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November 12, 2016 4:14 am  #31


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Hi Sean and everyone

I'm intrigued to know how the gay partner rationalizes the 'sacrifice' of the straight partner, if you can help with that?  An example being, the many times I endured sexual rejection through months of no advances from him/him losing his erection with me which over the years caused me great distress.  I remember mourning the loss of my sex life in my late 20's/early 30's.  When I asked him about his thoughts and feelings he would say he'd spent all day thinking of me, he wanted to be close to me, hear me come etc.  His words didn't match his actions which was very confusing.  I know what's said about their lips moving, they're lying/manipulating, but I'm asking more about the thought processes.  How can a person, who proclaims to "love" another, witness/justify effects of their hurtful, destructive actions on another human being and be okay with it?  

Btw it kind of reminds me of boys at school who would pull off wasps' wings or spiders's legs which I would never have done because I knew it would damage the insect, thought it was unnecessarily cruel and would have made me feel guilty.  I'd really appreciate reading your thoughts and anyone else's on this matter, if I've made myself clear about what I'm asking.  Thanks in advance.

 

November 12, 2016 6:15 am  #32


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you for writing Janey. In reply:

1. I'm intrigued to know how the gay partner rationalizes the 'sacrifice' of the straight partner, if you can help with that?  An example being, the many times I endured sexual rejection through months of no advances from him/him losing his erection with me which over the years caused me great distress.  I remember mourning the loss of my sex life in my late 20's/early 30's.  When I asked him about his thoughts and feelings he would say he'd spent all day thinking of me, he wanted to be close to me, hear me come etc.  His words didn't match his actions which was very confusing.  I know what's said about their lips moving, they're lying/manipulating, but I'm asking more about the thought processes.  How can a person, who proclaims to "love" another, witness/justify effects of their hurtful, destructive actions on another human being and be okay with it?  

​These are excellent questions and I'll try to answer based on my experience. I remember the family room at my parents' house which had a fireplace. In the winters my dad would often light a fire and unfortunately he was terrible at it. So I'd be playing in our family room and very slowly, almost imperceptibly, it would get smoky. It would get smoky to a point that I couldn't see very well and would start coughing. So eventually I'd head outside. It was only when I was outside in the crisp winter air that I'd realize how difficult it was to breathe or even see inside the house. This is what I believe happened in my own marriage. All the fiery elements were there in the beginning: me the narcissist, self-absorbed, husband; she the co-dependent wife living completely for me; and this smouldering secret which hung over our relationship like a bad haze. In relationships, I think things get better or worse by almost imperceptible degrees. I've seen this happen with both gay and straight couples. I was very much interested in sex in my 20s. Who isn't? I was young, horny, had a lot of free time, and had convinced myself I was straight. Moreover, we were both in the flush of young love. Things changed in my late 20s and early 30s. We were both working and so we were often fatigued. We started having children which changes even the best of relationships. I think this follows the trajectory of both gay and straight couples. Bodies sag, the relationship becomes more work, and child rearing becomes the couples' primary focus. We went from passionate lovers to partners, to co-parents. The relationship became more routine. This is where a lot of couples I know start cheating but the gay in denial spouse like me accelerated the breakdown in the marriage for two reasons: I was in a relationship with the wrong gender so I had ZERO physical attraction to my wife; and I found a much more exciting sexual outlet in porn. To answer your question, I truly did love my (then) wife. But it was an almost paternal and completely non-sexual love. Besides the relationship was working perfectly for me. I had a home, a loving wife, kids she raised for the most part, and I was safely and secretly living out my gay sexual fantasies online. Perhaps I saw her suffering. Who knows. But I know I did nothing to change it. Why? Because it worked for me and it was all about me. The relationship had always been about me and she was my willing enabler. If she dared speak up or act out, I'd let loose my narcissistic arsenal to bring her back in line. It was cruel, heartless, and I so regret it now. But at the time, I was operating in such a haze of porn, lies, and denial that I couldn't see her suffering. I had convinced myself that our rocky relationship was her fault. Our lack of sex was her fault as well. What's f*cked up is at the time I truly believed it. ​I think that is what scared me so much. I was a gay man in denial and yet still blamed her for everything that was wrong in my life. It was so cruel it makes me cringe. she deserved so much better.    

2. Btw it kind of reminds me of boys at school who would pull off wasps' wings or spiders legs which I would never have done because I knew it would damage the insect, thought it was unnecessarily cruel and would have made me feel guilty.  I'd really appreciate reading your thoughts and anyone else's on this matter, if I've made myself clear about what I'm asking.  

