Thanks for sharing Butterfly. In reply: 

1. Thank you Sean. I must listen to some of your podcasts. Just a few things that are on my mind. My husband says he only started 'hooking up' with 3 men over the past year. Do I take it this is bull?

Let's not lose sight of his admission here: he admitted to cheating on you, and cross dressing for, 3 men in the past year. For most wives, that's 3 too many. Cheaters use a common minimzation tactic which often sounds like this: "Yes I was with another man back in March, but we didn't do anal." So it's a dose of truth (with another man) followed by some bullsh*t mind trick (and yet I showed restraint by not taking it up the *ss). In my opinion, the story ends with the headline: "Husband admits to year-long gay affair with 3 separate men." In response to your question, he hasn't been swapping cookie recipes on gay hook up sites/apps since 2016. So I think we can safely assume he's been cheating on you since at least 2016. 7 years x 3 men/year = at least 21 different male lovers. 

2. I am assuming they have sex and he is watering it down.

Again, let's not forget the headline here: "Husband admits to year-long gay affair with 3 separate men." His claims of "we didn't kiss" or "it was just blowjobs" don't change the headline one iota. He's been cheating on you with men. 

3. He says he feels deep shame and feels dirty after - but no one is putting a gun to his head to go.

Truth! 

4. He said one of the men had started wanting more and threatened if he did not do what he wanted he was coming to my home!! So one person knows where I live, which is worrying to me. 

Worrying yes; likelihood of a spontaneous visit from a jaded gay lover...low; but perhaps also an opportunity for you to check-mate your cheating husband.

If I'm reading the above correctly, he wants you to believe something like: "God then my husband has absolutely no choice but to keep f*cking this man...you know, to protect our family! What a hero." Erm no. For me, it's more horsesh*t. I reckon he's trying to distract you from the headline once again while also painting himself as a victim. The headline is still "Husband admits to year-long gay affair with 3 separate men."

But herein lies an opportunity to fully expose his lies/lying. Your husband stupidly opened the door on another (likely) bullsh*t lie so you are now completely justified in asking for this so-called stalker's: 

- Name 
- Photo 
- Age
- Address
- Mobile number
- Social media 
- Marital status

After all, you need this information to protect your family. If you really want to make your husband sweat, I'd also insist on talking to the police about all of this and getting a restraining order. Start asking for, and writing down, all of these details because closeted liars always get lost in the details. After all, in your husband's own words, your safety and the safety of your children is now at risk. Newsflash: he's never going to share this information. And why? Because he's lying of course. 

So what's my point? The common scenario is a cheating/closeted husband who hooks up with another married man, a co-worker, or a neighbour. The lover is close enough socially or geographically to out the husband by talking to his wife. (Don't worry because they never do.) So he's terrified this other man will somehow contact his spouse about the affair and blow up the husband's bullsh*t lies/spin. The closeted husband panics and has to paint this boyfriend/lover as crazy or deraged as a f*cked up form of cover...which is what I believe your husband is doing at the moment.

While I don't have a lot of information here, I reckon he's had a years-long affair with a fellow (harmless) closeted husband/father in your area. He's now likely portraying this fellow middle-aged family man with a dad-bod to you as some inked, leather-clad, hard-drinking criminal mastermind. And why? Because if you knew the truth - this is/was probably a long-term and consensual sexual relationship - it would blow up his whole "I'm a VICTIM!!!" bullsh*t narrative. Again I'm going out on a limb here but I'd urge you to insist on getting all the details about this "dangerous" man...if not for any reason other than to confirm your husband is incapable of being honest about his cheating/sexuality. If your husband refuses to elaborate and/or share any details beyond trying to scare you, then he's lying...yet again.   

5. Whether he is gay, bisexual, trans - he is very confused. BUT as he is attracted in some way to men sexually that will always be there - no matter what?

Correct. Sexuality is hard-wired. It's not a choice. 

6. I don't see any point in doing couples work, I just need to keep myself grounded and listen to what is best for ME.

100% agree! 

7. The kids are on school holidays tomorrow so I am going to head away with them on my own for a couple of weeks. Some space needed and being at home is hard.

Great idea. 

8. My husband is only thinking of himself and his pain/torment.

And doesn't seem to give a f*ck about your pain/torment. 

9. When I look back on things I realise that he has been very selfish. Living a 'double life' must consume a lot of energy. Out of interest when you speak about the times when you were married and were hooking up with men, did you feel sorry for your wife/kids, or were you in complete denial/compartmentalised it?

I was in full-blown gay adolescence, so yes I was in complete denial about how all of this was affecting my (then) wife and children. 

10. I am thinking of all the times he came home after what he did and just slotted back into pretend normal.

Almost as if he'd been doing it for decades. Strange how he never spoke of these "dangerous" lovers, and the potential risks to his wife/family, until he got caught pink handed.  

