Thanks everyone for posting. My previous post was a little over-the-top I admit. I do sincerely hope that Gary and his wife find happiness...either together or individually. When I first started posting here, many of you rightfully put me through the wringer. And why? Because I came with all of the platitudes, excuses, and projections so many of you had suffered through. Like Gary, my first posts didn't pass the "bullsh*t" test with many of you and I'm much better for it. So when I perform surgery on a fellow gay husband, my intent is nothing but love and compassion. What's I find fascinatingly repulsive about fellow gay-in-denial husbands is how similar we all are. And by "similar" I mean:

​1. Lying: Truly believing we love our wives.
​2. Abusing: Actually hating our wives for staying with us because we don't believe we deserve your love.  
​3. Self-harm: Degrading ourselves through meaningless hookups and/or countless hours of porn.

I can't hate Gary nor any other gay-in-denial husband because we actually believe our bullsh*t stories. And he truly believes what he wrote in those posts. Why? Because we've spent our entire lives lying, hiding, and manipulating others to stay closeted. And after decades of practice, we get pretty darn good at it.

​My post wasn't designed to anger Gary nor offend him. But I did want it to jar him out of his false narrative, sort of like getting smacked upside the head with a half-frozen carp. His reply, if he replies, should confirm whether I hit the mark or missed completely. 

Last edited by Sean (February 22, 2018 7:24 pm)

Thanks everyone for sharing. Here are a few more nuggets from gay Gary. I do applaud him for coming back because he's slowly revealing more details. As Luke said to Vader, "There's good in you." But he's clearly in very very deep denial. And his deflections are almost Clinton-esque he's so good. When dealing with narcissists, or perhaps gay-in-denial narcissists, the thing that gives us away is the subtle blame shift. A narcissist is never wrong, period. Or when we're wrong, we have to be in control of being wrong. It's always your fault or someone/something else and we admit we're wrong but in a way that reinforces how much better we are than most. To wit:

3.  I don't have any sex toys.  However, many years ago my wife and I had some simple vibrators that we played with together.  They were fun but then I guess they got old or broke down.  I don't see a problem with this as long as both are into it.  If that darn kid would move out so my wife and I could be empty-nesters I'd think about getting us some more but I don't want the daughter to hear buzzing sounds coming from our room!  

I added the italics. I'd love to know the difference between a "simple" vibrator and "super-duper-bad-*ss-naughty-boy-vibrator." Notice what's missing. He starts by stating, "I don't have any sex toys" which means "I'm blameless." Then "my wife and I had" sex toys with the subtext of "well she wanted them as well." Then it's back to being such a good dad for not using them anymore to protect his daughter. I actually nodded my head when reading this but then thought, "Wait. No you're not a good dad for no longer asking your wife to use a strap-on. What the f*ck Gary!" The reality is probably a bit more grainy. I reckon it was more like: "I ordered so many vibrators that our wardrobe looked like a missile launch site. I ordered my wife to peg me with them and enjoyed it so much the noise scared our kids." Fascinating stuff. 

​4.  When my wife and I have sex, I do my best to enjoy her and only her.  I'll admit that sometimes I fail and gay thoughts seep into my brain but it isn't about anyone in particular.  I genuinely try to honor my wife's efforts at sex.  We don't do it very often but it does happen a few times per year.  ​The frequency is her choice-not mine, but I don't blame her or harass her about it.  I probably wouldn't get excited about making love to a lesbian of I were a straight man.  

​Wow. He's good and he truly believes what he's writing. The truth is more like: "We no longer have sex because clearly I don't enjoy having sex with women. It's a burden." But what he's doing here is gently blaming his wife for their lack of sex. "My wife's efforts at sex" which really means "she's terrible in bed to a point that I no longer want to have sex with her." And "it happens a few times a year" sounds about as sexy as a flu shot. Then the blame shift: "The frequency is her choice - not mine." And the "I'm such a good guy" with my favourite part: "I genuinely try to honor my wife's efforts at sex." I have no idea what the f*ck that means. Narc! 

5.  I don't talk about or go to bath houses or gay bars/clubs,  I live in a big city and in general I know the part of town where they are but I don't know anything specific about them.   I'm not quite sure what a hookup event is but I'm sure I don't do that either.  As I hope we've already established, I don't hookup with anyone.

​Hmmmmmm....bullsh*t. 

​6.  Pornography.  I am ashamed to say that I do look at porn.  It is infrequent and, yes, my wife knows that I do it on occasion.  She doesn't know the what, when, or where of it and I'm sure she doesn't want to know.  I know I shouldn't do it and it is disrespectful to my wife as well.  This problem cuts across men in all sexual orientations, not just gay men.  That isn't an excuse but we are human with human needs and frailty.  