​Perhaps. But I believe we gay in denial spouses are even worse. Rather than get our own hands dirty, I think we're the kids whispering in the ear of the bug torturer to tear off the wings or legs. We're the manipulators which just gave me a little shudder. There are many examples of this posted here and from my own relationship. For example, I convinced my wife she needed therapy when ​I was the problem. I needed the therapy. ​Whenever she initiated sex, I'd make it seem like she was doing something awful and on the rare occasions when we actually had sex, it made my skin crawl. I regret it all. I've read countless posts here when straight spouses still question whether their husbands are actually gay. And this is after they've seen photos or video of their husbands having sex with men! ​But I get it because I was there; both spouses are operating in a kind of haze. But the difference is that the gay spouse has one clear purpose: looking out for his own interests and the primary interest is hiding his true sexuality.

​I hope I answered your questions but I can't help but feel that I've rambled a bit. If you have more questions, please write again.        

Last edited by Séan (November 12, 2016 6:18 am)

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November 12, 2016 10:38 am  #33


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Even though I made a comment last week that I don't care anymore about the "why" I find I can't turn away from your responses, it's like watching the car crash that you can't look away from.  One of his responses to me at the end about the lack of sex or desire was he didn't want to lead me on. That remark, more than any other, will never leave me.

 

November 13, 2016 7:11 pm  #34


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

JK thank you for sharing this. You've come an incredibly long way in just a year so well done. I'd like to echo several things you wrote about in your post:

1. Accept Reality: Most gay/straight relationships were already pretty terrible. When I look back, mine was just God awful so feeling nostalgia about my broken relationship is useless. It's like dancing on the deck of a sinking ship. None of us want to go down to the bottom, but running around the deck like a mad person is a stressful waste of time. My ex-wife rightly got everyone into a life raft and then let me sink or swim on my own. I feel for the straight spouses who are still waiting for gay in denial ex-husbands and ex-wives to finally come out. Waiting on them to do the right thing puts you right back on the deck of the Titanic.   

2. Feeling Emotions: Anger and bitterness towards the gay (or gay in denial) spouse are necessary and healthy emotions. But over time I learned these emotions become toxic.  

3. Moving On: While it's healthy for a straight spouse to feel anger towards his/her gay ex, remaining angry for a lifetime is soul-destroying. For me and my ex-wife, we needed to move on. This means I had to stop pretending I was in a relationship. My daughter said to me recently, "I don't like seeing you together. It's like you're pretending again. You're divorced so you're not best friends."

​I realized that my ex-wife and I spent a lot of time wishing things would get better, rather than accepting reality. It was only when I truly accepted reality, namely that I was a gay man married to a woman, that I could then separate, divorce, and heal. Thanks for sharing JK as I've learned from your post.

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November 13, 2016 8:09 pm  #35


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

A straight spouse messaged me the following questions which I'm happy to answer below:

1. What is the state of mind of the gay husband following separation?

​I can't speak for all gay husbands, but I'm happy to share my state of mind following separation. I was alone and disoriented. I cried myself to sleep the first night we slept apart. My wife and kids moved away on a cold, snowy December 29th. Watching them drive away reduced me to tears and it took every ounce of self-control not beg my ex-wife to take me back. I guess my state of mind was that of a lifelong prisoner who suddenly gets paroled. I longed for the comfort and security of my prison cell. I had a terrible marriage and fully accept the failure of my marriage was 100% my fault. But like a prison cell, at least it was something. ​Whereas now I was faced with nothing but myself and I truly hated myself. Near the end of my marriage, I was emotionally abusive to my wife. I truly regret this, asked her for forgiveness, she forgave me, and I'm trying to move on. The most difficult situation for abusive people like me is to find ourselves alone. Because once alone, I turned all of those terrible feelings against myself. So my state of mind in the early days of separation was that of a paroled prisoner.  

2. He now wants to be a good dad, after being absent for years. You mentioned something about 'gay adolescence' and I have no idea what he'll be doing during this phase. What should I be concerned about regarding my children?

To skip to my answer, please see #3 'out and raging below.'
Gay men are generally people pleasers, starved for attention. We want to be the best dressed, most muscular, or funniest people because of a deep need for validation and acceptance. This need comes from a lifetime of me feeling less than. There are several phases of coming out: denial which is the "I'm not gay" phase; splitting which was when I was married to a woman and yet having sex with men; out and raging which is a period of 'catching up' marked by extreme self-centredness and promiscuity; and the final phase is living openly and honestly as a gay man. During the out and raging or gay adolescent phase, I was looking for love and attention anywhere I could find it. I regressed to being a teenager who only thought about sex, fun, and friends. What did this mean for my kids? Let's look at this through the various stages of coming out:

1. Denial: During this period, I was a good father. I think it was a strange mix of actually being a good dad while pretending at the same time. While I did things with my wife and kids, I think I was more motivated by a desire to look like the perfect family.

