Fuck I worked hard!  Typical co-dependant MO from a GID man. Although I suspect he hasn’t even been honest with himself as unlike me, he has never been a lover of Truth. About 15 years ago when TGT wasn’t even on the radar, I tried to explain to him what it is like being with him. I told him it was like trying to reach him through a barrier or membrane. I could never pinpoint what was off. He commiserated with me and apologised but did nothing to change that.
It didn’t matter what I did nothing seemed to reach him. Every time we had sex, back when he could sometimes get an erection, usually with viagra. it was as though he had no clue what to do. It baffled me. Of course now it makes perfect sense. Damn me for not listening to those alarm bells clanging in my body and head!

I am so relieved to have moved past the bargaining and pleading stage, but I will say to those who are still in this place, it took me 5 years to get here. It can’t be forced. It can’t be fabricated. You will know when you are done. When you no longer care what is going on for them and twisting yourself into a pretzel to understand.

You will turn that love and care inward. And you will be ok.

Hey Sean,

I have so much to respond to in your post but I’m going to comment on only some of it now and then digest the rest. Plus I’m using my phone which doesn’t encourage quite the flow that writing on a laptop does.

I realised as I was reading your words that I may be leaping ahead of myself when in fact there is a huge amount of pain I need to be prepared for. And I haven’t actually left him yet. Maybe I’ve been girding my loins, so to speak, to build the courage to go. It still all feels a little surreal tbh and I’ve been riding the high of knowing I was right, but I can feel that bravado slowly evaporating.

I realise too that I’ve always been terrible at taking care of myself (which u allude to about Co-dependants, of which I am one having had to be a parent to my own mentally unwell fragile mother as a child and young adult). I have this really bad habit of soldiering on and figuring out things for myself. I need to take your advice and get some support with this and not try to do it alone. I’ve been keeping all this secret for so long that the thought of saying it out loud to someone other than my husband absolutely terrifies me. I guess it means it’s really real. Your words are setting me on that path but it’s a different thing to read them, than to tell someone.

Your words at the end of your message about not ever having made your wife feel desirable, hit me particularly hard. I am beginning to feel the first pangs of grief about how I wasted the best years of my face, figure and well, my peak awesomeness,  on a man who, although has loved me in his own way, never really desired ME unless I was using props or dressed in a certain way (and yes, pegging,strap ons were introduced and I felt guilty for not liking it). I guess that gives me some idea about the antipathy he may have felt at having straight sex with me. Neither of us could fake what we really wanted for long. Which is why any sex has all but dried up. It’s too painful for both of us.

Thank you for your time Sean. And also for your honesty even if it stings to read. As the saying goes “Better an ugly truth, than a pretty lie”.


More later Sean.

Last edited by PennyD (October 3, 2018 1:52 am)

Thank you for sharing Penny. I applaud you for telling your best friend. That took a lot of courage and must have been a HUGE relief. I'd suggest reaching out to the Straight Spouse Network to find a "sponsor" in your area. By "sponsor" I mean someone you can confide in during this challenging part of your journey. With regards to your husband's behaviour, gay-in-denial (narcissistic) husbands like me are highly attuned to their wife's emotions. I reckon this skill comes from a lifetime of hiding our homosexuality. You mentioned "love bombing" which I believe is a narcissist's way of bringing their partners back into a relationship. It's a form of honeymoon phase when the GID husband will pretend to be the man of your dreams for a few weeks - with flowers, attempts at sex, and attention for example. But once you're back in the relationship, he'll be right back on the porn, Grindr, and hook ups. So I'd be ready for some love bombing if he's sensed you're about the leave the relationship. 

In response to your question: 

1. I remember you writing about how you looked at gay porn for 10 years (I think that’s right) before you acted on it.

I reckon it was more like 20 years before I actually had sex with another guy. In fact, porn became an addiction, although I haven't watched porn in almost four years.  