​Again: admission ("yes I watch porn"); minimization ("not a lot"); blame shift ("all men do it"). For all the straight wives reading this, you've heard the same excuses when he's caught cheating with another man. "Yes I had sex with him, it was just one time, and lot's of straight men like to take it up the *ss...I read about that online." The biggest blame shift is "I was molested." When you hear the "I was molested" excuse, I reckon your marriage is on its last legs because that's always his Hail Mary of excuses. What's always missing is a genuine apology or full-blown honesty. In gay Gary's defence, it took me years to come out, truly accept my sexuality, and own my many mistakes.

​So what's my point? Gary's posts are like a case study in gay-in-denial narcissism so I'd encourage you to read them. This is what gay-in-denial narcissists always do: 

- Everything sounds so reasonable and true
​- It's never the gay husband's fault ("I want to have sex more often") 
​- It's often our straight wife's fault ("She never wants to have sex and sucks in bed anyway")
- We're always doing the best we can ("I try to honor her in bed") because we're such great guys after all
​- When admitting fault, we quickly shift blame or fall back on the image of caring husband or protective father

​My only rule for confronting your gay narcissist husband is....don't. You simply cannot win an argument with someone who has lived in a closet his entire life. As Gary has so clearly demonstrated, he lives in another, distorted, reality. When you discover that your husband is gay, you don't want him to be gay. But the facts don't lie. Let's focus on the facts gay Gary provided in his last post because they apply to most gay-in-denial men after the discovery period: 

​- Gary knows the gay village in his city: "I know that part of town." 
- Gary watches gay porn...a lot of gay porn. Straight men don't watch gay porn. 
- He and his wife have sex just a few times a year. This isn't normal. 
​- He indirectly blames her for not having sex more often when the true reason is he's not interested in hetero sex. Blaming her for his problem is wrong. 
​- Gary knows what Grindr (a gay sex app), bath houses, and sex parties are. 

When dealing with a gay-in-denial husband like Gary, I always urge the straight spouse to stop listening to his spin and just focus on the facts. It's also important to focus on their intent or ultimate goal. Like me just a few years ago, Gary is terrified of coming out of the closet. His only purpose in life is to remain closeted while appearing like the perfect straight husband/father. That's where this came from:  

"I am ashamed to say that I do look at porn.  It is infrequent and, yes, my wife knows that I do it on occasion.  She doesn't know the what, when, or where of it and I'm sure she doesn't want to know.  I know I shouldn't do it and it is disrespectful to my wife as well.  This problem cuts across men in all sexual orientations, not just gay men.  That isn't an excuse but we are human with human needs and frailty."

​Let me translate this statement from narclish (or narcississtic gay-in-denial English) to reality:

​"I hate myself for watching gay porn all these years. I really want to stop. I'm completely addicted to gay porn and I feel incredible shame when my wife catches me jerking off to gay porn, yet again. She caught me just before I posted here for the first time. I've watched so much porn that I'm now watching even more deviant porn (trannies, leather, BDSM). Next to porn, sex with my wife is an ordeal. We only f*ck a few times a year and even then, I have to shut my eyes and run porn movies in my head to get through it. She used to peg me with a vibrator but now refuses to so we have sex even less."   

​​Again poetic license but I reckon what I wrote above is the raw, honest version of Gary's original post. I hope that helps friends. And Gary please feel free to reach out to me via private message my friend. You are not alone. Be well!

Last edited by Sean (February 21, 2018 5:58 am)

Thanks for writing Cindys. I'm so very sorry you're suffering my friend. You deserve better. Please note that I'm not a mental health professional, so what I'm about to share is just my opinion. I'd recommend you see a therapist as soon as possible. So here goes. I reckon what's happening is that you're starting to doubt him and his version of the story. This is a good thing because you're getting to the truth. It's a form of detachment. In reply: 

1. He only had one sexual encounter with a man and it scared him so much, he felt like he was "raped." And he contracted hepatitis B from this one and only encounter with a man.  He did not like sex with a man found it revolting,   so he then discovered  "anal sex stimulation toys" and from then on only had "sex with myself." 

Lie. Ok so he's admitted to this one encounter and he's encouraged you to talk more about your sex life so ask him the following questions (make a list): 

a. When was the encounter (date, time, place)? 
b. Where did it take place? 
​c. How did he meet the man who "raped" him? 
​d. Describe the man? 

​Go through all of the details like a police report, write everything down, and then ask him if he wants to press charges against the man in question. It was rape after all. He'll lose his sh*t when you ask that. 

