Canary, please don't think you're wasting time posting here - you are helping us all.  And I have to say the way you have grasped the picture so quickly and comprehensively is impressive.  So I think that's the best we can do, see things the way they are - on the bright side, being a trusting sort has a lot going for it as well as the hidden pits we are prey to falling into.  and anyway, I don't think you can change it.  Recognising the signs of a trap even as I'm falling into it, learning to act fast - these are the things that are helping me the most.

Having added in the other side of the equation - all the women in the closet, I have got to the point now that it is more like see if I can spot a straight couple - the picture of a heteronormative society is slipping off the wall.  I have found that I have grown used to it though.  It's the suffering husbands that get me but I also know it doesn't matter who it is, the manipulator will not only win but take a bite out of me if I say anything.  

I think that highlights how valuable this forum is.

Sean, one of the tropes amongst gay people, particularly bisexuals, is that they know both sides of the coin.  Sorry, no, you do not know what it is like to be straight any more than I know what it is like to be gay.  Like Diff says, it's different.

From my perspective, while I genuinely value your input you and Diff have danced around the topic of sexual orientation without any more purpose than adding more fluffy word salad around it.

My point is this.  For the myriad of different sexual expressions and mating behaviours, there are basic building blocks which achieve this profusion.

And it feels to me like orientation is the most basic.  One or the other, like a magnet.  eg, there's a reason you want to take a man's clothes off, but don't feel like that about a woman no matter how romantic you feel towards her, Diff.  

Even if I were blind it wouldn't make any difference, it's the feeling of it, I need the emotionality of a straight man as well as the body to get the sparks flying.

Heterosexuals get shamed for their sexuality growing up just like everyone else but we aren't growing up with a parent who is pretending to be straight when they're not.  That adds a whole new dimension, I imagine.  

Last edited by lily (April 25, 2023 7:12 pm)

Sean,
I do have another question for you, and not sure if this is a sensitive topic for people. If so, you don’t have to answer it.
I seem to be a closet gay male magnet, and I want to change that if possible. Put me in a room full of 20 random men - and I will both be attracted to and attract every closet gale male. I am like the canary in the coal mine for closet gay men - in the worst way possible. This is the (I believe) third time this has happened to me. One of my prior relationships was 7 years, ended a few weeks before an engagement when I at the time thought he was gay (a few signs but not overwhelming). He within the next year of our relationship went on to marry someone VERY similar to me both physically and intellectually. At the time I thought I was crazy for thinking he was gay. But as it turns out, he all these years has kept a long-standing friendship with the “friend” of my most recent date. So, I am now coming to the realization that several of my most significant relationships were with closet gay men. And they all seem to know each other. My story would likely make a very good book. Maybe it’s just that I live in a city with a very high gay male population - but there is also a very high lesbian population and I am almost never hit on by women. I don’t think this was just bad luck or my imagination that the woman who followed me was very similar to myself. We are basically twins.  Both physically and intellectually/career wise.

I can’t change a lot of who I am, but I’m curious as a question for you. As a closet gay male, are there certain types of women that work better in a relationship for closet gay men?  Is it a conscious/or subconscious target?  Are there certain people (either physical or intellectually) that you would never be attracted to or think of approaching?  And do most men know this - or are they doing it subconsciously?  I noticed that my most recent date tends to avoid certain women like the plague (and certain men). Maybe it’s not that black and white - but I want to cultivate some aspects of myself that are the woman they avoid like the plague. Since I can’t seem to see them coming. I want to be that woman that they see and just head the other direction. It’s too difficult for me to decipher and I seem to not have a way of sending someone is gay until I’m months (if not years) into it.  So my solution is to not even attract them in the first place.  I’m very curious about this, to avoid being in this situation again because I don’t want to yet again be in a loveless relationship.

