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August 4, 2016 2:13 pm  #1


I think it's possible that my sister's husband may also be gay

Was talking to her last night about her body builder husband.  They've been unhappy for a number of years now, lartely because she busts her ass running a busy business and doing well while her husband brings in zero income to the family.  Right now he's working out 6 hours a day while she works full time and raises to little girls.

BIL has never given off overt signs of being gay, and I've known him for a long time now and wasn't concerned until about 2 years ago.  He seems to spend so much time with other body builders - accompanying them to their contests, posting about their amazing bodies on FB, showing his body off in nothing but a speedo on FB (my daughter is SO tired of it all - "EW! Doesn't he realize he has nieces and nephews on FB who don't want to see his body???").

Anyway, last night sis and I finally got the chance to talk alone.  And there is so much wrong in their relationship.  But at one point, I said, "I'm not so sure he's entirely straight, either", to which my unshocked sister said, "Me neither.  I think after we break up he's likely to go through an experimental phase".  Now, WHAT are the chances that in the five years, I've only just recently met ONE person in real life who's been through the gay spouse thing, and yet my sister could be another?  I mean, what's that say about our upbringing and our parenting model that we BOTH gravitated toward men that needed us to support them, and who wound up being gay?  What are the chances????

Kel


You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
 

August 6, 2016 6:29 pm  #2


Re: I think it's possible that my sister's husband may also be gay

Is it really the case, that "nobody's responding?" It's only been two days, right?

Perhaps because Kel's question, taken literally, is actually one with a factual answer, yet not one that everyone feels comfortable answering. Because it involves statistics. Not anything fancy; just simple; high-school or first-year college level. But few people are comfortable with using statistics.

Kel, your question "what are the odds?" should be answered in a couple of ways. Firstly, the odds are not particularly high that this would happen to both of you; on the other hand it isn't really an astounding rarity, that this would happen.

To calculate odds you multiply the chances of the component parts of the proposition. So let's look at yours. You both married

1) men that needed us to support them, and
2) who wound up being gay

The chances of the first condition, are approximately 100 percent. Men need women's support. I'm a strong, self-reliant, healthy male, successful in my field, socially, personally, etc, etc, etc. Yet my need for the caring, nurturing, supportive love of a good woman, is great, deep, profound. I think that about 95% of straight normal men fall into this same category. Not all will put it into these same words, or maybe even ever mention or think about it. But it is true.

I learned this from women, by the way - if you want references, just ask me.

So there is nothing remarkable, that you both married men who need support.

As for you both marrying men who "turned out gay", well, that is a little more complicated. The statistic I have read here and in other places most recently says that about 5% of people are gay (or "bi" which can fall into the same category for our purposes). So on the face of it, the chances of this happening to both you and your sister, would be 0.05 * 0.05 = 0.0025, or in other words, 1/4 of 1%. You might say, that's a vanishingly small chance. But this is not really the case.

The fact is that if you take enough married women (say 50 of them) and ask them how many are in similar situations (both married to gay guys, both married to alcoholics, both married to guys who X, Y, or Z), the chances are actually quite high, that many of the women will find that they share some "unusual" experience or situation.

I'll skip the math but if you want it, just ask me. I probably won't write up an answer but just refer you to authors more skilled than me at explaining this. But I will tell you this - it's really true (and mathematically prove-able) that the following is true: "It isn't that unusual, to have something very unusual happen to you." I know that sounds like a paradox but, it isn't. It's literally built into the fabric of the universe.

Why bother to say/write all of that? Because, Kel, I want to ease your mind and your heart, to (hopefully) lift a burden that does not and should not weigh down your heart. We live in a time when we have this idea of the power of psychology; that deep and dark forces in our personalities "attract" and create certain outcomes in our lives.

Kel, please don't take on any guilt or blame, don't take any responsibility for this situation. You nor your sister share some kind of character flaw or defect or weakness, that have gotten you into the situations you're in. My priest said last Sunday "If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans." Or now that I look it up on WikiQuote:


  • Der mentsh trakht un Got lakht. (Yiddish)
  • Man plans and God laughs.
  • English equivalent; Man proposes, God disposes.

Or last night I just finished watching the BBC 4-part series on Rome hosted by Mary Beard - she pointed out that the Romans were quite certain (it wasn't a matter of "faith" as we know it - they just knew that this was the way the world worked), that the gods messed around with the affairs (sorry about the pun) of people and that's just how things went.

The wisdom of the ancients is not to be derided just 'cause we live now and they lived then. Stuff happens and please, Kel, don't go thinking that this is somehow your fault. You just drew a bad hand. Take what good you can from it all, and move on.

Do your best, I wish good luck and good love to you and your sister both.
 

 

August 8, 2016 10:24 am  #3


Re: I think it's possible that my sister's husband may also be gay

Thanks, guys.

