Thank you for posting. Before answering RW's questions, I wanted to first address a recent post from a new member named "workingthru" who posted on a former thread of mine. She wrote:

1. Hi Sean, In my gut I am feeling my ex is gay but am glad you are here as a resource.

​I'm sorry that you're here my friend. I'd go with your gut on this one. If your intuition says "gay" and you're posting here, I reckon there is a 90% chance he's gay.

​2. We dated 5 months (I know, it's not as devastating as the other stories, but let me assure you, one can never be ok with the mental chaos and questions. This man slept next to me and never touched me. He kissed with his lips closed. he kissed me THREE TIMES total.

It sounds like you did the right thing breaking it off before marriage, children, buying a house etc.

3. He asked me for face cream on two occasions and would let his yorkie sleep in between us. After I finally broke up with him, he quietly moved on to another female completely different than me within two weeks. He of course denied it. And also made me feel like I was the reason we didnt work. "We should be further along" he said. I was in disbelief.

It sounds like he just blamed all of this on you. I'd read up on narcissism as we've learned over the past year that many gay in denial men also suffer from narcissistic personality disorder.

4. He is very good looking, and smart and grew up in the theater and as an actor. Do you think I am right to trust my instincts or am I the only person ever to have a bizarre encounter like this? He is 32 by the way. 

Whether gay or straight, clearly this man wasn't for you. So it doesn't really matter whether he likes boys, girls, or perhaps he's asexual. The most important thing is that you're safely out of a relationship that wasn't meeting your needs. Moreover, he didn't seem to believe there was anything wrong with his behaviour which is a huge red flag. Good people acknowledge your feelings and work to change. Toxic people deny your feelings, blame you, and refuse to accept responsibility. Don't pursue this man! Find someone who really loves you. I hope that helps my friend.

Now on to RW:

"Sean-Is there a way to email each other through here. I would really love to chat with you. I could use your advice. So many of these stories sound like mine.​ I send love and strength to you all. I am currently in the healing process myself."

​Thank you for posting RW, although I'm very sorry you're here. I'm afraid I don't give out my private email address. Feel free to send me another private message and just let me know if I should post my reply here or keep it confidential. It's up to you. I look forward to hearing from you.

Last edited by Sean (November 3, 2017 3:14 pm)

Hi workingthru. In response to your questions:

​1. Sean, when you were in the closet and working toward marriage, what were your major goals?

​I'd say the most important thing for me was remaining in the closet or perhaps continuing to deny my homosexuality. That's why I wanted to marry a woman. I guess I thought that by marrying a woman, it would somehow negate or perhaps nullify my sexual attraction to men.

2. When choosing a spouse, did you want someone because you wanted kids? Did you want someone to understand you? Someone to make you feel straight (I guess)?

Yes I wanted a traditional family which meant wife and children. I think we all want someone who understands us.

3. I read a thread about how sometimes closet gay men choose women who come from broken families or alcoholics because they are good at keeping secrets. I found that so interesting, fascinating and helpful. 

​​I'm not a mental health professional so I can only comment about my relationship. I personally believe my  gay/straight relationship was strikingly similar to a narcissist/co-dependent relationship. Near the end of my broken marriage, I was a black-belt narcissist. I was toxically self-centred, highly manipulative, and completely incapable of appreciating the emotions of others. I don't believe I was born an *sshole, but rather developed narcissistic personality disorder as a coping mechanism to hide my sexuality. As I got older, my narcissism worsened because it took even more effort to hide my sexuality: particularly my gay porn addiction and cheating. My ex-wife has an alcoholic father and manic-depressive mother. From the beginning, I believe she was initially attracted to my brokenness because I resembled her father on some level. I also believe that she knew I was gay but denied it, just as I did. I believe she also felt an overwhelming need to heal others. At one point in our relationship, she thought that she could heal others through prayer...but only once she had "suffered" through other's illnesses. As my homosexuality became harder to deny, she became more fervently religious and committed to healing me. So I agree with your statements. I think many gay/straight relationships resemble the same dynamics as narcissist/co-dependent in that we're just unnaturally drawn to each other.   

​4. My ex has jumped into a relationship with a younger girl who is first generation American (originally from Mexico) and he is so heavily involved in all family affairs... this includes many birthdays, family outings, etc. It seems so odd to be that close, that soon. It makes me feel like its yet another cover up or, that I'm nuts and he just is very happy (not in the closet). 

​Post breakup, I think it's perfectly normal to do a bit of (virtual) stalking via social media. But please don't spend the rest of your life focused on him, nor his new (fake) relationship. My question for you is: did your boyfriend move this quickly in your former relationship? The answer is probably yes. If he does indeed have gay-in-denial narcissistic personality disorder (or "NPD" or "narcs"), they are highly intelligent and intuitive people who very quickly become what their partners want to secure them in the relationship. It's also quite common for narcs to keep several potential new love interests on "hold" because they often need an out. Why? A gay-in-denial narc knows that he could eventually be caught with porn or cheating so he'll often groom a number of different love interests just in case. If your ex-boyfriend is indeed a gay-in-denial narc, he probably had a number of women waiting in the wings while he was with you.     