11. At the moment he is being very egocentric! Thank you again. 

Thank you for sharing friend. For every straight spouse like you bravely posting here, there are hundreds following your journeys. Enjoy your holiday with the kids! 

Last edited by Sean01 (June 30, 2023 5:44 am)

Thanks Butterfly. In reply: 

1. I do have this mans [husband's sex friend] name and phone number. The name does not seem familiar to me. Do I call this man and ask him what he has been doing with my husband? 

No. The name and number are likely fake anyway. I'd suggest discussing all of this with your therapist. Given what you've shared in previous posts I don't think you're quite ready to have a sit down with your husband's f*ck buddy while still working through the shock of discovery. I would however suggest bringing up a restraining order against this man with your husband. His reaction will demonstrate if he's telling the truth about the affair. 

2. My husband is trying to shower me with gifts, flowers, trip to a health spa. He is saying he is going to fight so hard for me etc etc...Is this part of the familiar script?!

Unfortunately, yes. Clinically I believe it's called "love bombing" but I refer to it as a "honeymoon phase." Following discovery of gay cheating, the closeted/questioning husband does everything he can to secure his wife back in the relationship. He might initiate sex A LOT; both to secure you back in the marriage while trying to prove his heterosexuality. Again I urge you to get tested for STDs/STIs and only use condoms with your husband going forward. The honeymoon phase only lasts about 2-3 months after which time he'll revert back to his old self. 

Thanks for sharing and please keep the questions coming. Be well! 

Thank you for writing Moppy. In reply: 

1. Sean, I feel like you are looking into the crystal ball that is my life and predicting every event. It is so wild how specific these patterns are! He brought up a mole that will need to be biopsied by the dermatologist "in three months" that looks "very concerning." He's tried to make his way back into the home (didn't let him). He is playing the victim hardcore because of that. 

Quite often when the closeted/questioning husband is losing control of his wife, his marriage and the narrative surrounding his "same sex attraction", he does the following: 

- He fakes (or threatens) suicide
- He creates a health scare
- He comes up with a "I was sexually abused" narrative 

And why? I reckon he's attempting to re-establish the victim (him) and saviour (his spouse) dynamic while also distracting from the main headline: "I'M GAY!" Turning now to your situation, if he has a biopsy in three months it doesn't sound like his mole is life-threatening.  

2. He is sensing his loss of control and absolutely spiraling because of that. My go to answer every time I catch him in a lie is "interesting." I am trying my absolute hardest to not engage or to even let on that I know as much as I know. 

Smart. I believe this is called going "grey rock." Here is a better definition: [url=https://www.talkspace.com/blog/grey-rock-method/#:~:text=The%20grey%20rock%20technique%2C%20also,avoid%20feeding%20into%20their%20tendencies.]link[/url].  

3. Since I last posted, I
-told my whole family and he told his mom
-we told our kids today (so far has been the hardest milestone)
-talked to lawyers and have appts set up
-have an appt for STD/STI testing
-have a new, secular counsellor all to myself 

Wow! You mentioned: "he told his mom." Feel free to share more about this. Be prepared for some frantic "Why are you doing this to him?" calls/texts from your mother-in-law. 

4. Also, you are completely right about the christian community thing. The only people that have been dismissive are those that deeply believe it's all a choice and that he's just gone rogue. They don't understand that he has been emotionally abusive all along to a certain extent and it's just all gotten progressively worse. They also imply that if he were to "repent", I'd happily take him back after 10 years of lying, manipulating, gaslighting, and cheating, on top of the fact that he genuinely just isn't attracted to me? Um.... no thank you. Unfortunately this was the response I got from my dad. He told me to do a bible study on marriage.............he also said we should talk to a pastor.... I wanted to say well the last time he did that, he had sex with him hahahaha

Tragic. I no longer argue with stupid and that includes "virgin birth believers" and "pray the gay away" people who are brainwashed into believing my sexuality is a choice. It isn't. The easiest way to counter "choicers" is to ask: 

- When did you choose to be straight?
- Why don't you choose to be gay for a month and let me know how that goes?  

5. The community I do have though outside of that is outstanding. They are truly carrying me through this and I'm so grateful. I have the best support system I could imagine.

Excellent. 

6. ​Okay. Here are my narcissist questions, *ahem* Does being closeted and married to a woman cause you to become a narcissist? Can I assume everyone I know that is in a MOM [mixed orientation marriage] (and believe me, I know a lot of 'em) is a narcissist? I know you can't say for certain but, ya know, what do you think?