James, when I said that my sister and I both supported our husbands, I meant financially.  My ex was always out of a job, and my sister's dh just doesn't have one - doesn't have time for one because he's too busy on his own endeavors.  So I meant that for the only two females in my family (we have two brothers, too) - we both married men who needed to be financially supported, who (may) turned out to be gay.  While I often feel like it was the luck of the draw wrt the gay thing, the fact that both of us raised by the same parents have done the same thing (and we're 8 years apart - my sister and I) leads me to think there must be something in our family dynamic that made us both ripe for this.  My mother seemed to always have to take what my father dished out in the form of money.  He worked, she didn't, and she was only given money for what he deemed important.  So she would want a new carpet in the living room because the other one was worn through to the linolium, but my dad would say there's no money, and then he'd have a secret, new motorcycle stashed in the garage.  I think maybe both of us saw that level of chosen helplesness by my mother and decided that WE weren't going to be that way - we would be strong and capable and earn our own money.  We weren't going to be pigeon-holed into a traditional marriage where we did all the housework and he just mowed the lawn.  So we chose to be the masters of our own domain, and in the process, we forgot that we still needed a capable man to match us.  It just seems too coincidental that we've both lived out the same story.

Kel


You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
     Thread Starter
 

August 8, 2016 7:04 pm  #4


Re: I think it's possible that my sister's husband may also be gay

Kel, I read your OP but was away from town without my password and couldn't post.  I hate to see this happening to any Str8 man or woman and it pains me that your sister is going through the same thing.  Yes, I agree with James' analysis and I also agree with you about the family dynamic predisposing us to accept certain behaviors.  I have a sister who is probably gay married to a probably gay man.  Our entire family believes it to be a marriage of "gay convenience" but no one really cares one way or another. Did my XGIDH recognize this and feel comfortable with us?  

But it runs deeper than that.  My X is a bonafide Narcissist and so is my Sister.  She is bad to the bone and not in a good way just like my X. Okay, like a lot of things in my life I did not recognize this until it was all over, but I 100% believe that I was groomed from an early age to put up with a Narcissists bad behavior.  Unfortunately many N's are gay or have no boundaries period.  

If I can find a bright spot in your situation it is that I am glad that you can help your sister navigate TGT.  Who better than you Kel.  I hope you can help her get through the crazy.  


"No matter how hard the journey may be, remember to be kind to yourself..."
 

August 8, 2016 9:11 pm  #5


Re: I think it's possible that my sister's husband may also be gay

Hmmm - this is at least the fifth post that did not seem to come up on the day it was posted.  I logged on every day last week and never saw this post until just now.  Sam - if you're out there.....is there any chance of going back to the old site?    sorry. I know you work so hard at this.   Now that I've had a chance to get used to this one, it really does seem like the other one was easier to navigate.

Kel - I'm not sure if the gay part is that big of a coincidence.  Almost every day we have a new person here.  And several times last year I ran in to people who happened to mention TGT to me in passing without even knowing my situation.  Like: oh did you hear about xxxx, her husband was gay.  WHAT??  Or my ex boyfriend from high school who I keep in touch with once every year or so who told me his wife was a lesbian.   My dentists receptionist.  My neighbor.  My cousin's husband (the older he gets) looks more and more feminine.  He has recently started liking things on FB like Dance Moms and trendy clothing companies.  He called his friend his "bestie".  My OTHER cousin's husband was caught red handed with three men in their home while he was out "hunting".   These two cousins don't even know each other (other than they are from the same side of the family and might recognize the other one's name) and are 30 years apart in age.  idk what's going on here but it looks to me like the "statistics" here are way off.  I think the estimations of gay people everywhere are grossly underestimated. 

As for the part where you have to support them - your upbringing might be a factor.  I know that seeing my Mom totally dependent on my Dad for her weekly allowance, filling her car up with gas (she's 88 now and still doesn't know how to get gas) was a big factor in me deciding that just would not and could not be my path.  Although it was somewhat a choice on her part because she lived with friends until she was 26 and from what I understand was very self sufficient.  I have no idea what happened. 

I have noticed that while I haven't attracted the non-job people yet, I do tend to attract men who will let me do all of the organizing, list making, planning, etc.  I HATE that.  Even my GID ex who was at one time extremely self sufficient turned into someone who thoroughly enjoyed how organized I was.  It got to the point where he wouldn't even make his own flight plans to go home to see his parents.  I would be the one online at the last minute scheduling flights because if it were left up to him it wouldn't get done and I didn't want that to happen.  And HE WAS A PILOT. At one point he didn't even know the password to his own bank account.  Granted, money management is my line of work, he was lucky I was an honest person.  I could have taken every cent out of our accounts without him even knowing, even up until the very end when I had to remind him of what his passwords were so he could relearn how to pay bills on his own. 

I think there are two main types of people in life: those who do and those who are ok with letting others do.  And then there are some people who fall somewhere within that spectrum.  I think people sort of ebb and flow with the situation they are in and if you're more likely to take charge and organize then the other person sort of falls in line with that.  Maybe it's the same for jobless types. 