2. Can you tell me what you were telling yourself about living this secretive double life.

That's a very good question. I guess I thought of porn as safe. It was a discreet, risk-free way of living out most of my gay fantasies, while still married to my wife. But I was lying to myself. Straight men don't masturbate to gay porn. Straight men don't get off on gay erotica. But gay men do. Porn has rapidly become one of the most common addictions among both gay and straight men. Why? Because anyone with an internet connection or smartphone can access porn 24/7. Studies have confirmed that long-term porn viewing also results in erectile dysfunction, depression, and insomnia. From a neurochemical standpoint, porn is actually more stimulating and addictive than cocaine! But I'm getting off track. Watching gay porn without acting on it was my own form of a highly f*cked up bargaining stage. Like most closeted men, I thought that I wasn't gay unless I had sex with another man. 

3. Or what did you tell yourself that gave you permission to do this? Also, what was it that flicked the switch between looking/fantasising and acting?

It was a Faustian bargain: I wrongly thought I could safely and discreetly watch gay porn while keeping my family intact. What a fool I was! As for 'flicking the switch', you can only look at so many delicious chocolate cakes in the bakery window before eventually devouring one. I reckon this is why so many gay men, whether young or old, go through a slut phase. Sex, sexuality, and our sexual urges are in the deepest and most animal regions of our brains. (This is why you just can't 'pray the gay away'.) Once I'd had sex with a man for the first time, two things happened: first, I could no longer have 'fake' sex with my former wife; and second, all I thought about was having sex with other men so I pursued it with a certain reckless abandon. 

I applaud you for speaking with your friend, posting here, and asking questions. Please continue to focus on yourself though. And by yourself I mean posting here (perhaps on your own thread), sharing with friends/family, and eventually reaching out to the Straight Spouse Network. If you've made the decision to separate/divorce, your husband is no longer your responsibility. This is hard to accept after years or decades of trying to make sexless and emotionally abusive relationships work. It's hard to walk away from so much effort. But walk away you must. You no longer need to carry his burdens nor try to 'fix' a broken and often severely mentally damaged man. And if he's no longer your responsibility, then there is little to gain from greater insight into the murky brain of the gay-in-denial man, nor his sexual/porn habits. I hope that doesn't sting too much my friend. My point is you need to focus 100% on you and your healing. 

Be well! 

Last edited by Séan (October 6, 2018 1:43 am)

Sean and all - thank you all for for sharing and providing so much insight.  I am in a terrible place these days and could really use some advice.  I have been in a relationship for 4 years with a kind, loving man who has just a few things that I find to be “off” and have led me here.  We are engaged to be married next year and I just don’t want to end up in a sexless marriage saying “I ignored those red flags so now I have to live with it”.

Our sex life has never been lively - sex is rare and mundane.  Always in our bed, always with the TV on (which he watches) - always starts with me going down on him and then he flips me over we have sex “doggie style”.  No foreplay for me ever.  When I cry and complain about this (maybe 4 or 5 times) he will try, but it’s like he’s exploring a foriegn planet and is scared what his hand may encounter.  He went down on me once when we first met.

He travels for work (in an all-male industry) and has very good male friends that he hunts and fishes with on overnight trips.  Two of these friends in particular are suspicious to me.  He just gushes about them - yet he can’t verbally express any praise or emotion to me ( he can write very sweet notes to me and is very affectionate with hugs and cuddling).

I did one time tell him that I suspected that he may be gay or bisexual and he was flabbergasted.  He said that was preposterous, told me how he was groped by a few gay men in college (he went to art school) and how terrible it was for him, and talked to me about how difficult intimacy has always been for him. 

I know he watches porn, but always straight porn.  I have snooped and stalked for years (I have deep-rooted trust issues!) and have never found any hard evidence of any actual physical acts with men or women.

He did grow up with very non-traditional religious practices at home.  He also had 3 younger sisters and a very strict father, so I’m not sure if he was scolded for looking at the female body? 

At this point I really don’t know if he’s into guys or if I’m just a crazy commitment-phobe who is searching for something to be wrong with him before we lock it down legally.  Anybody have any thoughts???

Thank you everyone for posting. In reply: 

1. Penny: "Hey there Sean, thank you for your awesome response to my post and the gentle reminder of the importance of taking care of me. It’s a hard thing for me to do. And I can feel myself getting caught up in his explanations and earnest conversations with me. I’ve updated on my thread and a lot has happened. Any thoughts, observations welcome if you have time." 

