OurPath Open Forum
This forum is for discussion of issues related to Mixed Orientation relationships only, that is when one partner is heterosexual (straight) and one is Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender or Questioning.
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- Kel
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Re: Isn’t commitment a choice?
I can't speak for everyone here, nor would I try. I have no idea what "queer positive" really means. I think the closest definition is "a person who is not homophobic, ie. who is comfortable with a person who is gay, lesbian, transexual, or transgendered." If that's queer positive, then I'm queer positive. If queer positive means that it should be completely fine that queer people marry straight people under false pretenses and then expect their partners to accommodate them when they come out, then no, I'm definitely not queer positive.
I have no issues with a couple who changes the definition or rules of their marriage, and they're both happy and fulfilled that way. Honestly, if that were the case, we'd rarely see those people online - because they'd be fine with the change in their marriage. But often, what we see is one partner revealing that they're gay (or bi, and want to sleep with both sexes now), and expecting their partner to be no only okay with that, but embrace it and support it. It doesn't usually work that way - because the straight partner was completely happy with being in an exclusive relationship with their spouse. And there are really only two realities here - you're either okay with your spouse not being exclusive, or you're not. I feel that when people truly want exclusivity but give in to non exclusivity, it's because they fear losing their spouse. And that's natural / normal. But it doesn't make it a good idea to compromise what your idea of marriage is (the one you two initially agreed upon and put vows towards) because the other person wants that. One person will always be sacrificing - and therefore it's difficult to have work. It's not just a matter of who compromises - it's a matter of how it makes them feel to make that particular sacrifice. Not all sacrifices are equal. Sacrificing monogamy can make a person feel unwanted, unloved, not cherished, unworthy, betrayed. Even if they don't initially know that.
If you think it'll work for you, then by all means - have at it! Just know that others here have been in your shoes, chosen that route, and then learned later that it wasn't what they thought it would be. Or that their boundaries weren't respected. So those people aren't necessarily going to recommend that route to anyone else that they want to spare pain. If there were people here who had the opposite experience - who had that work out positively, then I'm sure there would be more encouragement on the issue. Maybe those people do exist, but just find other forums more to their liking. Maybe they should come back and tell us how wonderfully it worked out, just so there would be different voices here. That really hasn't happened. So we're not sure if it never works out, or if they just never come back here. We have no idea which it is. So all we have is our own collective experience, and it's not been favorable when it comes to what your attempting to do.
If it works for you, we're all for it!
Kel
You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
- Duped
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Re: Isn’t commitment a choice?
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Last edited by Duped (October 6, 2019 4:54 am)
- DoonesburyFan
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Re: Isn’t commitment a choice?
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Duped wrote:
I think it speaks volumes that the overall experience you are hoping to find here doesn’t exist.
You should come to the parties I go to and sit down for dinner with my extended family. I have enough personal experience to know that what I’m describing here exists. I see it literally every day of my life. My job now is to learn how to make it work for me.
I would be interested to hear if your wife is also seeking help on online forums on how to support you in the same way you are describing you are doing for her. Because this is as big a thing for you as her.
She’s not a big fan of online groups, but she is reaching out to a community of people for support and guidance.
Peace.
- phoenix
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Re: Isn’t commitment a choice?
My partner and I were struggling with a sex life that had pretty much died, something that was frustrating me deeply. It was in the course of her exploring the reasons for her lack of desire that she was finally able to admit something to herself that she had been carrying since her teen years/early adulthood.
So I was correct about your original post. She didn't just realize instantly and tell you that very second (5 days ago) that she had a same sex attraction. She had in fact had a same-sex attraction since her teen years. This aligns with most of our stories.
How do you feel about this? One's sexuality is a pretty important factor in choosing a spouse right? You have an expectation or assumption of sexual compatibility from the person you chose to take vows to spend your life with. Do you feel that she should have been more honest with you before you got married? If so, then you understand why most of us say that we were lied to.
Repression and denial are powerful forces, all the more so in a society that still, with all the gains since Stonewall, that is profoundly homophobic and still largely built on normalizing a particular type of sexuality – straight – and a particular type of relationship, one in which each partner is expected to be literally everything to the other, including a perfect sexual fit. If people lie and cheat as they struggle to make sense of their desires, I can’t not see that as happening, to whatever degree, because the feelings they are experiencing are things that they have never been equipped to deal with because they’ve been taught that those feelings are WRONG – for some, to wrong to the point of putting their immortal soul at risk.