Whatever the reason - I can tell you that I'm entirely sick of hearing of more and more people every day who have been fooled for years. 

 

August 10, 2016 10:28 am  #6


Re: I think it's possible that my sister's husband may also be gay

IF my sister's dh is gay, she is in a very similar situation to what I was in.  She is already over him and has decided to move on.  If she finds out after separating that he's gay, it'll just be another thing to add to the pile.  With my ex, TGT was what was causing our biggest (in my eyes) issue - a lack of intimacy.  I don't think that's my sister's biggest issue - it's that her dh is a narcissist who doesn't work, and focuses solely on his own pleasure.  He's not being a provider or protector, and his version of being a dad is taking his girls out to fantastic places rather than spending any real time with them on a basic level.  He does not interact with them, he entertains them.  My sister is just.... DONE.  Just like I was when I finally threw in the towel with my ex.  It's a long, painful process to get there (while in the relationship), but it's a great spot to be in when you finally separate.  It's not full of the regular heartache and loneliness that can be typical for the end of a relationship.  She'll just glad to be rid of the problems and not have another kid to watch and pay for.

Even if my sister's dh doesn't wind up to be gay, it does say something about both of us that we stuck out our relationships until they were SO dead that it was dragging a corpse around.  That's how far we'll go before we stop trying.  I think it's a good thing in many ways (shows commitment and dedication and tenacity), but also says that we're willing to sacrifice ourselves on the alter way too much.  I know I learned my lesson.

Kel


You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
     Thread Starter
 

August 10, 2016 1:44 pm  #7


Re: I think it's possible that my sister's husband may also be gay

jk,

Have you ever seen a video of one of the monkeys at the zoo, where the momma monkey has a newborn that didn't make it, and she just can't let go of it yet?  She may hold the baby that way for days.  She sees its floppy little head and knows, but she still tries to see if it'll come back with some patience.  It's only when she's abandoned all hope and the baby is weighing her down (and probably begins to stink) that she can admit that putting it down doesn't make it any more dead than it already is.  She took her time coming to terms with it, but she did it.  It was so sad to watch, because when viewing it, it seems that you as the viewer know something that she doesn't seem to get.  Oftentimes, we are that momma monkey.  Our marriage is the dead baby.  And it has to become a burden to us before we can admit that carrying it around is not going to revive it.  That it's slowing us down and keeping others away from us.

Kel


You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
     Thread Starter
 

August 10, 2016 2:51 pm  #8


Re: I think it's possible that my sister's husband may also be gay

I used to work at the zoo when I was a teenager.  So I saw this scenario (momma monkey) play out several times in real life.  And Momma Monkey wasn't with the other monkeys in any interactive way.  She had essentially isolated herself to deal with her mourning.  And the other monkeys got the message - if they went over to her, they could sit in front of her, but she wasn't going to engage in her normal social behaviors.  She couldn't pick through their hair, looking for nits.  Her arms were full (keep in mind that even though a live newborn monkey would be work, it would cling to her, effectively freeing up her hands).  The weight of this dead little one doesn't distribute the same way as a live baby would - instead of being a centralized, compact weight, with the legs clinging to her and just feeling the weight of the baby's trunk, the floppy baby is all over - she can't control it, and it's.... messy.  She can't tuck a leg without an arm popping out.  It's much harder to carry this way and hinders her.  All the other animals get the picture - she won't interact - leave her alone.  She has no monkey consoling her, or even taking the baby to hold it so her arms can get a break.  IF they come over, they see the dead baby, attempt to pick its head up, and confirm that it's really dead.  Then they leave again.  Yep - nothing's changed over there; the thing is still dead and she's not putting it down.  She can't interact with us.  We'll move on until she can re-engage.  They don't try to PULL her back to re-engaging.  It'll happen on its own, in its own time.  The weight of the baby forces that, eventually.

Kel


You are not required to set yourself on fire to keep other people warm.
     Thread Starter
 

August 18, 2016 11:41 am  #9


Re: I think it's possible that my sister's husband may also be gay

Kel,  same situation here.  I'm here.  My sis and her husband have had little to no sex on their marriage, second marriage for both.  They didn't have sex while dating, his deal...wait till marriage...want to do this the right way...really gentleman... (both early 40's).  Wedding night...let's hold each other...wth?  Since they got married, he hasn't been able to hold a job...had no problem before the marriage...  I'm co dependent, in Alanon.  We grew up in alcoholic house, both parents.  Convinced she is codependent too and we both attract narcissistic closeted men.

 

August 18, 2016 4:22 pm  #10


Re: I think it's possible that my sister's husband may also be gay

I wonder if it isn't that the numbers are much higher than 5%.

I have two brothers.  I am pretty convinced one of them is married to a closet lesbian.  And the other one is married to a woman whose mother came out as a lesbian in later life.

I think there's more closet gay than we can poke a stick at.  We had a narcissist father.  nice mum.

maybe a correlation between closet gay and narcissist is they are both hiding the truth of themselves.

 

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