Yes please do continue focusing on yourself my friend. After decades of supporting emotionally damaged and gay-in-denial husbands, I reckon straight spouses have a hard time focusing on the most important person: themselves! I don't venture outside of this thread fairly often but feel free to come back here and post your questions.

2. Confused wrote: "I am in a terrible place these days and could really use some advice.  I have been in a relationship for 4 years with a kind, loving man who has just a few things that I find to be “off” and have led me here.  We are engaged to be married next year and I just don’t want to end up in a sexless marriage saying “I ignored those red flags so now I have to live with it”.

Got it. I applaud your decision to seek answers before getting married. 

3. Our sex life has never been lively - sex is rare and mundane.  Always in our bed, always with the TV on (which he watches) - always starts with me going down on him and then he flips me over we have sex “doggie style”.  No foreplay for me ever.  When I cry and complain about this (maybe 4 or 5 times) he will try, but it’s like he’s exploring a foreign planet and is scared what his hand may encounter.  He went down on me once when we first met.

This is a red flag. Most gay/straight marriages are similarly sexless or "mundane" as you shared. There is one place a man can't fake interest: the bedroom. I had ZERO interest in having sex with my (then) wife because I'm not at all attracted to women. It manifested itself in squirmy hugs, dry kissing, and closing my eyes as tightly as possible during sex because I was thinking of men. If your partner isn't interested in women's bodies, there are two possibilities: 1. He's asexual; or 2. He's gay. 

4. He travels for work (in an all-male industry) and has very good male friends that he hunts and fishes with on overnight trips.  Two of these friends in particular are suspicious to me.  He just gushes about them - yet he can’t verbally express any praise or emotion to me ( he can write very sweet notes to me and is very affectionate with hugs and cuddling).

If you've read my previous posts, constant travel for work and husband-like relationships with other men are also red flags. 

5. I did one time tell him that I suspected that he may be gay or bisexual and he was flabbergasted.  He said that was preposterous, told me how he was groped by a few gay men in college (he went to art school) and how terrible it was for him, and talked to me about how difficult intimacy has always been for him. 

This too is a red flag. I'd read up on narcissism because he used a very common tactic when you very justifiably confronted him: he blame shifted. He made you feel guilty for asking "are you gay" because it brought up being groped (probably a lie anyway) and then said having sex (with you) was scary. Now you can't discuss either your sex like nor his apparent closeted sexuality without "hurting" him. I'm not a mental health professional, but he sounds like a gay-in-denial narcissist. 

6. I know he watches porn, but always straight porn.  I have snooped and stalked for years (I have deep-rooted trust issues!) and have never found any hard evidence of any actual physical acts with men or women. He did grow up with very non-traditional religious practices at home.  He also had 3 younger sisters and a very strict father, so I’m not sure if he was scolded for looking at the female body? 

That fact that you're playing detective and posting here both mean there is very high probability he's gay. 

7. At this point I really don’t know if he’s into guys or if I’m just a crazy commitment-phobe who is searching for something to be wrong with him before we lock it down legally.  Anybody have any thoughts??? 

Let me respond by quoting you. You wrote that he is a very "kind, loving man" and then shared that his pathetic attempts at sex reduce you to tears. You now suspect that he's gay and might be cheating on you with one or more of his "fishing" buddies. (This is very much like the relationship in "Brokeback Mountain.") Before getting married, I'd suggest writing down a relationship constitution of sorts by finishing the following:

Love for me means...
A happy marriage for me means...
A good husband is...

This will ensure that you're focusing on what YOU want rather than your current situation. In just a short post, you've shared that your sex life (or lack thereof) is making you very unhappy; you suspect your fiancé is gay; and that he may be cheating on you with a "fishing" buddy. With so many red flags, I wouldn't recommend getting married.  Lately, I've come to believe that many gay/straight relationships are strikingly similar to narcissist/co-dependent relationships. I'd suggest reading up on them before tying the knot. I hope that helps. 

8. Vicky wrote: Hi Sean, I'm not on here too often and I am just reading your response now.I'll disagree on a few points. 