Repression and Denial are indeed powerful forces. I think it's fair and reasonable to state that many people with a same-sex attraction do repress and deny these feelings. They don't want to be different. They don't want to be a target of discrimination. They don't want to disappoint people around them who look down on LGBT people. So sure, they repress and they deny their feelings. They try to bury those feelings and try to develop some other feelings. So many times they chose a spouse of the opposite sex. So you have to wonder about their intention and motivation for getting married. Did they chose a spouse because they loved them completely and wanted to spend the rest of their life with them? Did they love their spouse enough to consider what was best for the spouse? Or was it just for themselves.. because that spouse would help them continue to look like a straight person?
How do you feel about your spouse's choice to marry you? Did she do it for the right reasons? Do you feel that maybe her motivation wasn't entirely pure love? Did she love you enough to consider that she couldn't make you happy for the rest of your life? Does the idea that she married you despite knowing that she was attracted to women and not men bother you? Does that feel like betrayal at all? If so, then you can understand why most of us here in this community feel betrayed.
Please know that I'm not trying to vilify your spouse. I'm glad you feel supportive of her and you love her so much that you are going to help her realize her true self. That's fantastic.. please don't lose that. I'm simply trying to help you understand why you see so many of us speak of the pain and bitterness that we feel. I want you to see that our emotional expressions are borne out of our personal experiences and that they are legitimate feelings.. not based on pre-disposition of discrimination or homophobia, but based on actual harm done to us by our selfish spouses.
I'm glad you are willing to make your wife the priority and do everything you can to help her be happy, even when it brings you hurt and pain. But why is it you that has to sacrifice the rest of your life for her benefit? Why shouldn't she? You both made vows of marriage, which typically involve monogamy and fidelity for life.. Why can't she keep that commitment? This is the point of this thread. Marriage vows are a commitment, but our spouses (not yours) chose to break that vow and we are talking in this thread about why that is unfair to us. Why does sexual attraction turmp every other part of a relationship and make them chose to leave us?
-Formerly "Lostdad" - I now embrace the username "phoenix" because my former life ended in flames, but my new life will be spectacular.
- Duped
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Re: Isn’t commitment a choice?
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Last edited by Duped (October 6, 2019 4:54 am)
- DoonesburyFan
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Re: Isn’t commitment a choice?
So I was correct about your original post. She didn't just realize instantly and tell you that very second (5 days ago) that she had a same sex attraction. She had in fact had a same-sex attraction since her teen years. This aligns with most of our stories. How do you feel about this? One's sexuality is a pretty important factor in choosing a spouse right? You have an expectation or assumption of sexual compatibility from the person you chose to take vows to spend your life with. Do you feel that she should have been more honest with you before you got married? If so, then you understand why most of us say that we were lied to.
Mostly I feel glad that she is finally able to take steps towards being the person she feels she should be. How could she have been honest with me if she couldn’t even be honest with herself? To think that would be possible is completely unreasonable.
How do you feel about your spouse's choice to marry you? Did she do it for the right reasons? Do you feel that maybe her motivation wasn't entirely pure love? Did she love you enough to consider that she couldn't make you happy for the rest of your life? Does the idea that she married you despite knowing that she was attracted to women and not men both you? Does that feel like betrayal at all? If so, then you can understand why most of us here in this community feel betrayed.
I am grateful for her choice to marry me, and my choice to marry her remains the best one I’ve ever made. Her intention in marrying me was to share a life with a person she loved deeply, and continues to love deeply. Love and sexual desire don’t always walk in lockstep. I would have felt far more betrayed if she could not trust me enough to think that we could no longer live, and grow together because she had finally come to accept something that was difficult to accept.
Please know that I'm not trying to vilify your spouse. I'm glad you feel supportive of her and you love her so much that you are going to help her realize her true self. That's fantastic.. please don't lose that. I'm simply trying to help you understand why you see so many of us speak of the pain and bitterness that we feel. I want you to see that our emotional expressions are born out of our personal experiences and that they are legitimate feelings.. not based on pre-disposition of discrimination or homophobia, but based on actual harm done to us by our selfish spouses.
I get that, and it makes me sad, mostly, to know that THIS is yet another product of our society’s ingrained homophobia: it makes people hurt the people they love because we allow no other way for them to deal with being who they are.
I'm glad you are willing to make your wife the priority and do everything you can to help her be happy, even when it brings you hurt and pain. But why is it you that has to sacrifice the rest of your life for her benefit? Why shouldn't she? You both made vows of marriage, which typically involve monogamy and fidelity for life.. Why can't she keep that commitment? This is the point of this thread. Marriage vows are a commitment, but our spouses (not yours) chose to break that vow and we are talking in this thread about why that is unfair to us. Why does sexual attraction turmp every other part of a relationship and make them chose to leave us?