I'd discuss all of this with a non-religious mental health professional. Please listen to my podcasts to learn more about my gay-in-denial narcissism. I am 100% against mixed orientation marriages (MOMs) between gay (not bi) men and straight women. And why? The majority of gay/straight MOMs fail. Moreover, anyone who has attempted a MOM always lived to regret it and those who claim to be happy in gay/straight marriages are usually drunk on religious dogma and denial.  

7. Does the closet turn you into a narcissist?

In my situation, yes. 

8. OR is it that only gay narcissists are the only ones that can successfully marry women because they are so good at duping everyone?

If anyone wants to determine whether their questioning/closeted spouses suffer from personality disorders, please discuss this with a mental health professional. In response to your question, spending decades in my closet gave me certain skills, namely: 

- I was supremely talented at distracting everyone from my "fabulousness" 
- I was incredibly sensitive to other's emotions
- I learned to manipulate others

Using my relationship as an example, my ex-wife and I were drawn to each other because our relationship was totally about me. And when I could no longer charm/distract her from our many relationship issues, I resorted emotional abuse. 

9. Are all of the other gay people that aren't narcissists just like "nah, I can't marry someone of the opposite sex, I'll just come out now"?

Yes. Whether a man comes out or remains closeted often depends on many factors: age; generation; religion; and family to name a few. If a gay boy/man lives in an accepting city/state/country, has an LGBTQ-friendly family, and isn't brainwashed by his family that gay is "evil" then he normally wouldn't consider marrying a woman. If however that gay man was programmed by his family, friends, and religious community into believing that marriage to a woman could "fix" him, then he'd seek out an opposite sex partner.   ​

10. I guess I'm just curious if he had never married me if he would be a narcissist. My husband's dad is a narcissist as well and I can't believe I never made the connection. I was aware that the dad was but never my husband. And my husband hates him and doesn't have a relationship with him. 

Narcissism is a personality disorder. Homosexuality is a sexual orientation. They are completely separate. In response to your question, I reckon personality disorders develop during childhood and/or adolescence. 

11. The irony is, so many of his decisions with our children are to be "different" than what he went through as a child. I genuinely believe he does want good for them, l think.... but he doesn't see that is putting them through exactly what he went through, with a gay twist. 

I'm not an expert on narcissism so I'd urge you to discuss all of this with a mental health professional who specializes in personality disorders. As for your husband turning into his father, this is a common occurence...regardless of sexual orientation.  

12. In response to your other questions:

Will he [husband] ever be able to see that? Perhaps in time and after years of therapy. 
And is there a genetic piece there? Unknown. 
If so, how the hell do I not raise cute little mini narcissists? Again, I'd discuss this with a mental health professional. I believe my own narcissism stemmed from a complete inability to acknowledge, express, and feel my emotions. I reckon you're setting an excellent example now by calling "bullsh*t" on this whole situation. 
Do narcissists know they are lying? Unknown. For me personally, I outwardly acted as if all of my bullsh*t were true. However, deep down I knew I was lying about my sexuality. 
Do they know what they're doing is wrong? In my situation, yes. And that shame often led me to lash out. 

13. How hard has recovering from narcissism been for you? How on earth do you go from viewing everything from such a selfish lens to having empathy? I really didn't know that was possible. Are you doing it, or is the very reason you're on this forum to get some glory and feel better about what you did?

As I've shared in my various podcast interviews, I think I suffered from a form of gay-in-denial narcissism. Once I'd come out, divorced, and was totally accepted by my friends/family, I no longer needed my narcissistic tools to deny reality, control my (former) wife, nor manage my shame. However, you make a valid point that I'm likely sharing here to seek validation/approval. 

14. Regardless of your intentions, you have pertinent insight and I just can't even fathom where I would be if I hadn't had this expediting of the process. My life feels like shit right now but we're gonna make it, huh? Cheers!

That's very kind of you. Yes things are sh*tty at the moment and I'm so very sorry you and your children are suffering. However, this short-term pain will likely be less damaging than spending a lifetime in your husband's closet. I hope that helps friend. Be well! 

 

The Covert Narcissism podcast was helpful for me to explain some of the behaviour that was going on, and how I got caught up in it. The episodes are short. It gets a bit tedious after a while, but you can pick and choose ones that sound relevant to you.

You sound like a strong, resourceful person (I've read your other posts) and it seems like you're really doing a great job handling all of this!
 

Sean,
I listened to your podcast interviews and they’re SOO helpful for me…. THANK YOU!!!

I’m not sure what phase of grief this may be, but I found myself laughing a lot in agreement, and that’s much better than crying.

Question:
He admitted years ago he “struggles against same sex attraction” and more recently stated that his fantasy is to be “pursued and ridiculed.”   What does that mean?   

He’s also admitted he has “arousal intertwined with exposure.”  I guess I’m just curious how that plays out, too.