Good! As I've shared before, I'm not a mental health professional, so my comments are often wrong or simply don't apply to your own relationship.  

9. I'm not grudgingly agreeing he might be bi or gay.  I have accepted he's not straight but I don't know what he is until when or if he tells me. 

Got it. I have two follow up questions:

Question 1: What do you believe today?
Question 2: What if he never tells you? 

10. I'm not trying to control his sexuality through rules.  He's able to watch porn if he wants gay and straight, and I've seen him watch both.  What I have said is that any cheating with any gender is not tolerated.  If he wants to have sex with any one else than we need to discuss it first and figure out what to do.  I don't think that's controlling anything, that's telling him where my boundary is, cross it and hell shall break loose. 

Understood! 

11. I didn't insist on therapy, he did and I quit (I fucking hated it).  Initially I did try to push him to talk about it and tell me something but I don't anymore because it's not going to happen. Our relationship was very sexual until after we had kids and then it dropped off a lot, it's gotten back to what I would think is normal for a couple with little kids (once, sometimes twice a week). 

Again my comments/opinions don't apply to everyone. If you're content with the way things are going in your relationship, then I'm happy for you both.

12. Even though we don't outright discuss TGT things have been going a lot better for us now that this is more out in the open than it used to be.I think he's relaxed a lot and several people have told me he seems a lot happier than he used to so it's even apparent to other people he's changed.

I'm glad things have improved...for both of you. Although I don't think it's healthy for anyone in a gay/straight or bi-straight relationship to continue avoiding the "pink elephant in the room." If this is the biggest issue in your relationship, I reckon you should be able to discuss it openly, honestly, and without fear. Sadly, most gay-in-denial husbands use anger to keep their straight wives from even discussing his possible homosexuality (or bisexuality...see below).  

13. Being honest with you prior to my discovery he was controlling, emotionally abusive and kept me from making friends and made it hard for me to see my family.  I honestly didn't realize it until all this came out and I started seeking help from others (anonymously online) at the same time seeing a counsellor on my own and she and other people started pointing things out to me.  

I've just had a quick look at your earlier posts. All I can write is good for you Vicky: solo counselling; setting boundaries; and making a real change in your relationship. Well done my friend. 

14. I've since asserted myself and laid down the boundaries of what I won't tolerate.  NO more interfering with my friendships and family or monopolizing my time or guilting me about anything I do for myself.  It's honestly been a really great last few years for me.

Wonderful. 

15. There is literally nothing binding me to this relationship other than our kids, I choose to stay.  I have my own income and could support myself and kids and I was prepared to do so if he didn't make some serious changes.  But I don't want to just yet.  If things change from this current state of happiness than.I might change my mind but I'm good with where we are right now. 

You've hit the nail on the head here Vicky. A good relationship is one that works for you. And no one, not even me, can tell you what to think, do, or feel. Looking back on your early posts, your husband sounded very much like the abusive gay-in-denial husbands I read about here every day. While we can disagree on just about everything, I think we'd agree that your relationship got better when you fully faced reality ("Holy sh*t he might be gay"), talked to a mental health professional about it, and set some boundaries. I'd also like to point out that unlike most straight wives here, you're happy with your sex life whereas most straight spouses are not. Which leads us to... 

16. On a side note I've noticed it seems like you skip bisexuality.  If I had to take a guess I would guess that he identifies as bi.  Its too much to explain why I think this, but it's not wishful thinking.

I apologise if if seems like I'm avoiding the question of bisexuality. I've written about bisexuality from time to time in previous posts. While I believe bisexuals and bisexuality both exist - as I'm a firm believer in the sexual 'spectrum' - I myself am 100% gay, never claimed to be bisexual, and don't have any close friends who identify as bi. As such, I'm just trying to avoid holding forth a subject I know absolutely nothing about. But please feel free to share your thoughts and experiences here regarding your husband's bisexuality. Unlike most of the straight wives posting here, your husband clearly enjoys having sex with you which would suggest he's attracted to both women and men.

Thanks for posting everyone. If I haven't answered your questions or you'd like to comment on something I've written, please feel free to post below. Be well!    

Last edited by Sean (October 13, 2018 7:30 am)