My wife isn’t the priority. WE are the priority. I’m not making any sacrifices. We’re both adapting to a new reality. She can no longer keep the vows we made because she is no longer the person who made those vows; she, and I, have changed and grown. And we want to continue to do so, even though this is nowhere near where we thought we would be. But last I checked, life very rarely takes you where you want or expect to be. As for why sexual attraction plays such a big role in who we are and the relationships we create? I have no idea, and I’m not really interested in “whys” right now. I’m interested in “hows,” because we have the freedom and the power to live the lives we want with the cards we are dealt.
Then I'm very much confused why you are seeking guidance here and not from these happy people who are content with their partners not desiring them sexually. ... Support for you or for her?
Good question. Anonimity and objectivity. And, as I've said somewhere, we're each getting support for ourselves individually and as a couple.
Last edited by DoonesburyFan (November 7, 2017 2:28 pm)
Peace.
- lily
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Re: Isn’t commitment a choice?
Doonesburyfan - I bet you're a nice guy.
Denial doesn't mean don't know, it means not telling. Repression doesn't mean don't know, it means pushing it in the back of your mind.
To my mind you sound like you are being groomed - this is how to keep your lesbian wife happy. No mention of how to keep you happy, oh yes, friends with benefits... And that's going to give you love and intimacy? If your friend with benefits works out aren't you going to want to be with her?
So my suggestion is that you go and read what your wife's support group is saying. See how much is about themselves, how much is about managing their husbands and how much is caring about their husband's happiness. Just read it all Doonesburyfan. Then give yourself a hug because you are going to have to be the one who cares about the pain and confusion you're in and coming here was a good first step.
all the best, Lily.
Last edited by lily (November 7, 2017 3:36 pm)
- DoonesburyFan
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Re: Isn’t commitment a choice?
Lily -- This is the kind of sentiment that makes me think not that "coming here was a good first step," but that this community may not be the place for me. The idea that I am undergoing "grooming," a common thread I'm seeing in which relationships are percieved as a zero-sum game in which one partner's gains can only come at the cost of another's losses, the idea that other possibilites are destined not to work out and, especially, that some sort of lesbian conspiracy is working to convince my wife to become selfish and to consider me as an asset to be "managed" makes me think that there is a contingent of people here who are really invested in their anger, pain, bitterness and regret instead of looking for positive ways to learn and change and grow. I do not want a time machine to go back to when things were better. I do not want my partner to flip a switch and be who she used to be. I want to accept this new reality and find ways to grow and share and develop within it.
Thanks for taking the time to reply. Good luck in moving forward. It's not going to be easy, but nothing worth doing ever is.
Last edited by DoonesburyFan (November 7, 2017 3:51 pm)
Peace.
- phoenix
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Re: Isn’t commitment a choice?
My wife isn’t the priority. WE are the priority. I’m not making any sacrifices. We’re both adapting to a new reality.
Forgive me if I've misread, or made assumptions about what you are facing in the future. My understanding from what I read was that you have been having an unsatisfying sexual life in the past. Your wife has now admitted to you that she isn't sexually attracted to you and wants to find a female partner. Seems to me like you have already lost a big portion of the expectation you had in marriage for a sexual partner. Now you she is telling you that she no longer wants to have sex with you, so you will lose what sexual outlet you did have. Also she is saying that she wants to have another partner, so the expectation of monogamy that you vowed to one another will be gone as well.
I'm failing to understand how you can say you are not making sacrifices. It seems to me you are making very large sacrifices. I'm not sure what sacrifices she is making though? Are you planning to find a partner outside the marriage as well? If this is the case, then perhaps you are on equal ground and can have a mutually beneficial open marriage. If that is what you both agree to, and you each find partners willing to participate, then hopefully you can be happy.
Some of us are able to do that... most of us are not. I won't speak for everyone, but to me, sexuality belongs in the confines of marriage and that marriage requires monogamy, faithfulness, and honesty. So I couldn't do the open marriage thing. But I recognize that everyone has their own needs, emotions, religious beliefs, etc..
Best of luck to you as you continue to come to terms with the new reality. I hope you can remain so supportive and loving to your spouse. We should all have been so lucky as to have a partner like you.. someone who loved us so much that their primary concern was what was best for us rather than for themselves.
-Formerly "Lostdad" - I now embrace the username "phoenix" because my former life ended in flames, but my new life will be spectacular.
- Duped
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Re: Isn’t commitment a choice?
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Last edited by Duped (October 6, 2019 4:53 am)