​2. Splitting: ​This is when I started cheating on my (then) wife. It was a time of intense anger when my wife and children had to walk on eggshells to placate me. We are all taught from a young age that we must never cheat while married. Not only was I cheating, but I was a disgusting faggot having sex with men which only compounded my feelings of guilt. And yet strangely I expressed my guilt through outward anger. I was a complete *sshole during this phase.

3. Out and Raging: ​This is the 'gay adolescent' phase I described above. For me, it was impossible to be a good father while trying to have sex with as many men as possible. My ex-wife once asked me to be careful when my gay friends were around our kids. She was alluding to an outdated idea that all gay people are child abusers which is complete bunk. But I believe this is a vulnerable time for both the gay ex-husband and children often traumatized by divorce. Everyone is feeling rather raw and vulnerable. During this phase, I desperately wanted my kids to accept my homosexuality and I fear I went too far. I took my son on a group ski trip organized by some gay friends. Although 90% of the people on the trip were straight or straight couples, I didn't tell him I knew the gay organizers which was stupid of me. During this time, my two youngest spent the weekend and I had a gay couple over for dinner. Again I didn't tell the kids for fear mom would react negatively and the kids were very uncomfortable. This is a phase when many gay men risk moving too fast with new relationships. We mistake love for lust and are sometimes too quick to introduce the new love interest. "Here's your new daddy!" By some miracle, I didn't do this. While I've been with my boyfriend for roughly four years, he has yet to meet my kids. Why? Because none of us are ready. My children know who he is, they know his name, and they also know that they'll meet him when they're ready and not before. I've told my ex-wife this although she no longer believes anything I say. Why would she? Getting back to your question:

What should I be concerned about regarding my children?

​My ex-wife's main concern was that I or my many gay partners would sexually abuse our children. For decades, we were taught that gay men were all child abusers when the facts disprove this. Most sexual predators are straight men who abuse boys and girls. So I'd recommend talking to a child psychologist about how to properly discuss abuse and the coming out process without alarming your kids. I'd also get ready for some "rainbow" moments which amount to your ex-husband trying to get the kids to accept dad's homosexuality. This may involve introducing gay friends or even a boyfriend in an attempt to gain love, acceptance, and approval from the kids. Rarely do these first relationships work out because the gay ex-husband often attracts partners who are broken like him. Again I'd talk to the kids about this, "You know dad loves you and he wants you to accept that he's gay so he'll probably find a boyfriend some day." I'd recommend discussing these issues with a mental health professional or a straight spouse like Kel who has successfully navigated these waters.

​I hope that answered your question but please feel free to reach out again. 

 

   

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November 13, 2016 9:41 pm  #36


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you, Sean, for taking time to read my post & answer my questions. Unfortunately, I’ve been hanging out in ‘limbo land’ since I discovered the gay porn pics/videos in 2013. Since then, the only questionable thing I found was a link to ‘queer literature’, that he again denied. Regardless of whether I believed him or not, I realized I no longer trusted him, if I had to constantly check his phone/tablet. to me, that’s not a marriage if the trust is gone. So why am I still in the marriage? Because I want ‘more’. more proof. I know that’s horrible, but I feel like I need more evidence. He hasn’t changed his appearance (in wardrobe or physically); he doesn’t travel; he leaves his phone/tablet around without a password. Nothing except the months of gay porn/etc from 3 yrs ago. That should be enough, for I know in my heart that straight married men do not look at gay porn or pics of naked men, at least not for months. He could care less about sex (often says he’s tired, or it’s his antidepressants), doesn’t seem to desire me, etc. I know he probably has SSA, but that he doesn’t want to. His only sibling, his brother, is gay, & his now deceased mother never accepted it. She refused to. So he was her ‘golden boy’: her straight son, married to a doctor (for 21 yrs), w 2 kids (a boy & a girl). He has every reason to suppress that attraction, for he would ‘lose it all’. 
I apologize for rambling, but I’ve been stuck for so long, I find myself ‘rambling’ in my marriage also. If I am the one to say ‘enough’, I feel like I will be blamed, unless I have more concrete ‘evidence’. I worry that others will think i’ve made a mtn out of a mole hill. And yet, I think about it every. single. day. 
sigh. 

thank you for your honesty & your concern, for wanting to help us on this horrible journey we didn’t ask to go on.

CT

 

November 13, 2016 10:58 pm  #37


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Sean I've been reading your posts and responses and think you are very brave in what your doing here. Thank you for helping us to understand and giving us insight. May you be blessed in your journey.

Cherrytree. I echo your post. It is as if one is looking for more evidence to give you that courage to finally break free. I've been looking everywhere for something more concrete so that he will have to confess and I will know for sure I am not making a mistake. That is a horrible place to be. Knowing what you know. Obsessing about what you know. Always doubting yourself. Then theres the clear moments when you realize you cannot stay in a marriage thats a lie and sucks the life out of you. Slipping back  into wanting to find more proof. Its sickening when you always have been the type of person who takes action.