5. I would really like to know your mindset during that time and if anyone else has experienced this. 

​When I first started posting here, I claimed that I "loved" my ex-wife. That was a lie. I can now admit that I never did. Given my actions, clearly I loved my closet, my gay porn, and (later) my anonymous hookups more than I ever loved her. So my mindset was mostly one of denial. I told myself that I loved her because I couldn't find the courage to come out and be myself. Once I did come out, almost immediately my narcissism started to abate. Today I now believe that I'm a recovering narcissist.

​I think it's perfectly normal to take some time to reflect upon any relationship after a break up. But please don't spend too much time focusing on your ex-boyfriend as it might keep you stuck in a dead relationship rather than moving on and finding someone who truly loves you...rather than someone pretending to love you. So what's my point? If you are a co-dependent as my ex-wife was/is, you'll feel an overwhelming need to reach out to his current girlfriend to "warn" her or perhaps "protect" her. Please keep in mind that gay-in-denial men are mentally unstable and can be quite dangerous. So the best path is perhaps to stop the cyber-detective work, end all contact, and get on with your life. If you need more help getting over your gay/straight relationship, I'd suggest contacting the Straight Spouse Network to find out about meetings in your area, starting therapy, or perhaps joining Co-Dependent's Anonymous as they offer free phone-in meetings.

I hope that helps in some small way my friend. Be well.

Last edited by Sean (November 13, 2017 12:31 pm)

Thank you for writing SelfCompassion. I am so very sorry that you've found yourself here. I've read through your post on my thread and your original thread as well to get as much information as possible. In response to your post: 

1. I think my husband is gay/in denial. He says he's known since BEFORE the rape (step father) that he liked both men and women, recenlty. Opposite from most of our marriage where he INSISTED he always knew he was straight from infancy but forced to be gay by rape. He has come out to me recently that he is bi. I accepted as best I could but told him mostly I'm relieved to hear him admit what I already knew. In fact, this is more complicated bc while using drugs, he showed me this side of himself 10 years ago in our first year of marriage.

Question: how do you know your husband was a victim of sexual abuse? I'm asking because this isn't the first time I've read about gay-in-denial husbands (or "GIDHs") using abuse as a f*cked up way to explain their homosexuality to a caring straight spouse. I've posted about this before. If he has a history of lying, only told you about the abuse when you were about to leave the relationship, and hasn't given you (nor a therapist) many details, it's possible he made up the abuse in an attempt to keep you while explaining away his attraction to men.

2. I can't believe I thought nothing of it then. I was drugged out too. I thought it was just pure sex and nothing to do with intimate relationships, hard core mixed orientation porn only (if a woman was involved it was bisexual or lesbian, not hetero). Then he took it underground to Denial City. I was so confused what magic is this mental gymnastics he was doing to convince himself or me he was not gay. He was EXTREMELY sensitive about the word gay and gay bashed constantly.

​Extreme homophobia is a red flag, but I'm sure you're already aware of that.

3. I found porn, he denied it, raged at me (hypersensitivity, red flag #3). Everything I think most members here have heard or experienced regarding denial tactics I have experienced/lived through. His favorite, "It's my body. I'll do with it as I please!" etc., to straight up denial he was looking at men at all. I was tormented for 8 years, feeling ugly & like the bad guy in the relationship. I wasn't good enough. 

I'm so sorry you had to suffer through all of this, particularly that you weren't good enough.

4. Fast forward to Jan 2017, after long stent of dwindling, boring, predictable, cookie cutter, no orgasm for me sex, I insist on trauma therapy (dealing with past sex abuse) or I want a divorce. He complied. Now he has come out to me as Bi.

Most of us have been through some form of marriage counseling in an attempt to make our relationships work. That's quite common. Again I'd urge caution about believing his child abuse stories if he told you under the following circumstances: he has a history of lying; the abuse was only revealed after you'd seriously threatened to leave him and truly intended to d so; and there is no way for you to verify the story because the alleged abuser (in this case his stepfather) is dead or your husband has cut off contact with his family. GIDHs like I was can also suffer from narcissistic personality disorder (or "NPD"). If he suffers from NPD, he's likely a master manipulator, abuser, and pathological liar. (I read your post about physical abuse.) As I've shared before, the "I'm gay because I was molested/abused" stories are often the final manipulations of a gay husband desperate not to lose his "beard" because she's decided to leave.    