Some of my qualities I’m sure could be framed as positives OR negatives - but I’m wondering if these make me a good fit for someone trying to stay in the closet. One thing that I sadly have found  (and confusing) in these relationships is they tend to have a VERY strong emotional bond. For example, the relationship frequently starts off as a very strong “friendship” although I really love the physical bond - but that I need to have the emotional aspect to enjoy. I almost never just start things off with a purely physical relationship. It’s not that I have a problem with other people who like this - I just don’t find it appealing at all. I also seem to be attracted to men who are probably gay. I don’t know what it is, but I DON’T tend to be attracted to your average very masculine male. I don’t always have a physical “type”, but I frequently am attracted to intellectual skinny guys, nerdy. The intellectual covert narcissist seems to be my guy. And they are frequently your average out gay guy’s dream. I can’t tell you how many times my date has been ogled by gay men in the vicinity. This is a recipe for disaster for me repeatedly attracting the wrong men. I also have a very busy work life, and am probably intelligent book and science, but maybe don’t pick up on subtle social cues as well.

And do you look for a physical “type” and an emotional/intellectual “type” that would be a good fit. I have no doubt now that some may be a good compromise before coming out of the closet. ie the last stop. I would like to not be the last stop anymore. I have my suspicions of why I was a target - and the bad part of this is, many of these qualities I don’t really want to try to change about myself. I believe they are actually good qualities. So, what kinds of women would a gay closet make avoid like the plague??

The thing I noticed was my most recent date had a dislike for overtly sexual women. I’m suspicious, any women who were sexually aggressive and perceived this way. This came across as simply someone who valued very conservative values - but I think it’s really a conscious avoidance of these types because they know a woman like this would give them immediate pressure in the bedroom. This pisses me off.  Or maybe it is an avoidance of women who are very intuitive or experienced.

My latest relationship seemed to pick up stakes and run as soon as he realized that I was picking up on his lies relatively quickly (or faster than his ex wife ever did). So is it mostly the desire to have a partner who may not be aware of the lies/hidden life?  Would a closet case intentionally target a woman who would be unaware of his lifestyle?

Or is it inherently someone who will neglect their own needs (particular physical) to support primarily their partner’s?  I know not everyone fits into a mold of who they would find attractive - but I’m curious if you believe there are some common qualities in the female partner of a closet gay male. I’m sorry if this is sensitive and long winded. You don’t have to answer all of this if you think it’s not good to talk about, but I’m curious from your perspective what I’m doing wrong. Or what I can do to change this.

Last edited by Canary2 (April 26, 2023 10:07 am)

Thanks for writing Canary. In response to the question: how can I stop attracting closeted gay men? I reckon you answered your own question with this: 

"The thing I noticed was my most recent date had a dislike for overtly sexual women. I’m suspicious, any women who were sexually aggressive and perceived this way. This came across as simply someone who valued very conservative values - but I think it’s really a conscious avoidance of these types because they know a woman like this would give them immediate pressure in the bedroom." 

Bingo! Gay men like me aren't interested in sex with women. As I've posted and shared in different "Our Path" podcast interviews, the biggest pink flag with a closeted/questioning husband is his almost total avoidance of sex with his wife. If you still find yourself attracting a lot of narcissists, whether gay or straight, I'd read up on co-dependency (www.coda.org) or perhaps explore it with a qualified therapist. Narcissists and co-dependents come together like fish and chips. So if you are: sexually assertive; self-confident; and have strong boundaries, you should avoid most damaged men. I hope that helps friend but feel free to post again. Be well!

Last edited by Sean01 (April 26, 2023 1:16 pm)

Anon,
   I found that my now-ex said so many hurtful things that I had to stop allowing this kind of talk.  He seemed incapable of imagining or understanding how the things he said hurt me. Finally I told him I wasn't the proper person to talk to, and he needed to talk to his therapist.  I limited our conversations to the logistics of the divorce.  Maybe that is a strategy that would help protect you, too.  

Last edited by OutofHisCloset (April 26, 2023 7:38 pm)

okay, can we go one question at a time -

Do you believe a bisexual man is a good match for a straight woman?