I've been advised here to not wait for him to confess but it is as if I cannot bring myself to utter the divorce-word. I hate myself for being so weak.

Sorry for venting on this thread.

Mrs Lonely

 

November 14, 2016 5:46 am  #38


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

Thank you all for sharing. You've described the period of questioning his sexuality as "limbo" and a "haze." What you're feeling is something similar to the questioning period every gay person experiences. Even in the face of overwhelming proof, it can be a time of self doubt, hesitation, and depression. I've read countless posts here where straight spouses just want their gay husbands to "tell the truth" and "own it." As you've so bravely shared above, this is easier said than done...for both spouses.

​Mrs Lonely wrote: "I hate myself for being so weak."
​Cherrytree wrote: "I think about it. every. single. day."

​You've perfectly described the gay-in-denial spouse's state of mind. You also mentioned feeling "stuck" in a sexless marriage. In my case, I felt it was easier to simply limp along rather than suffer the upheaval of separation and divorce. I only acted when faced with a questioning wife and thoughts of suicide. Don't let it come to that my friends. You deserve better than lying husbands and years of depression. You deserve partners who love and desire you. Unfortunately, my wife would never have this with me, a gay man. As painful as it was, we ended it and have started to heal a few years later. I hope that helps in some way. Thanks again for sharing your stories.

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November 16, 2016 2:01 am  #39


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

From a member: "Should I spend Christmas with my soon-to-be ex-husband? My husband and kids want us to have family time together."

This sounds very familiar. In fact, my (then) wife and I tried two very sad Christmases together in 2012 and 2013. We tried to do the right thing "for the kids" when I believe I was just scared to spend Christmas alone when that's exactly what I deserved. So my wife and I went ahead with forced smiles around the Christmas tree. I remember our nightmarish Christmas in 2013. I was hooking up with every man in town, my wife knew it, and yet we went through the ruse of a 'family Christmas' together. My youngest son, who was 5 or 6 at the time, just couldn't take the stress and actually passed out while opening presents. That got our attention and my ex-wife moved out the following year.

Looking back, my only advice would be to listen to your heart. Be mindful that you no longer need to pretend. No one is going to die if you don't spend Christmas together. This is just one of many steps towards everyone accepting the relationship is truly over. Although they'll fight for the 'classic' Christmas, it's because they all want dad to show up straight, say he's sorry, and sweep you off your feet. But that's not going to happen.

For a time, you're probably going to be the *sshole for exposing the truth, namely that dad's gay and you just can't f*cking pretend anymore. But in a few years everyone will probably thank you.

If he's still pushing for Christmas together, then I say let him organize it. Let him buy the gifts, set up the tree, cook a meal, and you'll all show up at whatever location he's chosen...but not your home. That's your space now. Now that's a dream date if I've ever heard of it. But the reality is probably more like he wants to be in your home while you've prepared everything, done all the shopping etc. Well I say "f*ck that." If he wants Xmas together, and the price is you pretending yet again, then let him do the work. Don't raise a finger. Buy yourself a bottle of champagne, sit back, and enjoy your day off. Just rewards after all.

​I hope that helps in some small way.

Last edited by Séan (November 16, 2016 2:03 am)

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November 16, 2016 9:16 am  #40


Re: A gay ex-husband answers your questions

In your words:

"I do NOT want to celebrate holidays, with my STBX...We could all be together, and the entire celebration be horrible right now. I do NOT want to pretend, just to make him feel better...I do need to be careful to not anger my STBX.  Our divorce paperwork is not, yet, signed.  If he gets angry, he may not agree to what I am asking, and I believe it all to be fair and reasonable and in the  best interests of our children."

Thank you for sharing JK. I'm sorry you and so many other straight spouses are being held hostage by deadbeat ex-husbands (or soon to be ex-husbands in your case). Time and time again, I'm struck by how you're all nobly trying to do the right thing, even in the face of lying, cheating, and deceptive former spouses. I'd share your feelings with your kids, then ask for their input. While they may not be able to verbalize how they feel, you'll be giving them an excellent example of sharing your own feelings.

​Of course you can't put your divorce settlement at risk. Given what you shared, it doesn't appear that kicking him out put your settlement at risk. And this was when he really wanted to stay together. So perhaps spending Christmas apart isn't too risky? Your call.

​Regardless, I'd urge you to think about yourself. If you do spend Christmas together, do it on your terms. He organizes and executes it. Mom's been through enough so she gets to relax, have a glass of wine, and let others serve her for a change. A relaxing meal in exchange for a gay husband seems fair in my humble opinion. Be well.   
 

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