2. So my question is, How can he continue to look at gay porn if he found sex with a man revolting, and the only sex encounter with a man made him feel like he was raped?

​His logic is unraveling because it only makes sense to him. It's the same logic with "I was molested as a child by my (male) cousin." If you're traumatized by something, namely male-on-male sexual relations, why then seek it out or watch gay porn for hours online? These highly manipulative husbands are using tired anti-gay arguments: first, all gays are sex-starved child predators; second, we're not born gay but are rather intiated into the lifestyle by sex-starved predators. When two opposite-sex kids play doctor as children, it's normal and cute. But when two boys touch eachother it's vile, predatory, and damaging. I've NEVER heard a straight guy complain when some older woman seduced him as a teenager. It's a badge of honour. So to answer your question, what he's saying doesn't make sense because it doesn't. When we survive a plane crash, we spend our lives avoiding planes, not endlessly watching plane crash videos online. He's full of sh*t. 

3. He then tells me, "My "FIRST" sexual encounter with a man, you then decide if you like it and want to continue or not, and he did not like his sexual encounter with a man so never had another encounter just self stimulated with anal sex toys. I was stunned he did not even realize he outed himself my stating "FIRST" encounter. If this was true, wouldn't you state "Only" encounter. Does that make any sense?

​This is a lot like Gary's "simple vibrator" slip. Why not just say "vibrator"? By saying "first" clearly there was a second, third, and forth. You caught him in yet another lie. When Gary writes "simple" vibrator, clearly he knows his way around the sex toy section. I'm very impressed that you caught his slip. Bravo! 

4. He claims we needed to communicate more about our sex lives. 

Oy vey. If those were his exact words, namely the "we" then he's trying to shift/share the blame for your lack of sex. What he really wants is for all of this to be your fault. He's working up to, "Well I wouldn't be having dildo or man-on-man sex if you were thinner, more attractive, more agressive, less agressive, blah blah blah." It's a typical narcissist tactic. 

5. He is telling me how much he loves me. If I leave him he will turn into a drunk. That he has bore his soul to me, and told me everything. He has been truthful. He tells me now that his shit stain pants was because he had an accident. 

​The "drunk" thing is a threat so he's trying to manipulate you. "Stay with me or else!" And no he hasn't been truthful. Did you research the gay cruising parks near your house? You mentioned that he often runs, comes home with stains or needing to go to the bathroom. I reckon he's cruising near your house. I'd ask him this question: "What about the [name of gay sex park near your home]?" 

6. And this statement really pisses me , he says he was wondering maybe I never really loved him as much as I said I did!!!! 

​I'm sorry that he's playing mind games with you but I'm encouraged that you're feeling angry. Anger means that you're no longer believing his lies & bullsh*t.

​When a gay-in-denial husband senses that his wife is seriously considering divorce, that's when he really brings out the heavy artillery. That's when he'll say/do the following: 

​- I was raped/molested which is (strangely) why I now love d*ck (makes zero sense because if you almost drown, you won't go near the water)
​- He'll suddenly show an obsessive interest in hetero sex with his wife
- He'll be on his best behaviour, for a time, which means no more cheating, dinner together, affection etc. 
​- Lots of flowers, compliments, plans for future trips together and so on

Questions for you Cindys

​1. Are you getting professional help or support from close friends/family? 
​2. Did you contact the Straight Spouse Network for meetings/sponsors in your area? 
​3. What have you decided to do now?
​4. How can we as a community provide you with additional support? 

I look forward to hearing back from you. Be well! 

Last edited by Sean (February 21, 2018 8:46 am)

Sean,

Grateful to know you are picking up what I'm throwing down lol, to coin a phrase here.

While Gary comes across as exceedingly reasonable and trying to be a "good guy", I can't help but detect that the truth is not within his wifes grasp. Truth is needed in decision making. To have an understanding of what is real, what is a self (or partner) created fantasy, and where to go after that is the crux of the vast majority of posts on this board. Gary likes to think that he has provided his wife the truth while at the same time keeping her completely in the dark regarding both the machinations of his mind and the actions he has admitted to.

Gary is an interesting combination of mea culpa, wait I'm really okay, no I'm not okay I have issues, my issues are insignificant compared to other guys, I tell my wife the truth, no my wife doesn't know what I do at all, I'm a victim of "human frailty".

He's a fascinating read.

Sean
Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is a category of Cluster B Personalities, and they are generally not considered treatable. Do you really believe you are a recovering narc or do you think the GID person you once were may have been something else? I have appreciated your posts for nearly a year and your understanding of what happens in a straight/gay marriage is amazing. Especially when it comes to "translating" Gary's posts. Thanks for your insights.