5. I have allowed the intense porn (we did it before with drugs, now clear headed), I have gone along with what he wants to look at (men, trannys, huge members preferred and guess what, ones that remind him of his step father) & relaxed all my restrictions (not that he complied, he just hid better). I buried the way I felt about it. I wanted to allow him to process his trauma. I thought his counselor was aware of his re-enacting his abuse. At least I begged him to tell her. This is my burning question - is he going to come out just gay (and not bi) a year from now and break my accepting heart?

I'm not a mental health professional but I'll give you my opinion. Run from this relationship like your hair is on fire. You're getting nothing from this man, he clearly doesn't want to change, and you're now considering an open marriage (his idea) to keep an abusive and lying husband in your home. There is about a 95% chance his abuse stories are also complete bullsh*t. So my question is: what are you getting out of this relationship?

6. I am listening to everything he says he wants. I'm hearing it evolve. In the first week on coming out bi, he expresses his excitement about our new life as bi couple and how much fun we were going to have now with other people. Other people!!! Wait, what? Slow down, Cowboy! He reluctantly agrees that it is wise to wait until after trauma therapy but still has all the free hook up sites accounts. He put no picture, doesn't pay for membership but is seeing "what's out there". He vacillated on this a few times and wanted to give in & do it now. Thank god, I said no. He made it clear he was ready but he won't act simply bc I am not. He needs my approval. my blessing. This is all so confusing.

He sounds emotionally straight but sexually gay. I don't believe for a minute this is his first rodeo. Given what you shared about his exchanges with cross dressers in parking lots, porn history, a lack of sex in your relationship, and now a strange familiarity with hook up site accounts, the evidence strongly suggests he's been cheating on you for years.

7. He says he would never, ever, ever pursue this without "my wife". Why am I a title right there and not my name, or "you"?? Is this another red flag? If I say no, he will drop the subject, he said. Really?? Of course, I asked the obvious question trying to expose the fuzzy logic but he was unable to answer adequately. Since he mostly freaks when talking about it, communication is broken/traumatic most of the time.

He's trying to have his rainbow cake and eat it too. Let me guess: does he want to have a threesome with another man? If yes, he would then appear to identify as bisexual but sounds very gay-in-denial to me. All of his evasions sound a lot like the gaslighting and doublespeak of a gay-in-denial narcissist.    

8. I have decided I would prepare for the worst, to leave, no matter what. Such a romantic vision floats in & out that I will hold his hand & lead him to his next gay relationship. Pure fantasy. And yes, he has had openly gay relationships in the past and I am his ONLY long-term relationship, ever. Three months was longest prior, so he says.

I think you've made a very wise decision to prepare for the worst. If he's admitted to previous gay long-term relationships, that's another big red flag.

9. My question is what is the likelihood that he really is gay, not bi? And, if I agree to a mixed orientation relationship, am I simply delaying the inevitable - a divorce? If so, will the opposite action, insisting on monogamy, help him to accept himself sooner? I know you can't answer such questions without knowing us, but what is the likelihood based on what I've said?  

Let's just forgot the gay thing for now. According to your previous posts, your husband is a lying and physically abusive man. Your sex life is unsatisfying and he's a terrible father to your 16-year-old son. You've been depressed and oftentimes bedridden for years. Now let's look at your present situation. He is obsessed with men with big d*cks, has opened up countless hook up site accounts, and wants to open up your marriage to have sex with men. The questions you need to ask yourself are:

​- Is this love? 
​- Is this relationship giving me the love I deserve?
​- If not, will this relationship ever get better?

​I'd start by writing a relationship constitution by finishing the following sentences:

Love for me means...
Marriage for me means...
The husband I deserve is ...
​
​Whether gay or straight, if your husband isn't meeting any of the things you described in the above three sentences and never will, then it's time to safely and methodically start planning your exit. I hope that helps my friend. Be well.   
 

Last edited by Sean (November 13, 2017 8:19 pm)

I feel your pain.  I found the hardest part is the knowledge that he will never truly understand the impact this has had on you.  You want your partner in life to have compassion for your suffering, especially when they caused it. 
I don’t think they are capable of it, at least not without tons of work and self reflection which few are willing to do.  It’s a lot of guilt to live with and most run from that responsibility at all costs.  They are adept at denial, projecting blame and playing the victim.

Last edited by majenco (November 17, 2017 9:47 am)

Ultimately it comes down to trust.  Can you trust him?  Will he be honest with you if he’s not honest with himself?  Do you want to spend the rest of your life wondering if he actually wants you or just needs you? 
I want to be cherished and desired, appreciated and loved.  I want to know these things in my heart.  When my husband looks at me I want to know that he desires me above all others and puts my needs first.  Without these things, what kind of marriage do I have?  What is the point if all motives need to be questioned?  Once you know that other desires exist and have existed all along while you were kept in the dark it changes how you feel about the entire relationship.  At least for me it does.  As it has been said many times before, take out the gay or bi aspect,  either he is capable of monogamy or he is not.

Last edited by majenco (December 13, 2017 5:47 pm)